Cool Honey! I have a question. I noticed before that you said something about Alanon. Are you currently going on a regular basis?<p>My exH was/is an alcoholic. It was very tough for me. And scary. And I think one of the scariest things was that he would go a stretch of 6 months and then one day ~ BAM! He wouldn't come home until 6:00 in the morning... passed out somewhere (who knows where). <p>I think that was one of the most horrifying experiences of my life. On more than one occasion he tore up my house, busted the TV, smashed the phone. I know I had at least 4 holes in my walls at home. I have a scar on my wrist where he cut me with a key. Etc. etc. etc.<p>I tell you these things not seeking pity. I want you to know I've lived that life, the wife of an alcoholic and I SO bad wanted to be his rescuer. The hardest thing for me to learn was that I could not help him. I could NOT make him quit. I could not make him do ANYTHING!<p>And I think that's why I so strongly emphasis to you to LET THEM do what they want. And if you take anything from this board, remember that you are important. You deserve 100%. You are worthy of a healthy and happy life. If you can't have that in your current situation, remove yourself from that situation. JUST THINK about what I have said and please Honey do NOT give up. FIGHT for your right to be happy. Fight for it! (But in a positive way - don't fight with THEM for goodness sakes)! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I know you are taking a break but keep in touch.<p>Love,
Clear

Hi Clear and thanks for the post... I worked the rest of the day until now.. yes, I have thought alot about my alcoholic spouse today.. .and I do not think I mean everything I post here... I am confused right now, and trying to sort things out... maybe I post too much, vent too much, etc... but living with an alcoholic who is hurting himself and our 2 children and me his wife who dearly loves him... although I am the one he blames for every problem he has on this earth right now.. well the ow too, since she broke it off with him recently... <p>I want my H to stop drinking.. I am fearful my marriage will never be right unless he gets help... he is far gone... but alot of the time, he is so together and fun and alluring, ya know the wonderful alcoholic personalites...<p>I t is just hard for me to see clearly now... like your names says... if we had no children, the answer would be so much easier.. but I see us as my family and I do not want to lose my family, but I do not want to enable or save my h either... unfortunately by not helping him anymore.. which I have been doing for some times.. his anger comes out at me.. and suddenly he seems to think I am a bad guy...<p>It is just so hard not to be reactionary when everyone is blaming me all the time.. it is like I am set up for my crzed reactions... so I know my problems are deeper than a cheating spouse.. my spouse is deeply sickened by the alcohol.. but I met him when I was a teenager, and he is the love of my life... I love him so much, and the sad thing is he does not know it... right now.. and as I tough love him, I just seem more and more the uncaring wife.. and that is when he turned elsewhere.. when I tough loved him out the door.. he wanted to be taken care of!<p>I am sad, so sad.. Yes, calmed down a little I see I went overboard on being upsetl.. over the posts to me... the br one... I was hurt.. but I could of let that lie too! <p>Why do I want to fix things, and feel the need to fix things when I feel I have been wronged.? I feel a need to solve problems, maybe something is wrong with that... I do not have an attacking nature.. but more one that wants to force issues and find solutions... everyone else does not... some people don't even care.. my h usually doesn;'t ... I care deeply about most things I bother to think about or do... this may be the essence of codependency, caring too much... and too much concern for how others see me and react to me... too.<p>I thank all of you very much for your posts to me, I hope I have not offended anyone.. it has been a hard couple of days and I am tired.<p>HONEY

Honey, I don't know if you have left the boards or not, but after several months of my not posting, you and one other have driven me out of lurkdom.<p>First of all let me say that you are right that we should refrain from name-calling. This is not constructive, but in your case I think that BR is just frustrated out of her mind. I have read your posts for some time and I have been frustrated, too. If you are not Queen of LB'ers, you soon will be. Don't even think of Plan B because that requires that you have performed a good Plan A, which you have not.<p>You know, no BS deserves the kinds of treatment most of them get, you included. Unfortunately this is the "name of the game" for most. You have to make a decision, do you want to stay married or do you want to be right? You appear to want to be right. This will be the downfall of your marriage, if not during this A crisis, then later on.<p>You need to learn the difference between accepting behavior and tolerating it. Tolerance by the BS, at least externally, is absolutely necessary in most cases of infidelity. This doesn't mean that you become a doormat, it simply means biting your tongue whenever you can. There is always the possibility of being pushed too far and reacting in a LB'ing way, we've all done it.<p>These boards can go a long way towards reducing LBs. If you will learn to vent here first, before confronting others, it reduces the pressure and the chances for an explosion. You said earlier, "maybe my vent seems immature". It's not the vent we care about, it's the fact that you LB'ed before you came here and vented.<p>Where I have become really frustrated with you is in your attitude. You have the same attitude my W had after D-day. I suggested to her the possibility of checking out these forums. Her response was "I'm not going to go somewhere where people are going to tell me I'm wrong". This has your name all over it. If you don't believe me, go back and re-read a lot of your posts. Anytime someone suggests behavior that would require self-restraint and work on your part, you barely acknowledge the reply. On the other hand, all of the replies that are "enabling" your LB'ing receive gushing responses from you.<p>That's one of the problems on the boards these days, too much enabling and too little "tough love". If you posted here before you acted, this might be OK, but that's not the case. You LB big time then come here for validation. Unfortunately, too often, you get it. Almost all of us BS's have been where you are at one time or another and it took a big "kick in the pants" from a concerned board member to shake us back to the right path. You are in as much of a fog as your H. Dr. Phil says that you can't change what you don't acknowledge. How do you expect to create an environment for your H to return to if you don't admit to yourself the problems you are causing. <p>I remember reading one of your posts from a few weeks ago and thinking at the time, "Man, if I were her H, I would start running and never stop". Another "Phil-ism" applies here: you need to be a "soft" place for your spouse to fall. You are not providing that. If your H fell now, he would fall on a bed of nails. If that is what he has to look forward to, do you think he will come back??<p>You said: "I am not one to sit closed mouthed and let others walk on me". In most cases, this is a good thing. Where your marriage is right now, you should probably re-think this attitude for the time being. Yet another "Phil-ism": You teach others how to treat you. Right now, you are teaching your H to continue to treat you with dis-respect and a lack of caring. You can express dissatisfaction without destructive confrontation. This can keep you from being a doormat and still reduce LBs.<p>Another thing I have noticed from your posts is that you are the "Empress of BUT". Even when you acknowledge mistakes you have made, there is always a "but". "I know I handled that wrong, but...."; "I probably shouldn't have, but...."; "Your advice was good, but...". This is the same justification and rationalization used by a lot of WS's and when used by a BS, it indicates a total lack of understanding of the MB principles.<p>You complained about people in recovery trying to tell you that their way is the right way. It may or may not be, each case is a little unique. However let me first ask you my question then one from Dr. Phil. My question: "is the person with whom you disagree with their advice, have a marriage that is in recovery or recovered?. If so, what is the status of your marriage?? If you aren't in a successful recovery, advice from someone who is could be invaluable whether you like the advice or not. Second, let me as a Dr. Phil(I love the man) question, "Is what you are doing right now working??" I think the answer is obvious. You are not improving and your H isn't back in the marriage full-time. Seems like it might be a good time for a change in approach, don't you think?<p>I think this was one of the more offensive things you said, "All of the friends of br gang coming to her aid..". Does this mean that if anyone who agrees with what she said is simply a friend of hers and not just someone who thinks what she said is right?? I don't even know BR, I don't think I have ever posted to her and I know she has never posted to me. I am a friend of the MB principles and an enemy of rationalization, justification and enabling.<p>I want your marriage to be recovered if that is what you want. Could you please spend more time on improving yourself and less time LB'ing your H, trashing his relatives and complaining about the advice you get here??? I know you have the will to make yourself a better person if you want to. Several of us have thrown down the gauntlet to you, I think it's time you accepted the challenge.<p>((((((Honey)))))) -- "tough" hugs...

DeWayne... I see that you too share the opinion that I am not trying to improve my marriage. Well, maybe that is a little harsh on my part... to say you think this... but it seems you may think this at lesat a little...<p>OK, I have plan a'd, no not perfectly, as a matter of fact thing s have improved quite a bit in my marriage... and that is good, and a lot of it, is thanks to growing I have done here.<p>My feelings are hurt that I was name called, and told that I am not following br's advice... did anyone say I should be doing what SHE SAYS?<p>I am sorry, I am trying to embrace the MB techniques... I have read more books than I ever imagined on recovering a marriage... and I am doing all sort s of things to make things better. Yes, you noticed my BUTS... I guess I am not humble enough or enough or a giver... I KNOW the only way I will get what I want from my spouse is likely by not asking for it at all and just giving, that is the way we used to be when we fell ion love.. I wsa good to him, he was good to me... and neither of us even had to ask the other for more... we were more than happy...<p>I do want some remorse, apologies and I do want some things fixed... i know demanding and lbing is not the way to get them....<p>What happended on this big LB on mine... ws that my fil sent valentines to my kids at my h's place. I consider this big lb to me... I reacted... first I opened one card that was unopened and sitting right in front of me... and I was mad but I said nothing... well my H later finds out I opened my 3 yrs old card, calls me, and is mad... and tells me he will not talk to me for 24 hours..<p>I should of let it go at that... but NO my CRAXED mind gets MADDER at my FIL for causing another fight between me and my H. I am so upset... NO HE did not really cause it, but if he had not sent those damn cards to his place instaead of our home... I would not be mad, and so I call to tell fil, please quit acting like we are already divorced, and sending cards to the kids at his place, but the converstaion gets a little worse... and I call fil an adulter.. which he is... I also have anger at fil for "teaching" my H that this is how men live their lives... I am very angry over this../<p>Ok, fil is mean and hangs up, why wouldn't he? I guess all men would be running from honey on the loose who wants to right all the wrongs being done to her... I guess I am a nutcase, huh?<p>I am sorry, but I feel so taken advantage of.<p>I then call the grandmother the only one who my h respects, and she seems to care about thim... and talk to her... no arguements.. just talking and telling her how hurt I feel and how I feel her son, is making my h and I's reconciliation harder... <p>Well, Of course I AM MAKEING the reconciliatrion harder.<p>NO< I AM NOT SEEKING VALIDATION OF MY WRONG DOINGS>>> I am VERY HONEST AND OPEN OVER THEM... I feel wrong, and I feel bad,... I seek change and growth and a better marriage...<p>BUT, here I go again... I DO NOT WNT TO BE TOLD HOW AWFUL I AM AND GET MY ALREADY SENSITIVE self hurt more, especiially here.<p>I am peeved over the name calling and hurtful tough love, suppossed comments... I appreciate frank, honest advice, and EVERY OTHER POSTERS ADVICE has been FINE TO ME>.. BR's simply hurt me for about the 5th time... perhpas her tough version is too tough for me... I do not have friends who call me names, except my H! My other friends are kind and nice, even when they know I am wrong... becaue of that... I AM usually kidn and nice to them..<p>NO, I do not want to stay stuck, no I do not want to lb anymore... NO, I do not think my behvior was right... but I certainly do not think I am the worst one here.. and I am not posting just for feel good... but I want support, and growth, and as I grow would love to help others, and have tried as I could.... but.... here I go again... I just can't handle the hurt right now.. maybe it is my precious little weak psyche... maybe I just want to be loved.<p>My family is strong, and although they offer support, I don't getreal emotional support.. I get help with my kids, etc.. My H has abandoned me... I have a best friend I can call but it is long distance.. and this board WAS really helping me.. <p>Yes, I feel now I cannot be as honest as I was... but here I am being honest as ever again... so maybe I can make it through this- I just think that after I complain about the hurt of the br comments... people coming to her aid... are jsut hruting me more... <p>I need some care and concern, OK... I am not saying I did not mess up... I just need it told to me in unhurtful ways?<p>Thanks for pointing out some more of my bad points... and weaknesses.. MY H says I always have a sorry, but... I guess I need to work on that..<p>NO, I am not trying to gush for the people who support my lb's... I just appreciate kindness... I do not mind, in fact I appreciate constructive criticism, etc... I just do not want it to sting... I am hurting so much, I have come a long way... a few months agao all I could do was lie in bed I was so depressed. I love my H so much, but truth is... I am someone who lets people walk and walk and walk on me... and then I usually explode... I need a new way of getting rid of the anger... <p>Thanks for the post... and btw... I liked a lot of waht br said to me, and a lot of what she says... I just did not like the name calling and the real toughness of how wrong she had to say I was... HOw about couching that criticism with some care?<p>I am fragile and weak and trying to put myself back together... I have been mistreated for years... and yes, I guess I asked for a lot of it....anyway... thanks for the words.<p>OK< thanks, H

Honey -- go to counseling if you're able.
Also consider seeing a Doctor about anti-depressants.<p>Counseling, Counseling, Counseling!

Problem I have with counseling, counseling, counseling, is everyone is telling me to D, divorce, divorce.<p>Hugs, HONEY

Are the counselors actually telling you that or is that the conclusion you are finding on your own, with their guidance?<p>I have a response to you based on the answer to that...

P.S. I don't think that when that person said counseling, counseling, counseling that it was meant to be MARITAL counseling. Individual counseling is extremely beneficial as well.<p>There are two different people here with two different sets of issues... you and H. He has his own issues to work out... you have yours. And from what I am seeing, you still want to be married. So, individual counseling can help you deal with YOUR emotions and feelings, outside of the "couple" forum.

OK, Honey...<p>First thing I want to say is that you are wrong about what I think of you. I do think you want to improve your marriage, it's just that the way you are going about it isn't working. I tried to come across in a tone between BR and neutral because I believe you needed shaking up a little.<p>You say that things have improved a little in your marriage. If this is so then work on yourself to stop going ballistic everytime there is a setback. It's like you guys make two steps forward, then H or FIL forces you one step back, then when you LB over it, you go back an additional step.<p>You said: "did anyone say I should be doing what SHE SAYS?. OK, I don't think anyone did, but I will. Yes you should do a lot of what she said. In a lot of ways you do react like a helpless victim. You aren't less of a person for that because society and families have a tendency to train women to be victims. What you have to do is work to overcome this and become strong. You are already part way there based on your attitude and the LB'ing you are doing. So now you should be working to try to harness this attitude and energy in ways that don't LB and make you look like you are in control of your emotions.<p>Let me use an analogy here(I love analogies). You are like a baby chick about to hatch. We, society, parents, men, etc., have put you into the shell of victimhood, subservience to men and so on. You weren't responsible for that. But now, you need to come into the world and it's time for you to peck your way out of that shell. No one else can do it for you. You have to do it or die.<p>I'm like you, that I have read more than I ever thought I would. Now that you are armed with this knowledge, use it. I think that at this point and for a little while, you should just forget about H and FIL to the greatest extent possible and focus on you.<p>Something else you said doesn't ring totally true: "I guess I am not humble enough". You sure came across somewhat humble in your reply to me. The secret is to develop and exhibit your humility, but not to the extent you become a doormat. This doesn't mean that you let people walk over you and/or insult or abuse you.<p>Another quote:"I KNOW the only way I will get what I want from my spouse is likely by not asking for it at all and just giving". Nope, this isn't true. You are correct that you should give, but remember you are working with one of us "brain-dead" males. Sometimes you have to spell it out for us. How we react to that is a function of how well we understand how relationships work and, more primarily, how this need is communicated to us. Yelling, complaining or demanding immediately causes a wall to be put up. Kinda like "speak to the hand".<p>You have received advice for counseling and journaling. These both helped me avoid LBs. You said that you didn't feel you could be honest here anymore. That's not true. When H or FIL pushes the wrong buttons, just button your lip, come here and write the vent of your life, put it in a journal, and/or tell someone else how you feel. Once you have released the emotion, then confront your H or FIL in a calm controlled way(if you still need to confront).<p>Quote:"EVERY OTHER POSTERS ADVICE has been FINE TO ME". The problem here is that much of the so-called "advice" has just been enabling. You know, things like "I know how you feel and I would do the same thing" or "you go, girl" or something like that. Well, the bottom line here is that almost all of us BS's and ex-BS's have felt exactly like you do at some point. The key is to first "master" yourself before interacting with WS. You won't be able to do this perfectly, you will LB from time to time, the key is to LB as little as you possibly can. When you do, figure out what caused the outburst(inside you, not what was done to you), and work on ways to prevent it in the future.<p>As your M improves, you will find that this is easier and easier to do. For now, however, you must concentrate more on yourself than your H. He takes advantage of you because he can. Stop giving him that easy way out and make him treat you like you are a real person. That cannot be done by "educating" him, only by changing you.<p>Let me address one last thing. In an earlier post you mentioned wanting to be "put on a pedestal'. We all want that(men included) and I hope you get it someday, but let it be for the right reasons. Take your place on that pedestal because of what you do, not because of what you are or who you are. What reward is there to be put in that place because you are pretty and sexy. You should want to be there because of what you do and who you are inside. Ask yourself which is truly better, to be put there and worshiped like some Greek god, or to earn your way there like a medal-winning Olympic athlete.<p>Anyway, I'm done for now. You are starting to open up a bit and become accepting of constructive criticism. Keep on this path and take the advice in the vein in which it is given: to help you build the life you want. I like where you seem to have started to go.<p>((((((((((Honey))))))))) <-- Hugs not so tough this time...<p>P.S. Only a couple of "buts" in your response to me. Very good!!!!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Heartpain ]</p>

thanks dewayne... I am feeling better... and I have actually in the past taken control of my life.. and moved on.... i went back to school got an mba, and attended a yr. of law school... what happended was with the second baby... I started being the wife I was raised to be, submissive, subservient... kind of for me, anyway I was. I prefer the responsible for me mode.. but when you are a mom, sometimes you need to be cared for... and I do believe men should be the provider..<p>My H uses money quite a bit to control me... and I am sickened by it.. when I need it... he uses it... thank the lord, I have again gotten work .. but I am still not at my level of potential yet... I became quit desperate when I needed money and he walked... i was only working part time.. as he was making 100k..<p>Well, enough about money.. in other ways.. I feel I NEED a H, but truth is when I feel like I do not Need him, I become empowered... I used to think he was the only one who could do certain masculine chores, etc... MY parents raised me this way, my mom still lives this way... MY MOTHER could not function if my dad did not provide for he r in all the masc. ways, but she does her wifely part...<p>SEE, it is disappointing to me, not to get that kind of marriage and life... but I do not have it, and really since I do not, I have a lot more! IN MYSELF that I have found... I can do it by myelf... But I want a partner, and someone to love... it is so much better like that.<p>I realize I can learn better ways to get respect... than DEMANDING>.. for me it is really hard... my mom still throws temper fits, and my dad just does what she wants... wouldn't that be nice? SEE, I have to learn it does not work in the real world, and certainly not with my h or his dad.. they are not of that category... of giving h's who baby their wives... my DAD is, and still is... sometimes I even feel sorry for him for what he puts up with.. but my MOM is a great lady.. just babied- so that is what I saw and learned... well, no such luck for me... but this is good.<p>Thanks for the advice, I see what everyone means.. I have to stop trying to demand my rights..it does not work! I will just ask for respect in the most peaceful way I can.. and not accept the abuse... peacefully as well.<p>thanks, hope I can do better this week.
Honey

Hi again,<p>I understand what you are saying. There's nothing wrong with living in the traditional male/female roles if both are happy. So it works for your Mom and Dad. The problem here is that isn't how you and your H live. I just think that in order for you to build a successful marriage with this guy(if it's possible), you can't let yourself be put into the position of total dependence.<p>Good grief, you are smart and driven to have an MBA and a year of law school. Don't let this tragedy of your life re-define you. Stake out your claim as to what kind of person you want to be and want others to see you as and work towards that goal.<p>We are all here to back you up....<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Honey
I am sorry you are dealing with this and I think Bramlerose was incredibly harsh to you and I cannot understand why. All I wanted to say is that if your H is an alcoholic, nothing else matters. He needs to deal with that before he can deal with anything else. I know about alcoholism first hand and my heart goes out to you being married to one, and I have to say, he does not sound like a very nice man. I think you deserve better.

Thanks agian to both of you... MY H is a very mean man much of the time... the problem is at times he can be WONDERFUL... everyone I know wonders about this part of him... since they know the HELLL I have been throught... and since when I am in HELL... I tend to talk or need more support about that... no one knows of the wonderful side of him... however I am seeing so much of the bad side of him since the A...I too, asm coming to the thought... what is it I am getting from this relationship? Just what is it? Thanks for all the support... I guess I hang on to the happy times... and hope for more..<p>My H got a presscription for valium.. only 10 or so pills.. on top of all his other drugs and alcohol like he really needs it.. he says he insited to the doc he had to have it... OK.. the point is.. loast night we went to dinner... he said today as I lb'ed when I sd.. . Ok, if you are going to keep os tonight....do you promise not to drink and drive, as I cannot endanger the children, can we please have that agreement... I am not trying to be mean or anyghing I sd... just please do not endanger the kids... so please do not drink and drive... OK? He got mad, and sd, Oh the only reason I went out with you last night was because I was taking the valium and I was too relzxed to think straight and so I let you go out with me... and then he went on to say... well if you think I am such a dangerous driver... etc and a danger to the kids, than you can just stay away from me altogther too, OK? Just leave me alone, if that is what you think of me!!!<p>I am so sick over all of this, it is disquisting to deal with someone who cannot see up from down..<p>He does not want to face reality.<p>I need an alanon meeting, right now!<p>Thanks again friends... and hearpain, yes... I have reapplied to law school and I am considering going back... I finally have enough money to make it without my H! i am glad I have become stronger because of him, and you are right relying on him AT all spells trouble for me... and it sadly but truly leads me to think that eventually we will get divorced, as my H just wants to blame me for everything and not see his part in all this..<p>He had a great interview today and may get another great paying job,. 95 k... I am sad... I make 65 and will probably make 70- possibly 90 if I get real lucky! He does not even have a college degree... but computer skills! It makes me mad... but I do try hard to find jobs that work around my kids... and his does not give the flexibility I need... anyway... guess it is the while male syndrome at work for him... but everyone just thinks he is so great wehn they meet him, people love him... he has that likable alcoholic personality... but when it comes to problems in life... watch out.<p>Anyway... thanks for the support... It is nice to hear that I deserve better... everyone keeps saying this... and I begin to think it... I just wish that better c ould be my H being better to me... so we could stay a family.<p>Hugs, H<p>HONEY