I'm a WS, in A, strongly unwilling to quit.<p>Brief history- husband great on paper, very nice guy, submissive, supportive, tries hard, misses.
Married 16 years, kids, tried hard many years to make things work, counselling etc.
Certain aspects of him repel me on level of sexual & personality- I never really bonded to him.
Fell in love with OM 11 years ago- didn't let on.
OM's wife kicked him out- escalated misunderstandings, different cultural backgrounds.
OM and I got a bit friendlier on e mail but wasn't going anywhere and I felt despair- I believed he MUST know my feelings - I decided to get OUT of association. It was tough, I was miserable about it, but wrote letter, mentioning my feelings.
He hadn't realized. Now he was interested in me and asked my help. I couldn't bring myself to tell him to shove off. We e mailed for a few weeks, dancing around, cautious, till he invited me over.
Affair ever since, four months now.
The whole time he's been talking seriously of leaving state because of legal problems, but he doesn't want to leave his kids- he's very close with them and sees them regularly. We know A won't last indefinitely and he doesn't want me to hurt my kids by leaving them. Although I would rather be with OM than H, I absolutely would not desert my kids. (age 4-15)
My husband knows all this and has come to terms with it- he's less stressed and anguished than I am about it. We're like flatmates raising the kids together. Plan B is impossible, for kids' sakes.
Meanwhile OM and I need one another and adore one another, and he treats me like a queen but has problems...I miss him so much when I don't see him (once a week) and I feel insecure in that relationship for various reasons.
My biggest concern is the terrible scandal if this gets out to kids, mine or his, or to any community in this small city.
I tried to get out of A several times, OM doesn't want to let me go, easily talks me into continuing, and the serious contemplation of backing out makes me feel incredibly miserable.
If there is anyone out there who has been through or is going through anything like this or can help me, please contact me, I feel very vulnerable.

Rely on your H for help here.<p>Draft a "no contact" (with OM) letter...
...and agree with your H that he (your H) will have all access to your communications...<p>...and money<p>...and whatever else it takes.<p>If there is contact by the OM...
...your H must know about it!<p>Without this step... you will be in a long-term mire of distress!<p>Do start on a Plan A...
Check out my post Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.).<p>You are no were near...
...nor should you be near... Plan B (with your H)!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim / NSR<p>P.S.
If you are new to the MB forums... start off at a General Welcome.

birdinacage,<p>You always have a freind in here as long you are seeking to save your M. I saw your post to boots I avoid to answer it since I have many BS needs help around here. I am glad that you could see that A is not forever ... you 've realized that you can not have happy ending on this A of yours. You have more to loose than OM. NSR already gave you answer of no contact, post back for more questions if you need help on this. Please read this link from trueheart a WS like you and find her happiness w/ H. Also read The lament of a WS , a WS which also unwilling but now is fighting for his M.<p>In MB, we beleive that if one willing to receive and the other willing to give, under the 4 gifts of love, you could make the recepient fall in love. Give no contact and give your M a chance.<p>IMVHO, like NSR pointed out, give OM a no contact letter ... if he black mail you, let your H stand by you, you might have to bring your A out. It seems you are a lost lamb too, please kneel down ask for HIS forgiveness and ask for HIS help to soften your heart and strength to pass this storm in your life. Then talk to your H, ask for his forgiveness and tell him that you are willing to make it right, whatever it takes. Ask for his help to protect your weakness ... give up all your tricks and all avenues that may lead to OM. Ask H to post here and if you can afford it get conseling from MB also.<p>God Bless you.

First, I thank you very very much for responding and giving me strength and compassion.
husband is supportive but submissive.
I'm seriously considering that no contact letter.
husband always knows when I see him, but I don't share communications because I don't want husband hurt by hearing my expressions of love for someone else.
I do pray - I am actually a spiritual and religious person despite the way I've behaved, I never let go my connection with God and want to do God's will ultimately. I actually have good relationship with H and family and community.
I know I have more to lose.
Yes I know I must break contact.
I'm very torn now because OM has court case this week and he may need me more than ever. I'd feel terrible dropping him right now. I know it must be but I postpone for his sake, and also because he says he'll leave soon. I don't think he'll blackmail but the A must NOT come out. IT would finish me here and it would damage all kids in schools etc very very badly.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by birdinacage:
<strong>Husband always knows when I see him, but I don't share communications because I don't want husband hurt by hearing my expressions of love for someone else.

I'm very torn now because OM has court case this week and he may need me more than ever. I'd feel terrible dropping him right now. I know it must be ...he says he'll leave soon. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hello, Cagedbird.
I am BS, so I can't begin to understand how this feels from your end. BUT, being a christian, and wanting deperately to have my own WH come to his senses, and feeling YOUR pain, I wanted to reach out. Also, I guess we're the only ones up at this very early hour! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Let me address the points I've highlighted above. First of all, from what everyone here says, yes, your H DOES know when there is contact. YOU behave differently, whether or not you realize it, so he knows. Trying to act as if you did NOT, or lying to him just won't work, so becoming completely honest with him is the first step to healing from this. Let him know when you have had to talk to OM. I think you can do this without expressing undying love for OM forever, can't you?<p>Do you have the Harley's book, SAA? It is excellent for explaining all of your (and BH's) wildly swinging emotions. Also look for Torn Asunder by Dave Carder, with a little more christian viewpoint might be another option. It also has a timeline, from which you can see what recovery, for both you AND your H will take....See, your H's timeline did not start when YOURS did. His timeline (of acceptance, recovery, all emotions, etc) started after D-Day, while yours started the day the A began in full bloom. As you can see, it will be quite a discrepancy. Your H needs time to work through HIS issues with this as well.<p>As far as OM saying he'll "leave soon" - I suspect this is a stall tactic....as he probably doesn't want to break it off any more than you do. The sooner, the cleaner of a break, the better for all concerned. It is the week-end, and not many will respond, but during the week, you will hear many, many people tell you how their WS's "hung on" to the OP for a long time, and all it did was prolong the agony and make true recovery impossible.<p>If he's going to "get along without you" from now on, might as well start NOW, during this court case.<p>Bird, this is an addiction, much as the Harley's say. If you have been reading their concepts on all the webpages here, you know this. There is NO easy way out of an addiction, except just SUFFER through it and hang on till it passes. Just being here, talking to all of us, like you have tells me you KNOW you want to do this. You just need friends to help you do it. We can be those friends for you. Let us help you save your M.<p>God Bless,

Hi [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>birds shouldn't be in cages - unless they're house pets. That you feel like you're in a cage - and perhaps have been for the last years - is really sad. What can we do to help you. e-hugs are ok but I think you're crying out for something more.<p>I guess you feel trapped between a rock and a hard place - like we all do sometimes - with nowhere to turn. But what could turn it for you.
Sure the OM has it hard with the court case and all but he'll move away soon and then he'll be open to other (new) relationships. He needs you now because he needs the emotional and physical support that you provide. But he'll find that somehwere else too.<p>You have it bad because you're torn between going with the OM and your responsibilities to your children and the stigma attached with being caught. You want to run away but you can't - you know it wouldn't work and your roots are holding you firm. Some of us know how this feels too [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Then there's your husband. What do you think it's like for him to be living with a woman who finds him submissive, thinks he tries hard and misses. You make him sound like he's a real failure. But maybe he's not. Maybe his behaviour is a reaction to how you treat him. Maybe he's been treated badly by you for the last 11 years because of how you felt for the OM. Did your H really have a fair chance? And just maybe he's hurting like hell because he loves you, wants to make you happy but you've blocked your feelings towards him. And just maybe he's a great, great guy for staying around you whilst you were involved with your OM. <p>BSs aren't stupid, they know what's happening - and every time it does it's like the blade of a knife being pushed slowly into your lungs: It takes your breath away but doesn't kill you. <p>Bird, 16 years of marriage is a long time - are you sure that its been sooooo bad. You've had good times haven't you? He made you laugh and made you happy at some point didn't he? What were those times like? Come back and share with us some of those good moments. Tell us about what's good about him, what is it that we'd like about him? <p>take care bird - I want to see you free, soaring in the warm spring air and with a song in your heart - that's how birds should be [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p><<<<< e-hugs >>>>>><p>- Freddy<p>[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Freddy ]<p>[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Freddy ]</p>

First, Freddy, I'm CRYING from your compassion, you are so kind and understanding. I'm sorry this is post is long.
Lupolady- yes H knows when I meet him. see above. I don't lie to him, I'm open and honest with him but I don't share everything I write to OM, I tell H what I tell him if I'm sure it won't hurt. Ironically H has been the major informal bridge in negotiating for the case. <p>I can understand why you'd all think I've treated H badly. I've actually really tried to treat H well. I didn't even tell him I liked OM for over 6 years and even after that I made all kinds of rules, not to engage OM in conversation, not to go over there etc etc.
The neighbourhood thinks we're the model marriage. I treat H with respect in front of the kids for the most part though sometimes I slip when he exasperates me, and I always treat him with respect in front of friends etc.<p>I had almost nothing to do with OM until quite recently. OM had an unhappy marriage and it turned out he was always interested in me but never believed I would respond, I was always so cool with him. I thought he was smiling because he guessed my feelings- I had it backwards. <p>H does a lot of stuff which really bothers me, and though I've spelled it out, he doesn't seem to absorb this. I've begged him to address these issues and though he believes he's trying he actually isn't making the effective effort.
Yes, we've tried to have good times together and sometimes succeeded, I usually initiate dates and quality times together and regularly express my appreciation for his good points.
Still he exasperates me and makes me cringe by repeating stuff I've begged him not to do over so many years and not learning skills I need. I try to hide a lot of my exasperation, again, for his feelings, so he shouldn't feel a failure. I think on some level I'm angry at his failure in certain departments, at the same time taking deep breaths and continuing to spend quality time with him, two or three hours every day, I do make a serious investment. Still I'm not bonding, I don't latch on because there's too much stuff which puts me off him. So we're platonic friends.
I didn't even allow a chance of A until my marriage settled into platonic and OM's wife had disowned him. <p>This may sound crazy to you, but H actually *encouraged* the A at one point when I thought OM was going to leave that week and I thought it would be the last chance to with him and I was in distress, H actually gave me money to go to him and encouraged me to go. If that doesn't tell you the weird relationship I have with H! H would let me go completely if it weren't for the kids, and then H might have a woman who would give herself to him 100%, I just don't believe that woman is me, not right now.
As for OM, I'm composing a letter in my mind to him, exploring ways of getting him to let me go.
I do want to stop this- and I don't. I was relying on circumstances to draw it to a close, as they must soon, because I didn't want to be the one to close the door on him. We thirst and hunger for one another. I know you think I'm weak, but my love and attachment is very strong. I held out for eleven years and I've really tried and I cry and pray every day. <p>OK as for that discrepancy one of you mentioned-
not so much.
H was aware I liked OM five years before A began- long before OM had any inkling.
H hacked OM's e-mail and was aware of our first meeting BEFORE it happened. He KNEW I was going to him and didn't stop me, didn't say a word. He waited for me to confess. I didn't, but he could see something was bothering me. Then he offered me a divorce a few days later. I accepted.
I told OM and OM actually called H, apologized and BEGGED him not to divorce me for the sake of the kids. this was right after D day. Since then it's been plan A. OM actually does NOT want H hurt and would rather I hide this than H turn a blind eye, which makes things a little more complicated, as I'm actually more honest with H than OM in this respect. Boggled enough? Sigh.

birdinacage,<p>Good man is hard to get and deep love is even harder to find. I hope you see thing in the different way. H is willing to make you happy, H is willing to set you free and H is not submissive. Aren't you glad that H didn't push out out and throw you out ?. It took a lot of courage and love to be in your H shoes.<p>Your problem is not OM but you. You try to find happiness but in the wrong place. Many WS that had tried and be able to rebuild and have a fullfiling M. Like Freedy say you should be free bird, free from the cage that you have build for yourself. All of us responsible for our own happiness, you have to work for it and look for it in the right place. Life is too short to be miserable and you want a happiness that last.<p>Again I will try to repeat, read SAA, write no contact letter, tell your H what you are doing (trying to work on M) and ammends H. MB will bring you to your happiness.<p>Get a conseling form MB directly if you could afford it, you can not educate your H ... it will make him run to his cave.<p>Bird, your cage door was never shut, all you need to do is fly out and seek your happiness w/ your H. Do not wait until the door is shut by by circumstances, take the control. Follow brw's posts you will see what I mean.

Red hat, you are terrific! You are all great. <p>Any of you following this thread, please reread first page and understand that we are not a typical case from the beginning and certain assumptions about histories of marriages and affairs don't apply. H read the book and this is HIS conclusion. Any other BS out there should please try not to project his/her feelings onto my H and assume exact same hurt. If any BS wants to discuss things with him, perhaps we could arrange something. H and I have close and open friendship and we spend a LOT of time together, despite repulsion factors I do like & value his company and everything he does.
Yes of course I appreciate all he is and does to care for me. Of course. I have great affection for him. Yes he is naturally a submissive personality- I should know. I don't have M/F bond with him- never did and don't know if it will ever be. We are platonic partnership for kids for some time.
Relations with him felt like a violation.
I just discussed all this with H now. I'm completely open with him. We even laugh about this. I'm not joyless, I have a great sense of humour and I have no trouble getting into a good mental state.
That's not my problem. I've put too much emotional investment in OM and I do see how unhealthy this is for kids, though it's been the greatest thing ever for me and OM. Naturally I have trouble disentangling myself but I am seriously going to try, thanks to you people. Starting now. I'm writing OM now, guys. Pray for me.

YOu devalue your H as a human and disrespect him with these "repulsion factors"- I see you are platonic friends, good... for kids sake.. but you do not respect or treatr him as he deserves.. this is your problem... and he treats you better than the OM's in your life... it looks that way!<p>I am sorry you are in this situation. Are you christian? The way you should treat your H, is not the way you are treating him, thus, no wonder the marriage is in trouble. If you cannot treat him as you should... you need to work on that. You made a commitment for life when you married this man.<p>Even people in arranged marraiges can make them work. this man loves you, please think hard on this, and try to be loving and good to him... every human on this earth, has "repulsion factors" you just haven't seen them yet in your OM.<p>I am sad for you, I am sorry if I sound harsh, but your affair(s) may have added much confusion to your M. I don't know maybe your H is the grossest man in the world? If so, why did you marry- try to remember why you married him... maybe you can get that back...even if for now, it starts out being for the kids sake... it is better for all for you to stay together.<p>The princciples on this site, can show you how to have a happy marriage, but you both have to work for that.<p>HONEY

Birdinacage, please explain what you mean by 'repulsion factors'.<p>Joe

birdinacage,<p>Call MB first thing Monday morning ... Challenge Steve to make you & H fall in love and staying in love. Both of you are willing, the question is how. I do beleive if one follows the 4 gifts of love within 6 months, "in love" feeling will flurish. Give it a shot, you won't regret it. It is better than in limbo and living in stale M.<p>What is love ? ... 1 Cor 4-7.<p>Go and talk to your husband too.<p>May God bless you & H wisdom and strength to pass this storm in your life. May God soften your heart and humble before HIM. In the name of Jesus Christ and Holly Spirit, I pray. Amen.

B in a cage, just checking in, I felt a little bad about my post... I think you should try hard to love him, he is your H, and the father of your children- but then again this site is for people who want to build their marriages... I hope you will try... all you have to do is want it, it is obvious he is there for you.<p>Hugs to you, HONEY

bird-cage,
I received a request from Redhat to follow your post. I am new to this site,too. I posted the "lament of the WS" a couple weeks ago. I am the Ws in my marriage. I'm reading and feeling through your words. I ,too, have shared many things with my wife about the OW. My saga has gone on over 3yrs. I found it very, very difficult to break those ties. I should say that that I find it that way. I have had no contact for several weeks now and things were tapering off since about the begining of Dec of 2001.
The first thing that I could share is the idea of "you can't leave him now" syndrom. I COMPLETELY understand your thinking. I thought the same thing for all this time. The irony is that when I was briefly gone from my wife I could say the SAME things about her and my family! There was always something that you "needed" to stay for. The OW has met my wife ,also. She didn't want to break up my marriage either BUT over time even the OP needs more of you than you can give without leaving your marriage. They deserve that,too. This man says he may leave the state because of some legal problems. What kind? Your best opportunity to save your marriage would be for this to happen. Most don't have that option.
As for your marriage... I hear your exasparation and can only echo what others have asked...Why did you marry your H and what did you love about him? The other thing would be what happened to the OM's marriage? Why did it fail?
Counselling is in order I would think but your H MUST be willing to listen and learn and YOU ,too. My W and I have been through loads of it but until the both of you are "ready" then it won't do much. My wife has lived with this for all this time and while I don't say she is submissive, she didn't lash out at me all the time and she offered the divorce ,too. I learned that everyone has their limits ,however and I've listened to some pretty loud and direct things coming from her.
This is a monumental struggle I KNOW! You must decide whether you believe your marriage is worth saving. All marriages aren't worth it but only you and your H can do that.
Come to this site for an "ear" to talk to. We all have different but still similar situations. I know it has helped me and it started when I read SAA.
Our hearts, hopes and prayers go out to you.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Brw
ps I have always considered myself to be spiritual and ask myself "how" I could have strayed like this. We learn through all this that "life happens".

Bird,
Like you, I am a wayward wife who felt that I was no longer 'in love' with my husband just a few short months ago. I began an affair with a family friend and have only recently ended it. <p>My experience stems from the quote from Abe Lincoln "Most people are as happy as they make up their minds to be." I now make an effort everyday to notice things that I like, admire, am attracted to about my husband. His eyes, his smile, his affectionate nature, his love for my daughter...but it is a conscious effort. I know that we are taught to think that love happens, grows and flourishes without help if it is the real thing. But I have come to look at love as a garden. You can't just throw seeds out into an empty field and expect a bounty of beauty to happen. You have to weed, feed, nurture, prune, water. Marriage takes the same kind of work.<p>Do please try to think of the good things about your h. Don't dwell on the negative...we all have our flaws. Just once a day, do one little thing just to make him happy--say I love you...pat his shoulder...tell him he's a good father...tell him you like his smile...hold his hand. Pretty soon, I think, these things will feel more natural and improve the relationship.

bump

Just a little tid bit here.<p>Did you ever think that the reason you cannot have a bond with your H and the reason you haven't been able to establish one with him is because of your continued feelings for the OM for such a long length of time?<p>Maybe...if you sever the ties with him....and put all your effort into making your marriage work...you will find that you actually can have that bond with your H.<p>It sounds to me that over the years you have let your feelings for this OM cloud what you have right in front of you.<p>Maybe I'm way off base here.....but I'm thinking that maybe you don't even want to have that bond with your H now...because of the OM.<p>Your H deserves to be treated as a H rather than a roomate.