I have been doing a lot of reading lately that has focused on Humans being Non-Monogomous creatures... While there is great debate here there seems to be some very large facts that seem to point towards human beings by nature not being monogomous.<P>I mean look at the divorce rates, and even look at the number of questions that are posted to the infidelity topic as opposed to the rest... yes, it seems what is happening the MOST is people looking to someone other than their partner for some needs.<P>Don't get me wrong... affairs and cheating cannot be justified by this because people are still hurt, they feel pain when this happens... but I wonder if there is some way to get around it.<P>If we as humans were to honestly hold close to hour hearts our partners joy as the number 1 goal then if that means them seeing someone else wouldn't you give it to them? And if their goal was the same for you wouldn't they do the same?<P>I know this whole topic is NOT going to sit well with people, especially those who believe in God because they are following his commandments to live monogomously with one person.<P>So please, I accept God may say this is the only way but I hope you respect that for those of us who do not have that faith we have different views. I will not confuse what looks like human nature with your desire to follow your faith <P>I have this really crazy idea, and I know its crazy and I know already that a lot of people might get upset with it but those who have read my posts know I am a great thinking and not just a frivilous idealist <P>As you know my partner has told me that if I have a sexual need to fulfil it with someone else if she cannot... (and yes I do believe she honestly means it not just says it). Now my whole life I have been monogomous and have "thought" in monogomous terms... but is that just because my parents have been married for 43 years? Is that just my "conditioning"?<P>My partner has come close once to having an affair... well not really an affair but they spent 15 minutes petting with someone and when they told me afterwards they said it was something they needed, that it broke the mundane of just kissing the same person every day... and I have to admit I agree with her.<P>So my theory is this (and I am ready to hear all sides, abuse and all) :<P>Monogomy doesn't work, divorce and infidelity are my reasons for thinking this. But the alternative is painful, infidelity is destructive and peoples feelings are hurt when a partner shares something intimate with someone else...<P>So...<P>Would it not be better to "share" in that other encounter? If one needs to experience the thrill of being with someone new but NOT hurt their partner wouldn't their partner welcome the other person into the experience? In that way not only does one partner gain what they need, the other is not hurt be the lying and the cheating and the deception... and at the same time can help to use it to help their partner grow.<P>Now I know it opens up a whole new can of worms... perhaps even more than infidelity itself but like I said, it is just a thought I have been exploring for a while now.<P>I am happy to hear about the good and the bad things people may see coming from this... but "please"... there is no need to preach, send me email directly if you want to do that, this board does not need something other than constructive criticism.

If you have ever felt the crushing pain of betrayal of someone you trusted you would have your answer.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

When my husband and I took our wedding vows, there were promises that we made to each other. I based my entire marriage on the trust that he would honour those vows he made to me. I did, he didn't. End of story!!<P>Success Story (why me)

Lost Soul-<P>You are not saying anything new!!<P>There are people who have open relationships and open marriages. <BR>Whether they work at keeping the original couple together or not or if it creates more havoc in one's life - I don't know.......<P>Others who have multiple partners are Mormons I think!! Don't the men get to have as many wives as they want? Don't think it works the other way round though!!!! Hmmmmm? Wonder why that is?<P>There are a lot of reasons that marriages or longterm relationsships don't work. Our society creates an aura of "life's too short", live for the moment" and ""Do what makes you happy"<P>I say that's bullsh@t and there are things like morals, committments, integrity, kindness and self improvement are more important!!! <P>It's real quick and simple to just "get going when the going gets tough" but I'm not sure that a person who does this is making any use or standing for anything with their life!! Why exist at all - just for your own pleasure in the easiest possible way?<P>What are you learning, what are you teaching to others? What have you done for your soul?<P>Just MHO!!!!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

I was wondering when someone was gonna write on this thread! I was afraid to...<P>I was honestly a bit shocked when I read this. I'm no prude, and I have a pretty open mind I think. But I just can't see a true open marriage. I don't think it can happen. I can't imagine any serious spouse giving consent to his/her partner to screw around. I just don't see it. But then again, you can watch Jerry Springer and see all sorts of things you thought you'd never see.<P>When I think of the pain I've gone though, both by my H actions and my own, I KNOW that it doesn't work to look outside of marriage for sex or anything else.<P>

One word: AIDS<P>For every article that says humans are not monogamous you will find at least one that says we are. You can base your feelings on those that say we are not, if you'd like. <P>Most of the articles that I have read about open marriages say that the majority of them fail miserably when one partner realizes it is not for him/her.<P>BTW, if you want to talk "nature" you might be interested in knowing that many of our ape "cousins" are monogamous, as are wolves and other mammals - and even some fish. Monogamy for human beings is as much a choice as love and trust are. And non-monogamy brings STDs into the picture. Somehow, that makes monogamy seem more biologically "safe" to me ...<P>Just MNSHO...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>No, I'm not a Marriage Counselor,<BR>But I did sleep at a <BR>Holiday Inn Express last night...<BR><p>[This message has been edited by terri (edited September 10, 1999).]

There is some convincing biology study out there that humans are not meant to be monogamous (shortest example: tesicle size. gorillas have monogamous harems, and have teeny testes, apes do it with any gal in heat, and they have HUGE ones, and humans are right in between, meaning there is at least SOME competition for fertile females).<BR>I saw this all on TLC-check it out.<BR>also, the "seven year itch" is biological, based on the raising of children, and that their need for 2 parents decreases dramatically around that age. Women also tip the scale to up the odds of getting pregnant by an OM, when they have all their physical needs met at home, they can go out looking for someone more 'genetically' attractive.<BR>Humans have had to invoke all kinds of laws (gods laws, if you like) to maintain some sort of social responsibility on people's parts to provide for the children that they create, but it is hard to overcome biology, for sure. <BR>If you are more interested, there is a great book i have read, called "The 91% factor: why women initiate 91% of divorce and what can be done about it" they have a webpage, but i have only found it once. i ordered it from amazon.<BR>Two words regarding "open marriages": INFORMED CONSENT. Policy of joint agreement, you know? <BR>My H never bothered to ask my opinion on his working with, sleeping with, and living with another woman while married to me, and the pain of that betrayal is immense. THAT's the difference.

Lost Soul,<BR>The pain you are going through is a tangible reason for monogamy. Secondly and most importantly it is God's design that we be monogamoous. He did not create Sally and Sue for Adam nor John and Bill for Eve. It does work when both partners have their focus on God and not on themselves. Affairs are the result of the betrayer being overly concerned about themselves rather than figuring out what can they do to better communicate their needs to their spouse. Yet at the same time the betrayer failed to realize that they would be hurting themselves as well as the other persons who are involved in the whole mess.<P>Had I known about my W's background before we were married, I would have done some things differently which would have possibly precluded any of the pain that I have and still am experiencing. Yet, because we live in this sin sick world, we have to endure some pain whether it be the pain caused by infidelity or some other event in our lives. It won't be until after judgement day that those who are His children will never experience pain and suffering again.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Hang on guys, yes it's God's plan for us to be monogamous, but it's also God's plan for us to love each other unconditionally, for a man to cleave to his wife, for the couple to become one flesh, for them to forsake all other, love, honor and cherish each other til death --------- and that's the problem, we get married, and we don't do any of those things. That's why monogamy becomes so difficult. If we followed God's plan the way He intended us to, there'd be no need to have anyone else but our spouse.<P>So, is it feasible to still expect monogamy, when neither spouse is living according to the other components of God's plan for marriage? Is it still feasible to expect monogamy when your spouse refuses to fulfill your sexual need? Is it still feasible to expect monogamy when your spouse refuses to be open and honest with you? Is it still feasible to expect monogamy when your spouse places work, family, hobbies, friends or anything else before his or her spouse? Is it still feasible to expect monogamy when your spouse completely neglects all your emotional needs? <P>I don't think it is, which is why, my H and I are putting all of our effort into doing things right this time. Now that both of us have seen what can happen when we neglect the other aspects of God's plan for marriage, we know better than to just expect monogamy without maintaining all the other essentials.<P>I can state this without hesitation ---- I know neither my H or I would have had affairs if we had treated each other the way we are treating each other now. Period. I think we were stupid to just expect monogamy just because. Very stupid.<P>But, we're smarter now! <P>So, LostSoul, I do think humans can be monogamous by nature, if they truly become one flesh. It's called agape.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Lost Soul,<BR> Another thought: If you seek another partner for sex, that gives your wife license to also seek sex outside your marriage. Could you live with that?<P> Yet another thought: There is the possibility that another woman might fall in love with you and would be crushed if you didn't return the feelings.<P> And, I know that you've said that you've done so much to get through to your wife, but could be possible that she may feel that the only reason you're doing all these things is to get sex--in short, she may feel that it's not HER that matters; that your end goal is the sex.<P> I think you complained earlier about being told that you should push your need for sex into the background, but please understand that we do not mean permanently. Many of us have pushed our own needs into the background in order to SAVE our marriages.<P> Besides, I really think you would feel AWFUL if you cheated.

lostsoul:<P>Leaving God completely out of the equation.<P>There are very few open marriages---in general, the main issue is that a relationship between two people is difficult enough without adding the complications from more parties. Triangles are often very difficult. Throw more people into the relationship, someone is always going to be unhappy.<P>Biological arguments are interesting, but I disagree with the "stuff" that LWB was seeing. Biology isn't all that difficult to "get over". Humans have "evolved" to lose several of those biological skills and urges. Still, biochemistry is the underlying basis of all our reactions, so there is a component.<P>Lost Soul, there's a perfect, morally acceptible answer for you. If you want more than one woman, you don't get married. You should be upfront to your multiple partners. You may find it difficult to raise children, but that's part of the tradeoff.

Lost Soul,<P>I wonder if you are seeking the answers within yourself for what's right for your own relationship, or are you stating that "in general", monogamy is not something that is natural within all of us. To myself and my H, it is. We have discussed this (not regarding the fact that we are a non- monogamous species) but discussions based upon our own hurt within this area -- the devastation that it brought tells me that for my H and myself, we are truly monogamous, and could never be in our marriage if this was the way we felt (re: open marriage). If for another couple, they agree upon the open marriage concept..that's their choice to make, we cannot impose our own standards on anyone else. But if you want to look at it statistically, this is not good in the long term -- what if in this open marriage, one spouse develops an emotional bond with one of the other partners, and like Terri said, STD's. This is risky behavior all around, and I don't believe, if this is the mindset of the spouses', that they should be married at all. Redefining marriage boundaries negates the premise of what marriage is all about -- commitment and forsaking all others, to name a few.

Greetings all.<P>It really sickens me to see all of this rot today about people being naturally polygamous. You see this junk everywhere now, including the pop science and psychology publications. <P>The urge to procreate and insure our genes are passed along to a new generation is a hindbrain function. The hindbrain is also called the reptilian brain. It is responsible for our lowest-level and basest actions and emotions. However, most of us do have frontal lobes where we reason what is best for us. It's this higher brain function where we develop our moral compasses and where we reason that it is in our best interests to develop a sexual/emotional relationship with only one person at a time.<P>So, no one will ever convince me that humans are at the root, "polygamous". This is just psycho-babble garbage to rationalize one's adulterous behavior.<P><two cents mode off>

I have to go with love was blind in this one. ALll the way to the seventh year itch and child development and the rules ( laws) we create to protect certain social tendencies.<BR>And 7 year It seems, because our babies take much more time to develop and to be able to survive on their on than any other animal ( now one can't think, why is that? ).<BR>ALthough I personally don't agree, I'm pretty sure that open marriages can work as well as anything else, as long as it's a choice made and agreed upon by both partners. <BR>This subject reminds me of a book by Robert Heinlen ( several actually ) and I rememeber not seing anything wrong about it.Group marriages come to mind as well. It just doesn't appeal to me, it seems that it will make life even more complicated from where I am, but doesn't have to be so with everyone.<BR>In any case, whatever done in a marriage ( no matter what kind ) should be done only with both ( or more in one of those cases ) parts agreeing to it. Any other way will defeat the purpose.<BR>By the same token, if I expected a monogomous relationship, then I should be able to get it - I guess I would have to find someone who had the same idea. Maybe it would be a good idea to ask about that before getting married ? and who knows maybe in the future it will happen.<BR>I believe in not judging anybody, and that what people choose to do with their lives ( as long as they're not hurting another person/s in the process ) is fair enough. If I don't agree with someone I have the choice of not associating with it. That's all.<P>( sorry if I'm shocking any of my friends here, but this happens to be my opinion )<BR>Anyway although thought provoking and maybe not for this board, it's an interesting topic.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

I tend to agree with love was blind and kat.<BR>I feel that we as a species are not monogomous. I also agree that we humans have the ability to think and therefore make correct choices. <BR>I feel that open marriages can and do work. I think that as long as it is a joint decision and neither party is hurt buy the others actions than what they do is their own business. I myself would never have one but hey to each his own.

Forgive the tone of my earlier post. I just get tired of people not taking responsibility for their actions and this "monogamy is not natural" kick is often used for that. When I spoke of the higher brain, I meant that people can make their own choices. They're not driven irresistably to polygamy. If people choose to be non-monogamous, then so be it. It is a choice. Just like whether or not to kill, steal or treat someone else horribly.

I believe Deb's Bozo can talk to you about sharing with other and how that worked out.<BR>This is the same rational for legalizing some drugs and making prostitution legal as they are victumless crimes. There is no wheer that has legal drugs that doesn't have problems. Humans are weak and want the easiest solutions whether they be sex, drugs, or whatever.

RWD, I'm afraid I will have to disagree. I spent many summers in Holland with family, and although there is a special designated area where drugs and prostitution are legal, I can't say that I found they had more problems with it than anywhere else.<BR>( Sorry people, today is my day to surprise everybody, I guess )<BR>I personally agree with the legalization of prostitution and don't think that will bring anything worse than what we already have.<BR>Better stop here on the subject <BR>As in regards to what people migh feel regarding sharing, again if it's to be done it should be done with all parts agreing, hopefully with plain knowledge of what they were getiing into. or at least with the option of discussing it regularly in case one or both parts have changed their minds. That's all. The case you're pointing out was not so.<BR>We're all adults and capable of making choices. WHo am I to say that my choice is more right than someon else's? And if I think it is, as I said, I have the option of avoiding ir altogether. The only point, and I repeat it because it's important is that no one involved sets up, or ends up hurting other parties. Some cultures have rules and laws that go against ours, does that mean ours are right and theirs are wrong? Not necessarily. Just different.<BR>Anyway, I guess I shocked enough people today, I'llbe back tomorrow <BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.<p>[This message has been edited by Kat1 (edited September 11, 1999).]

Who ever said "open marriage"?????<P>I was afraid of this... either people reading their OWN interpretation into it or quoting God as the reason... <P>If you read my original post I was not talking about a marriage that is open (ie either partner can seek other partners)... I was talking about a situation where the "threat" of infidelity and the "pain" of betrayal is completely nullified by instead of sneaking around and doing something behind your partners back you "INCLUDE" that person in the experience.<P>It seems the ideas in my head are not something many other people have thought about (or can comprehend very well), so I will give you a situation to describe it :<P>Couple are married, female feels a need to "cheat" as it were. Instead of doing this and the trouble it brings they talk to their partner about having the object of their desire join both of them. Now I am sure most times this is about sex, affection, feeling wanted or "something" that the partner is not providing. <P>The funny thing is... that nobody EVER is claimed to be cheating unless the partner actually has "SEX" together. It seems connections on all levels other than sex are played down to being friendly etc and that an affair ONLY happens when sex is involved.<P>In this way the person doesn't feel betrayed because their partner has wanted to "include" them in this.<P>I am having a feeling that those that do actually understand what I am getting at will be even more horrified than thinking about open marriages.<P>To those who said "If I want more, they may want more" I would never have thought about it if I was not willing to have it reciprocated... but that is just me.<P>To the person who said it was God's plan... obviously you lack the base ability to actually "read" where I said God aside... because I respect that as your view and apparently you do NOT respect mine... hence you ignored what I said and said it anyway <P>I could spend all day "debating" about how I personally believe God has failed in this but it would be disrespectful of me to belittle other peoples faith or views in this so I shall not.<P>Of course part of all this debate brings into questions of sexuality and once again please do not use this to simply spout that God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve... because we can just agree to disagree immediately on this.<P>What should a partner do who believes themselves bisexual? They are denying part of themselves regardless of the relationship they have chosen.<P>So all I can do is urge people to do a simple thing :<P>"Think about it, leave your bias at the door, place your ignance on the floor, step out of your shoes and into those of a reasonable person... and look at it in a different light"<P>Honest, Intellectual and well thought out answers will be welcomes... closed minded ones will only saden everyone reading this as I believe it is a very, very valid topic.

Trustntruth, and you said I was snotty? Sheesh!<P>LostSoul,<P>Please don't ask for opinions and then make disrespectful judgements about the replies you receive. That's not cool. Do you really think you are reinventing the wheel or something? Whether you are discussing open marriage or threesomes, or whatever, you've already received some very intelligent responses and personal opinions. It's funny that you say, "God aside," because what you don't realize is that most of us who value our relationship with God can't just put that aside. I know that I, for one, do not put on and then take off my "God hat" like it is a piece of clothing.<P>Just because you haven't received the particular reply you are looking for, you shouldn't put down the very passionate, caring and intelligent people who've already taken the time to post on this thread.<P>That said, I really don't understand what you are looking for us to say. So, let me ask you some questions for further clarification. <BR>Have you talked to your wife about having a threesome? And, when you say include her, do you mean you'd want her to also have sexual interaction with the OW as well? <P>Would you also be open to your W including an OM of her liking, either by himself with the two of you, or expanding it into a foursome?<P>Would these liasons be limited to when both of you could participate? <P>Would you want your partners to be single or married? <P>How would you go about finding potential partners? Would the two of you go out together and sort of interview the prospects, or would you interview on your own and then report back to your spouse?<P>Would the liasons only include sex, or would they include other dates and outings like going to the movies, restaurants, or maybe your W would want to go shopping with the OW?<P>There, I think I've asked enough profound questions for you to answer that can provide lots of stimulating and intellectual conversation on the subject. I respectfully await your replies.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.