Today W and I went to the movies and dinner together. I feel like I was a true friend to her this evening, and I'm proud of that. I wante to thank the people of this forum, because it was largely your help and advice that taught me how to be such a good friend to her.<p>For those unfamiliar with my story, my W started an A last summer, and moved out shortly afterward. I had little contact with her through the fall and the holiday season. Her mental and emotional state has deteriorated over that time, and recently she hit an all-time low. After sharing my story with this forum and getting some great advice, I decided to offer her my friendship and support in an effort to help her survive and become healthy again. I've put all thoughts of getting a D or rebuilding the M on hold, and I'm simply trying to be her friend.<p>I've talked to her almost every day for the past 2 weeks, but tonight was the first time we've gotten together in person. It was hard to see her in the state she's in-- she trembled constantly all evening (she says it's due to anxiety), her eyes suggested lack of sleep, and she's lost too much weight. However, it did feel good to be there for her, and she did open up to me at dinner.<p>I was determined not to bring up our M, her A, or the OM. So I started off by talking about the movie we'd just seen, and asking her about her job search, her family, etc. Eventually she brought up OM, and she cried through the rest of dinner as she talked about their relationship. Several times I felt the urge to offer advice, and I resisted the urge (thanks, MB forum!). Instead, I just listened, asked questions about her feelings, and tried to offer empathy where I could. The only time I offered advice was when she told me that she's scared OM will decide this is just a mid-life crisis, and that someday he'll look back and laugh at her. I told her that if that happens, she shouldn't take it as a reflection on her or on her contribution to their relationship.<p>There were some interesting points about the current state of her relationship with OM. I'm not sure what to think about all this, so I'd love for some of you to tell me what you think:<p>-she said it felt good to cry tonight, since lately she's been afraid to cry in front of OM for fear that it will stress him out. I think this speaks volumes about the viability of their relationship.<p>-she had hoped to go to a hockey game with OM tonight, but it turns out he's going to the game with a group of people from the hospital where he works, and his W is one of them. My W is very distressed about this.<p>-she told me that OM enthusiastically encouraged her to get together with me. This surprised me a lot, since she'd told me recently that he's been jealous and very insecure about my recent involvement in her life. He tells her that he just wants her to spend time with friends (I'm almost the only friend she has left), but she's afraid he wants her to be occupied so he can see his W. I don't know how to interpret this. Any ideas? JL, I could use your help!<p>-she told me how she has made the mistake of relying on OM for her own happiness. She also said "it's pathetic that the best thing in my life causes me so much pain". (Oh yeah, one other bit of advice I gave her: happiness must come from within.)<p>It looks to me like she still wants very badly to be with OM. It's also very clear that she's fragile and hurting badly. But she seems to be realizing that I am someone she can turn to. I really, really hope that this is a baby step toward her eventual return to good health.<p>Thanks again to everyone here who has helped me lately. And please let me know what you think about the things I've shared above. I'm struggling to understand, and it would help to get your points of view.<p>Taking it one day at a time.<p>BP

Hi BP,<p> I am surprised you got no replies to this. All I can say is it sounds like this is all a step in the right direction.<p> You sound as if you have your act together. I doubt I could have done nearly as well.<p> Hope you get more replies. <p> jd

Hi B_P,<p>It is clear her life centers around the OM. So your approach to just helping her is very good for her, but even better for you. Don't get involved in her life with him.<p>You asked <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>she told me that OM enthusiastically encouraged her to get together with me. This surprised me a lot, since she'd told me recently that he's been jealous and very insecure about my recent involvement in her life. He tells her that he just wants her to spend time with friends (I'm almost the only friend she has left), but she's afraid he wants her to be occupied so he can see his W. I don't know how to interpret this. Any ideas? JL, I could use your help! <hr></blockquote><p>My guess and it is a guess, is that he realizes as she heals that she is still in love with him. However, he cannot take care of her so you are the logical guy for the job. You are relatively safe, you know her, and he knows you will protect her.<p>If I am right about his thinking, he is of course correct. You are the right man for the job. <p>Keep doing the job you set out to do. When she is healthier, it will be time to move on. You cannot fight her addiction to OM and any attempts will simply do more damage. B_P he has won this battle and he will evenutally destroy your W, because it it seems from what you have said he has no intention of leaving his W.<p>There really is nothing you can do about your W. She is an adult, and voluntarily sought out this addiction. She prefers it and until she decides to end it there is no hope for her or your marriage.<p>I don't intend to sound down about this. I think that as you continue to help her you will see many things for yourself and your decisions will become obvious. However, one thing is obvious now, she needs help and she needs a friend. Her OM is not a friend nor is he helping. You have won the job and you are doing very well.<p>B_P when you begin to doubt how things will/can/should turn out I would like you to think of something. In my experience every time a big decision has come up in my life,it turned out not to be a decision at all. If you pay attention to things, the events surrounding the decision often lead you to the correct decision. Oh! you can still decide differently, but rarely does it work out. In short the decision is made for you.<p>B_P I have no idea how your marriage will work out, but I do know this; your W will be better for what you are doing and you will be happier for the rest of your life for what you are doing. Keep helping her.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

jd, thanks for bumping this thread and for offering your 2 cents. I really appreciate your opinion that I have my act together. Sometimes I really wonder, so it feels good to be reassured.<p>JL, once again thank you for all of your help and encouragement. You are extremely generous with your wisdom and support, and you have been a tremendous help to me. I would like to ask you for a bit of clarification, if you don't mind.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>However, he cannot take care of her so you are the logical guy for the job. You are relatively safe, you know her, and he knows you will protect her. <hr></blockquote>
If I were in OM's position, I don't think I'd see me as being relatively safe. Do you think OM is extremely confident that my W will never want to return to me, and that makes me "safe"?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When she is healthier, it will be time to move on. You cannot fight her addiction to OM and any attempts will simply do more damage. B_P he has won this battle and he will evenutally destroy your W <hr></blockquote>
Do you really think he will eventually destroy her? If so, then will she ever be healthier? I totally agree that I can't fight her addiction, but I do hope that she eventually decides to fight it herself.<p>Thank you for your insight about how major decisions often turn out not to be decisions at all. I will definitely keep that in mind when I do decide to evaluate the future (or lack thereof) of my M.<p>Finally, thank you for your encouragement. I will keep helping her.<p>BP

B_P,<p>You asked <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If I were in OM's position, I don't think I'd see me as being relatively safe. Do you think OM is extremely confident that my W will never want to return to me, and that makes me "safe"? <hr></blockquote><p>The point here is the OM knows the W is deeply disturbed. There are few people that could help her, but you are one. So it is safe to leave her in your care. As for safe, recall he is married and doesn't really want to be married to your W. So, he cannot compete with a new man. However her feelings for you are down, so you are relatively safe in that regard as well.<p>This is not a comment about you or the future, but about his view of things RIGHT NOW.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Do you really think he will eventually destroy her? If so, then will she ever be healthier? I totally agree that I can't fight her
addiction, but I do hope that she eventually decides to fight it herself. <hr></blockquote><p>My bet is he will dump her. It will mess her up badly. She may survive if you do a good enough job. Then she will have to go through everything she is this time, EXCEPT this time she will have lost him. Recall, she feels that she has got him back after finding him with W. You know and I know these affair rarely lead to a marriage and when they do, most are bad news.<p>My guess is that she won't fight it until he does something to really hurt her. <p>Now this is just speculation on my part B_P. There are wild cards in all of this, actually several. One, is you. You may sway her away from OM, but it doesn't happen often. Two, she may develop a conscience. I wouldn't put much faith right now in either of them.<p>I know I sound very negative B_P, but I recall the history of your W when you first posted. This isn't her first affair, just her deepest. She has issues.<p>That is why I haven't really beat on you about plan a or plan b. First, she has serious issues that these plans are not designed to help. She needs counseling. Second, her suicide attempt was a call for help and you are helping her. Getting to a point of being strong enough to want to live is a major issue.<p>It seems to me these issue need to be addressed before you can have much hope. Is there hope?? You have to answer that. <p>So keep helping her and see where this goes. Personally, I think the OM is playing her, but time will tell.<p>You are doing a good thing B_P, don't doubt that for a moment. You'll know when it is time for a major decision. Meanwhile, keep helping her, talking with her, and being her friend. She doesn't have any right now. Certainly, OM is NOT her friend.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL, thank you once again for taking the time to give me a very thorough and well-reasoned reply. I understand that a lot of what you write to me is just speculation, but it's quite valuable to me, as I think you have good insight. I also think it's healthy for me to read some of your more negative views, as I have a tendency to sometimes be over-optimistic (thus my nickname), and that can often lead to disappointment in a situation like this.<p>I was thinking some more about the conversation I had over dinner with W, and I have a new idea that I'd like to share. If you (or anyone else on the forum) have any thoughts on this idea, I'd really appreciate it if you would offer them to me.<p>I think my W is beginning to make one of the major mistakes that I made in my relationship with her: she's starting to cling to OM. I believe I'm seeing signs of a pursuer/distancer dynamic between them. As you wrote, JL, it is clear that her life centers around OM and their relationship. In fact, she said almost those exact words. It seems like he might be pulling away a little, and I believe she is very threatened by this. I got the feeling she'd been pressuring him lately, and that it was backfiring.<p>This was definitely a problem in our M; after I learned about her first affair, my self-esteem was damaged, and I became clingy toward her. The more I pursued, the more suffocated she felt, and she withdrew further. This made me cling more, and there was a definite snowball effect. Eventually my entire life revolved around her, and her life seemed to center around escaping me. I finally figured out through marriage counseling and a lot of reading that this was unhealthy and a major problem in our relationship. Since then, I have rebuilt my own life and become my own source of happiness.<p>I find it very interesting to think that she might be making the same mistake that I had made. In a way, it helps me empathize, since I really do understand the frustration of the pursuer. However, I'd be lying if I said that I'm not pleased by the idea of their relationship falling apart. I'd much rather she left him than vice-versa, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. It does seem like he might leave her (I know you think so, JL), and she might be inadvertently convincing him to do so.<p>If I'm right about this, then it seems to me like one of the best things I could do for her would be to try to help her learn how to achieve happiness independently of him. That way, if and when he dumps her, she might not be crushed as severely. Then again, I don't want to save the day for their relationship. Maybe I should just sit back and watch, and be a good listener when she wants to talk. I guess I'll give it some more thought and hope that I get some good advice from the forum.<p>Thanks again for sticking with me through all my long posts and questions.<p>BP

B_P,<p>I think educating her will be a waste of your time. So the good news is you don't have to worry about saving their relationship. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I think listening to her and helping her once the inevitable happens will be good. <p>I also think that you have hit it on "the button" to using Curling terms (the Olympics are good for something. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) She is probably pursuing, when she stops the OM will pursue her, but there is a continual cost and erosion of the relationship as you point out. So let it work out.<p>I don't mean to be a downer. I think your life is going to be a very good one. You have learned and are continuing to learn. Personally, I believe your life will be one filled with happiness, good friends and family. Whether or not your W is in it. Why? You have taken the time to address your issues and grow. You should be very proud.<p>Your W on the other hand has a lot of growing and learning to do.<p>I think your analysis is pretty much on target to go with it until data shows that you are wrong. Then learn and adjust.<p>Hang in there and God Bless,<p>JL