<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: whothehellisshe ]</p>

sorry, double post - messed up editing.<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: whothehellisshe ]</p>

SIGH...... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p> WOW! Aren't these emoticons COOL?<p> Everyone take a deep breath and relax just a bit.<p> Tomorrow is going to be a beautiful day. Well.....somewhere in the world it is. <p> Walk out into the night air and just breath. Go outside and really watch the sunrise. <p> Then realize that we all want the best for our fellow MBers.....Even SNL wants the best for us. He simply doesn't communicate that wish in the same manner some of us do. He comes accross as someone with a pompus air about him. I do believe he means well.<p> MOM, <p> I am happy for the turn of events in your H. You don't need SNL, jdmac1, kevco, or anyone else to tell you what you already know. And if you don't know it then please do check out the recovery boards and post questions to more people who have gone through what SNL speaks of. <p> I have heard all the words from my WS that you are hearing. We seperated for some months. She moved back home under the pretexts of recovery. It has been a lie MOM. <p> My W cried, wanted to die, hated herself, and pretended to want to fix the marriage. She read some stuff to make it look good to me. She came here and read for awhile(never posted). She promised to get into counciling, individual and marriage. <p> While all this has been happening she also has been slipping around seeing OM. <p> You know what I got for Valentines Day? I was looking for a tool in her car and found OMs cell phone hidden in the spare tire compartment in her trunk. Hell of a Valentines Day gift.<p> MOM, I know you are taking it slow. I KNOW you are being careful. It happens though. They play us because we want it so badly. My W is a school teacher for petes sake. A pillar in our community. A Christian. <p> Just be careful. And, SNL meant no harm.<p> jd

jdmac1,
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> You know what I got for Valentines Day? I was looking for a tool in her car and found OMs cell phone hidden in the spare tire compartment in her trunk. Hell of a Valentines Day gift.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Snooping is very bad for our LB$ but we can't afford not to. Hope you played dump like I do for most of what I already know. I could share your pain.<p>Mom,
This is a 'coaster ride. However, it is very good progress. My WW starts w/ wanting Dv, now she stops mentioning it and the lastest she doesn't want to file Dv ... (knowing that I will not do that [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ). Take his words and prove it with his actions. Sometime there is slight ray poke through WS's fog, hope stays long enough to burn the rest of it. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

MOM --
Just about everyone in the world has chimed in on this one, but I want to add my two cents anyway.<p>Proceed as if you never heard those words. (Hold them close inside, because its sweet to hear them)
But take no action because of them, do not change your course because of them.<p>BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY WORDS. And they are the words of someone who has let you down in countless ways, hurt you in countless ways. <p>Actions are the only thing that matter. And he knows what actions he has to take. After all this time how could he not?<p>I think what you're hearing is fear. All of a sudden he's facing the reality he's created, and he's suddenly unsure of what he's done. Maybe it would be safer to go back to what he's always known and had. There's more waffling to come, DON'T SUBJECT YOURSELF TO IT.<p>Continue on your path of acceptance and strength. Its what is best for you.

who...Hate to burst your bubble guy but you're probably going to regret your words. <p>snl...Hey, they are only opinions, and observations, one may (and should) be open to changing them, but why would one ever regret?<p>who...See, you WS's can't figure out why we're so clingy and will settle for second best. You know why? because we got blindsided. <p>snl...Being a ws doesn't mean I can't think, or observe human behaviour...right? I can see the point re bias in looking at my own circumstances (sort of like don't be your own lawyer, doctor, etc.), but ya know everyone has a bias, there is a bs bias also, and bs fog, but we can only try to communicate to each other, and maybe as a "group" humans can more successfully figure out what they should do as individuals. As for blindsided, I don't really agree, I think every failed marriages had all sorts of clues, and the bs chose to ingnore them....maybe not conciously, but by their own desire to have the "picture" work.<p>who...Suddenly, everything we ever took for granted in our spouse is gone. <p>snl...exactly, took for granted....taking anything for granted is the most ignorant thing a human being can do, and is ones own fault when it bites you.<p>who...Funny thing about that blindsiding though, just when the WS "thinks" they have us figured out we go and do something stupid like put our life back together and move on. <p>snl...as one should.<p>who...Suddenly that clingy BS isn't under the WS control anymore and YOU get blindsided. <p>snl...only if WE aren't focused on what is happening. For example, I am well aware my w may stop having an interest in me, and that if I then "found" the truths I search for and wanted to fully restore, it could be too late...I know the risks who, and I accept them as part of the deal. So should anyone in a similar circumstance, relational dynamics are the same in all cases who, the roles of both are fixed.... the issues/risks/choices are different depending on your role, but they do not change from couple to couple....married/dating/affairs/whatever they are always the same.<p>who...All those little things that your W did for you for 20 years suddenly become big things when they're not around anymore. <p>snl...True, and something I contemplate often. But the thing is, I do not think it is fair to her, or healthy for us, to choose someone because of what they will do for you (or not do, if not married). The whole notion of being married cause someone will work hard at meeting your en's and doing stuff for you makes me panicky, it is the entirely wrong reason to be married, it is possession not love, and is probably why I am somewhat at odds with MB stuff.....you should only be using MB stuff AFTER you determine you fit well enough to be in an intimate relationship with someone.<p>who...I don't know about anybody else but I can see right through what you're selling. You've been here for months trying to figure out if you want to be married or not <p>snl...True, as I have said, but more accurately I am here trying to understand what a healthy marriage actually is, and assess my personal circumstances with that knowledge....As part of that effort I wanted to understand MB stuff, see it applied in others lives, and try it in mine....I know pretty much now what MB is and is not, and I pretty much know now what in-love is and is not, and I pretty much know the range of mating behaviour we call marriage takes, and it does vary, something I had never contemplated before.<p>who..It's the same story over and over. You're here for one of two reasons. 1. To make it look like you at least made an attempt while waiting for your W to be the one to end it or 2. Deep down you really are scared of loosing your W. You want to find your perfect match but your W is still safe for you. <p>snl...People are complex, and at primal levels we do things to survive, things we may not even understand in ourselves. Your 2 examples are typical thoughts re folks trying to resolve what is the truth re their marriages, and probably play some role cause they are part of being human, but they are of no value as explanations. I think everyone (except sociopaths) wants to feel they are fair in their treatment of others, so yes, I too want to be sure I have fairly looked at our circumstances. I find it interesting that folks complain about "looking" good, when you try. It is almost as if trying is equated with gauranteed reconcilliation....the whole point is someone does not want to be married, so if they "try" to do stuff, what do you expect them to look like? (assuming honesty is desired), they are doing something they do not want to do...ya know?<p>snl..As for number 2, again a survival thingy, and I don't think one can be human and not have some concern about what you have vs what you may not have...but again, that should play no role in staying....anymore than thinking you are gaining something should play a role in leaveing...the only criteria should be the emotional/psychological well-being of the 2 people in the marriage, whether it meets a standard of intimacy worthy of maintaining, or should it be adjusted to a friendship of some nature....or in particularly dysfunctioinal circumstances avoiding the messed up spouse alltogether.<p>who...Why else would you hang around with someone you don't want to be with? (HMMMM... where did I hear that?) <p>snl..You don't. Which is why we have so many lonely marriages, cause people are fearful of change (for many reasons, some good some not so good). You are mistaking a period of inquiry, and transition with hanging around, things take time who, and isn't that precisely what bs ask for? And actually I agree with time, everything has a season, including resolution of marital disharmony....unless one is married to a very bad person...a year or so seems to be the time we are posychologically built for to resolve relationships.... just walking in the door one day, packing and leaveing is unecessarily traumatic IMO for either party in a marriage. Affairs are wrong, but they are part of life, the consequence is you have to take action (after the affair) to balance the books, and that is done by leaveing the affair, returning to the marriage and focusing on the marriage until a resolution is achieved...but it has to be a resolution based on very radical honesrt...no more wishful thinking, no more denial, no more looking the other way, no more fear of being alone.... only one thing counts, the truth re how you fit together, and what it means for both emotional/psychological health.<p>who...What's going to happen when that safety is gone? <p>snl...I don't know, and it scares me alot, but I won't make a decision based on my fear.<p>who...One of these days your W is going to win the staring contest and you'll be calling up MOM's husband asking for advice.<p>snl...Maybe, which is why I am trying to do it right now, leave no stone unturned so to speak.<p>Who, thank-you for your thoughts, I must observe though your mindset is apparent too, that marriage should be preserved...you do understand that is a bias don't you? There is nothing inherent about being in a marriage that makes it something to preserve just because you are in it....clearly that does not work, one simply has but to look around and see that....what counts is how you fit together, otherwise it is just some version of roomates with sex....yet that notion scares the bejeepers out of many people, I don't understand why....are we all that afraid of functioning on our own? What point is there to being married if it is nothing more than just meeting each others en's? You don't even have to be married to do that. Divorce is often labeled in destructive terms, death, tearing up, etc....why? No one is dieing, the 2 people are still alive and fully functional human beings, they just don't cohabitate anymore...they can still care about each other, still have shared history, can talk to, and be helpful to each other, they just are not trying to maintain an intimate bond....the fact that people cannot do this (usually) suggests to me most marriages are in fact dependentcies and/or possessions and not really in-love at all, just people using each other to get needs met, and they get mad when someone "breaks" the contract. <p>My w has never been happy either in the marriage, and anytime in the marriage I would have let her go with my blessing and hope she find someone who fit her, I cannot imagine being angry with someone cause they don't (and are honest about it as required) want to live in intimacy with me....and I would have been perfectly happy to be friends with her. People don't think so, but I really do want my wife to be happy, I care about her alot, it is why I married her, to make her happy (yes, was wrong, but that is what rescuers do)..... I know I cannot be responsible for her happiness now, or she mine, and we stress each other when we try to be close, that has to be dealt with, and I think is a consequnce of fit...what I don't get is why she is so angry, and claims she would hate me if we divorced, how can she be in-love with me if that is true? I am not mistreating her (other than her demands I meet her en's), nor would I if we divorced, she would just be free of the stress (as would I). The thing is who, it boils down to how humans fit each other, marital bonding/intimacy is either dependent on the pair, or it doesn't make any difference, each of us has to figure that out for ourselves, IMO it matters, it matters alot, and it matters far more than anything MB can offer to minimize it.....MB can help people settle, if they decide to do that, and on occassion clear the debris out for those who truly fit and just got lost...but the principles cannot generate bonding, or in-love fit, it is either there or it isn't...for some fitting is not important, they are content with contractural en marriages, others are not, such is the nature of human beings, we are all different.<p>But we digress, the thread was about ws who categorically leave, act in very bad ways, and "suddenly" see the light.....I think that rarely happens for real, and is most often about a ws who just wants to be taken care of until they decide to leave again (be it physically leave, or just stay married and ignore the spouse, doing the minimum necessary to be taken care of).<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>But we digress, the thread was about ws who categorically leave, act in very bad ways, and "suddenly" see the light.....</strong><hr></blockquote><p>SNL: Actually--the thread was about MoM's specific situation which has now "digressed" into a back and forth discussion that likely is of no value to her anymore...<p>I think if you want to continue to discuss your WS vs BS philosophies that's fine, but I don't think it is fair to co-opt someone else's thread to carry on these lengthy discussions...especially since MoM has sepcifically asked you not to continue responding.<p>I doubt hat MoM has received much value from this thread since page 3...<p>E

Double post---<p>Oops... [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Elad ]</p>

I appreciate all of you so much you'll just never know. It's so great to get advice here. We've all been through this in one form or another WS/BS, some both. I appreciate all of you who came to my defense against snl. I really do. If I'm totally honest, there is always some value to his posts, it's just that he always takes SO LONG to get there, and my attention span can't take it.<p>To all of you who said not to buy the books, do anymore of the work, YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!! I've been in the mothering/caretaker role for far to long. <p>JDMAC - you are right, he could be telling me one more BIG FAT LIE! That's why the only thing I said to him was "I just don't know if I can go from acceptance that the M is over, back to recovery mode." <p>Lexxy - I thank you so much; you are right in what you said about holding his words close to my heart, because it did feel good to hear them.<p>He does need to "walk the walk" however. <p>Anyway, I really REALLY appreciate all the responses. I'm o.k. I'm strong, I'm living my life trying to be the best Christian MOM I can be. I ask God every morning to guide my words, my actions and my choices. If God wants my marriage, he will give me (and my H) the tools we need to recover it.<p>LOVE YOU GUYS!!!<p>MOM

MoM,
Oh what a familiar story. I'm the WS and just last night my W told me she was afraid to try and heal in the fear that in 6months things might go back to the way they were and she would have given herself up for nothing again. She made me promise that I would let her know if any contact was made so that she then could decide where she wanted to go from here. She has been basically Plan A'ing for 3yrs. I've not left home but for a couple days 2months ago but either way YOU have to deal with the pain and fear. As bad as it sounds it would seem that you are in control of the situation now and not the OW. I hope all your efforts pay off one way or the other.
Brw

<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: whothehellisshe ]</p>

Who and S_N_L...
Please start your own thread for your little debate.<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Susan ]</p>

Hi, MoM,
I haven't had a chance to post here, until now...I see you've not been lonely! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My only advice (beyond all the scores of words that have been writen to you) is to stay close to the Lord....He has your best interests in His perfect Plan, and He will reveal it to you, as you ask, seek, and knock.<p>Personally, I guess I'd pray and let the Lord lead me ("This is the way.....walk ye in it....") in what He wanted me to say or do w/WH.<p>I am happy for the way things are going....and I can see you are strong. I KNOW you will make the right decisions as long as you ask God for guidance before taking any steps.<p>Love & Prayers,

Sorry MOM,<p>I did it again. Sometimes I just can't resist SNL.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
who

Hi there MOM,<p>WOW! You've really been given lots to mull over here, haven't you?<p>I think Lupo's given you the most sound advise. It's God Who will make the most difference. He's done it in you and He can do it in your marriage and He's the ONLY one who can do it in your H.<p>You H is a human being. He will fail and fail on his own. It likely doesn't matter how much counseling(secular)he gets to deal with his issues IF he doesn't repent and turn away from the person he's been all his life and stay with the ONLY ONE who can make him whole ,he will fail yet again.Without a personal relationship with God your H won't understand what it is to be a good H and he will not likely be able to keep his own motivation to STAY a good H. This is the key thing for you to remember.<p>My own H started to recognize this early in our recovery, before he moved back home. He was spiritually dead for years in our marriage. I also was on deaths door step spiritually. I know God used H's affair for the good of both of us (he does those things, ya know?). We both needed to wake up and pay attention to our spiritual condition.Well, like you, God had REALLY gotten my attention with my H's affair.<p>MoM, I've bet you've already figured out that when all is well with our soul and we're seeking and listening and walking with God EVRYTHING else falls into place. It is NOT our emotional/psychological well being that is most important as SNL professes. That's where he's got it all wrong. It's our spiritual well being that matters most. That's what HEALS us emotionally and psychologically. God can heal and change what no psychologist can.<p>At the risk of sounding like a religious nut (I'm not religious at all)I'll tell you that more important than anything else in the recovery of your marriage is that your H chooses to walk with the Lord. Everyone has to choose that on their own. It's more than going to church. It's more than reading the words in the bible. It's more than doing good works. It'a a complete willingness to submit our broken selves to the Master potter who can mold us and shape us into beautiful, useful vessels. Your H isn't going to be the man you need him to be without a deep personal relationship with God. <p>Is your H broken, MoM? Is he willing to submit to something greater than you or the marriage or the kids? It's really scary to make those assessments.
We're all backsliders at certain times in our lives. Even if H does choose to walk with the Lord he will backslide. None of us ever has a TOTALLY fulfilling marriage. Human beings don't find total fulfillment in anything other than God. That is where we have to be careful in marital recovery as well. We have to realize that no other human being will ever get it 100% right. No other human being will ever be able to meet our ENs 100%. We are setting ourselves up for a lifetime of unhappiness when we expect to be fulfiled from somewhere outside of ourselves and our relationship with God.<p>There is no hurry here for you to DO anything. After the long journey you've been on it's time to rest in your new found comfort and let yourself be. No more work for you right now MoM where the marriage is concerned. Actions are all that matter on your H's part, words are worthless. Time, LOTS of time, a good year or more if need be, to see if your H is willing to come off the wide and easy path of life he's been on to take the long, hard narrow path that will bring salvation to him AND your marriage!<p>Lot's of hugs and prayers for you and all the struggling marriages here!

mttherboard (I know I didn't spell it right!) All I can say is BEAUTIFULLY SAID!! I agree with each and every word. Now it's time for me to get out of God's way!!<p>Thank you!<p>MOM

mtrhb...MoM, I've bet you've already figured out that when all is well with our soul and we're seeking and listening and walking with God EVRYTHING else falls into place. <p>snl...I agree that God is in charge, and that is where you find peace, you should know that from my posts....where I disagree is when the argument turns to God will restore a marriage just cause you want Him to, that is not what the Bible says, implies, or teaches, nor does God simply rubberstamp our desires...it is what people who want marriage to be a rules based legalistic place teach. Freewill insures we will make marital errors in choosing a mate...if we do, and walk with God, He will open our eyes to the truth re the marriages (that they are not spiritual marriages, but human choices)...the notion that God wants everyone to remain in the marriages they are in is an unfortunate constraint on God's will for each of us...He decides who we should be mated with, not us IMO...<p>mthrb..It is NOT our emotional/psychological well being that is most important as SNL professes. That's where he's got it all wrong. It's our spiritual well being that matters most. That's what HEALS us emotionally and psychologically. God can heal and change what no psychologist can.<p>snl...They go hand in hand, as they must, we are at peace spiritually when we are emotionally/psychologically healthy...and when we are emotionally/psychologically healthy, we are spiritually healed, that is why it is important to get it right, you cannot spiritually heal when you act in opposition to God's will for you, there will be consequences, and dysfunctional marriages are one of them.....

snl...I agree that God is in charge, and that is where you find peace, you should know that from my posts....where I disagree is when the argument turns to God will restore a marriage just cause you want Him to, that is not what the Bible says, implies, or teaches, nor does God simply rubberstamp our desires...it is what people who want marriage to be a rules based legalistic place teach. Freewill insures we will make marital errors in choosing a mate...if we do, and walk with God, He will open our eyes to the truth re the marriages (that they are not spiritual marriages, but human choices)...the notion that God wants everyone to remain in the marriages they are in is an unfortunate constraint on God's will for each of us...He decides who we should be mated with, not us IMO...<p>Mthrr<p>Ok SNL so how does God pick our mate for us? Would you please show me biblical references to the notion that God picks our mate for us? Is there just one individual out there who God picks for us? Show me where the bible teaches that. Yes, people make poor choices in marital partners that's why God gives us an out in cases of abuse and adultery,because we have freewill in picking our marriage partner.Sometimes we make grave mistakes and sometimes our mates choose to be abusive , against the will of God. Also, could you show me where the bible teaches how God joins a man and woman together in a "spiritual" vs. "legal" marriage. Where are the differences discerned? <p>mthrb..It is NOT our emotional/psychological well being that is most important as SNL professes. That's where he's got it all wrong. It's our spiritual well being that matters most. That's what HEALS us emotionally and psychologically. God can heal and change what no psychologist can.<p>snl...They go hand in hand, as they must, we are at peace spiritually when we are emotionally/psychologically healthy...and when we are emotionally/psychologically healthy, we are spiritually healed, that is why it is important to get it right, you cannot spiritually heal when you act in opposition to God's will for you, there will be consequences, and dysfunctional marriages are one of them..... <p>Mthrr<p>Nope, we are at peace spiritually when we trust the promises God has given to us in His Word and do it His way as He has instructed us in His Word. Spiritual peace isn't going to come from anywhere else.We can be emotionally healthy and spiritually dead.No psychologist or any other human being is going to be able to spiritually heal any soul through emotional restoration. God can do both though! God's will for us is in His Word, that is where He speaks to us, that is how we are to discern His will for our lives and it's not all that complicated, unless we are trying to make it fit OUR own will.

here we go again!!!<p>I just want to say, for the record, that God does whatever HE wants....I have never felt that God would restore my marriage because it's what I wanted. I have continued to ask God to do WHATEVER he sees fit to do with my marriage. What he's done for me throughout all of this is HOLD ME UP for whatever's come along. God's given me so much peace and contentment even in the midst of the hardest time of my life. He's given me words to give others to support them. He's taught me that when I'm walking IN him, my life is better. <p>That's all......<p>MOM - JOYFUL IN THE LORD!!!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Myownme:
<strong>. I'm o.k. I'm strong, I'm living my life trying to be the best Christian MOM I can be. I ask God every morning to guide my words, my actions and my choices. If God wants my marriage, he will give me (and my H) the tools we need to recover it.<p>LOVE YOU GUYS!!!<p>MOM</strong><hr></blockquote><p>MoM, I love your words, Your faith just shines through your posts.<p>Don't forget make him walk the walk. He has to earn you back & nothing before it is over with OW. Scratch out the money to talk to Steve to get a plan, (something I wish very much I had done)<p>I envy you still having your faith. Mine is lost or very damaged, I miss it more than STBX<p>Hang in there, you are going to make it.