I understand what you were trying to get across to me in my earlier post today, but please stop the name calling.. being called a spoiled brat, pouty, out of control , etc.. is really taking it too far. We are here to help each other , not beat each other up. You are in my prayers.. I hope you can find more kindness in your heart , as you try to help others... You were trying to help, but you managed to hurt... this is aobut the 5th post or so of yours that noticably hurt me... <p>Please recognize your harshness and brutality when speaking to people in pain... or typing as it may be.<p>HONEY

((honey))<p>I am not BR as you can tell...however I do agree totally with what you said..we are here to support each other not knock us down further than we already are. Maybe they were just having a bad day..but from what you said...this isnt the first time....try not to read there replys for a while...I know its difficult...but if they make you feel worse, well it kind of defeats the purpose of this board. We all need a kick now and then..myself included..but there is a NICE way of doing this. That didnt sound too nice to me.
If I got such a reply here....it would really be the last straw....we all make mistakes going through this, of one kind or another...dont beat yourself up...more importantly DONT let others. THis is YOUR sitch...NOT theres or mine...we all need to stick together..support each other...if one makes a mistake be tactful with suggestions how to perhaps do things better next time round.<p>YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON<p>take care....K

Honey,
i a'm sorry this has happened to you. but i want u to know something, u have a friend in me if ever u need to talk i will be there for u. again i a'm so sorry for your pain. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Cathy

Thanks to the supporters, I did not start this post to be down on BR either- but it just started to add up... last time it happened, probably a few weeks back.. from the same posting name.. I let it slide.. and probably should of today, but I just can't take the names in print... answering me, and telling me how wrong I am.<p>I know I am wrong.. I am not here to validatre my mistakes.. but I am here to grow and get better, just not with more pain.<p>thanks everyone, I appreciate all help and opinions, even br, I am in a lot of pain, as is my family , and this is an awfu l time.. I may be doing things out of the norm for me.. but who doesn't in a case like this. I really think these boards are for helping each other out the best we can, and no one has the perfect answers.<p>h

honey,<p>When I was growing up, my grandmother had a saying, "Consider the source." By that she meant that before you react to something, stop and think about who it is coming from. In this case, IT is your FIL's awful behavior towards you. <p>But considering the source of the offensive behavior, what can you expect but garbage from this corrupt man? Considering the source, let it go. HE, the source, IS NOT WORTH your emotions.
He is not worth getting all worked up over. Considering the source, anything you do will have zero effect on changing him or the situation in a positive way.<p>So, listen to my Nana, and direct your emotional energy somewhere where it will make a difference. FIL is not worth it.<p>Take care, Estes

Honey
Hang in there kiddo. You know that you made a mistake. All you needed to do was vent. It's ok...keep posting. I also go to another sight...the people are very nice....and I am not saying that they are not nice here! I do believe that BR wa hard in you. I was offended and it was't even written to me. But that's ok too....she said what she needed to say....you didn't like it and you told her. Anyway...you have enough on your mind without having to worry about what you vent and how you vent it on this sight. You do need to feel comfortable....let me know if you want the name of the other sight.<p>Take care....we still need to hook up for lunch or something!
MAX

Honey -- please step back for a second.<p>BR has given you a gift, whether you realize it yet or not. Put away your hurt feelings for a moment.<p>I've worked for many "bosses" -- one of them was a slippery bugger had many many nice things to say to my face but stabbed me in the back when I tried for promotions. He didn't help me in the least. My newest boss is brutally honest. Tells me the perception of my work and sometimes I don't like to hear it. But you know what? This is the person that can help me the most. She is giving me honesty -- so that I can improve my situation! Its a gift -- even if it can be hurtful.<p>Before I started typing this, I went back and read many of your posts Honey. <p>It sucks to be a BS Honey, no doubt about it. So how do you want to use this site and this information? Do you just need to vent? Just a shoulder to cry on? Thats ok. Its a great place for that. But it can be so much more.<p>Do you really want to get into the heart of these principals and work on saving your marriage? Beyond sympathy, BS's like BR can focus your efforts -- get you thinking. Help you plan.<p>BR gave you a "kick in the pants". And sometimes that is needed!<p>Honey, are you really in Plan A?
What changes have you decided to make in yourself?
How are you working on them?
Are you able to completely stop LB'ing?
How are you depositing in your H's Lovebank?<p>Its ok to come here and vent. Its ok to complain. But don't you also want help in your Plan A efforts? Don't you want guidance from those who have walked this path before you?<p>Please reconsider and take in everything that has been said. Don't react quite yet -- just think about it.

Honey,
Hang in there. I've been on the business end of some nasty words that were supposed to be "help."<p>I'm a big believer in the idea that there is a way to say everything. ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! But the OFTEN the message (how ever good it may be) is lost when someone wraps it in a nasty package.<p>I don't know anything about BR, I know nothing about the incident, but my advice to you is to hang in there and to rise above!<p>KS<p>ps. you got a job !!?? Good for you!
pps. There sure seem to be a lot of Kathy's around here.

Here's the post that hurt the most- just so some can see what I mean here.: <p>
Why are you here at Marriage Builders? You are here to recover your marriage if possible...right?<p>Or are you here to get warm fuzzy validations for your feelings and actions that are clearly out of control - and are actively HARMING you, your Husband, your marriage and your kids?<p>Because if that's what you want - I've been wasting my time posting to you.<p>( I am sorry I do not respond to her advice and do what she says- do not think that is what any of us are here for) <p>
You see, you are acting like a victim, and a spoiled child. How should I respond to that?<p>(Here's some of the name calling)<p>You've been here for awhile - you've been told over and over by myself and others that your actions and behavior is out of control and that you need help, but you keep posting for opinions with this hurt, angry and pouty attitude that says that you aren't moving anywhere towards personal recovery from your co-dependence or your H's affair or recovery in your marriage.<p>(pouty and co-dependent- did not know I was here for insults... or judgements... i am growing, and venting)<p>You are choosing to act like a victim - and yet much of your misery and your suffering is caused BY YOU and YOUR behavior.<p>(harsh)<p>When your children throw temper tantrums...do you hug them and tell them that it is ok?<p>(I am not a child, and YES< I DO expect understanding)<p>Because really, thats what you are doing. You haven't accepted the reality of the people in your life, or the reality of your choices and your life. Instead you are wasting your time trying to manipulate and force reality and people into something better to your liking rather than acknowledging what IS. Until you acknowledge what is, you won't be able to move forward.<p>(How does she know all my feelings and what I think from my posts?, especially angry vents?)<p>Instead, when reality isn't to your liking, you start throwing violent angry temper tantrums, and then you log on here to ask for comfort or validation of your own crazy unacceptable behavior.<p>(who is she to say this?)<p>As I've told you in the past, I too am married to an active alcoholic. I have insane inlaws too. I do understand how absolutely out of control and desperate your situation may feel - but Honey, your choices are keeping you where you are at.<p>(is it too close to home, could that be it?)<p>More often than not, you ignore what I have to tell you. Which is totally your choice and you are completely free to do it. But then I have to ask...why do you keep coming back here? It's not like anyone else here is telling you anything differently.<p>( Am I supposed to do what a poster says? on theeir time schedule?<p>Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I think you are pretty insane right now...wouldnt you agree?<p>(NO, I do not agree that I am insane, I would think that expecting other people to completely agree with your mode of thinking and do what you say on an internet board might be slightly in that direction?) <p>Anyway, if what you want is for me to tell you "Poor Honey, what an evil guy your FIL is" then I am sorry, but I can't do so.<p>(Did not ask you to, and did not ask for all this MEAN criticism)<p>You are going to run into sick crazy people your entire life. It's time to stop focusing and blaming other people for your life and to take responsiblity for yourself instead of "venting" with the intention of getting validation for your temper tantrums.<p>(Did not throw temper tantrum, I happen to feel what I did is Ok with me, and I am involved with some people who lack respect for woemen, etc.... etc.) <p>Now, if your H or your FIL was posting here...I'd have alot of pretty harsh things to say to both of them about their behavior. But they aren't here and they aren't asking for help. <p>(you try dealing with them, OK, walk in my shoes, before insulting me so much!)<p>YOU are here, and YOU are asking what to do, and so I am telling you what is screamingly clear to most people on these boards. I am talking to you about YOUR behavior. Isn't that what your sig line is about? You don't have to LIKE (but you do have to accept) your situtation, but you can like yourself in it. So do you like yourself after this incident? I bet you don't. Was it helpful to anyone? Nope. Did it change anything? Nope. Who did it ultimately harm the most? YOU.<p>(way too harsh, and way too sure of yourself.)<p>So Honey...when you are ready to step out of victimhood, I'll gladly be back to share with you my experience, strength and hope. But until then, realize that your problems right now are the result of your own choices and you are NOT a victim.<p>(never said I felt a victim, I vented, OK)

honey,<p> Please get past this. It does you no good and it does the board no good for this to continue. <p> BR has said she will no longer post to your threads. You asked this of her and she agreed. Please let this subject end. <p> jd

Honey -- its entirely within your rights to have hurt feelings.<p>But instead of rehashing Brambles post, why don't you go back and read 10 of your posts? I did, just this morning. (calling OWH, going to BS's house, trespassing, threatening H with divorce, and the ones where you said you see how co-dependant you really are!)<p>Bramble is simply trying to give you something to think about. That you're not changing YOUR OWN behavior -- which might be a contributing factor to your marriage troubles. That instead of contantly feeling outraged or angry about an interaction with your H or your FIL, maybe you need to change the way YOUR behavior in these situations.<p>Can we somehow change this dialogue? Instead of talking about what THEY have done to HURT you, how about we talk about what YOU are going to do DIFFERENTLY?

Honey,
Sorry, gotta agree with BR on this one. It's fine to vent once in awhile but really virtually all of your posts are complaints about how your life is so awful. You very rarely share anything about how you are trying to remedy your situation or your Plan A or how anyone's advice has been applied and proved useful to you. You appreciate sympathy but rarely heed advice. For people on this board who are here to actually try to fix their situations and are giving advice ostensibly to help others fix their situations, this can be very frustrating.<p>All one needs to do is look at this post to see that what BR says is true. In your eyes, you are being victimized and want everyone here to know it and feel sorry for you. It's just not productive and that's not what this board is for. <p>Until you turn some of that negative, "please feel sorry for me" energy into something positive and productive for the benefit of your marriage, the advice you get here does you no good and it's virtually worthless for anyone to offer you anything but empty sympathy.<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: sweetjane ]</p>

Hi Honey. I think it would be best for you if you let this go. I posted to you today about your situation. You need your strength and energy to work on your situation at home. I REALLY don't think anyone is trying to hurt you. You have so much going on in your life right now. Sometimes we just have to let things go. There is no "winning" an arguement. There never will be. The only way to move forward is to focus on you and NOT what you think others have done to you.<p>With love,
Clear

Honey - yes your life is not a bowl full of mints. It is pure h*ll, and life is not that great right now. I know, I am there, and I am trying to deal with it too. Wish I could take the easy way out, but God won't let me.<p>It is hard to focus on yourself, when you tought you could trust your spouse for the rest of your life. I didn't know that my spouse never loved me at the altar. He has stated that here many times. I feel used, and a cow for having his babies. I would not trade any one of them in, but I was used. Honesty is a big factor now. Honesty hurts like h*ll, but things are the way they are. I won't say they will get better, cause I don't feel they will get better either.<p>The hurt you are feeling is so real, so intense, so valid. You have been betrayed by the person you loved, gave your body to, and etc. They tossed it aside and did exactly the same to another woman without any remorse or guilt. My H did the same. Still to this day, says the affair was to happen.<p>I suggest doing physical activity, this is the only thing that has really helped me feel better. I have felt better after leaving exercising with physical therapy, and after PT is done I am going to join a gym. To keep getting in better shape, and also to meet new guys. Phyical therapy helps produce endorphins to help the moods, I think it has helped me. Then after PT, I come home to a H who doesn't acknowledge me, doesn't kiss me, doesn't hug me, doesn't pat me on the back, takes whatever I have in my hands, and goes back to the computer. It is the pits.<p>No one was really calling you names, just trying to help you, to help yourself. I have been in the same boat, but I finally am starting to get it through my head, the WS doesn't care about the BS, the WS is a selfish individual who cares nothing about family or friends (at least mine doesn't). I am going to find a good friend, and live with this friend, but there will never be another marriage for me. I will not trust another man with my heart and body. I can't, not with what my H did, and still feels to this day. He is one of those fence sitters. He states he's not, but if anyone lived here, the real answer would be revealed.<p>Take care, and talk here, we will try to comfort you.

Honey,
lots of great advice here. I don't really have anything to add. Just try to see the value in everything, and in everyone. k?<p>As you can see, there's all kinds of personalities and experience on this forum. That's what makes it great! You'll grow the most when you can accept all forms of "help", from all kinds of sources.<p>How are you? <p>Hang in there! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Ah yes Thinker! EXERCISE. Excellent idea! I work out regularly and when I am having a super bad day I drive to the gym for cardio. It really helps!!!<p>Even a walk around the neighborhood can be very refreshing!

Ya know, I mentioned what I did not like about the pposts from br, and got more frustrated by all the oldies coming to her defense... I am glad you guys have a club that makes newbies or anyone that does not agree with you on the outside.. as you can see if you look there are quite a few who agree with my comments... and in particular..<p>several times... BR wanted to know WHY I DID not read her posts more carefully and follow her advise?<p>PLEASE><p>thanks to all, I am here to grow, and I am not all the things I have been called, unfortunately I do not feel anywhere near as good about this place as I once did... as being open and frank aobut how one feels here... does not seem to fly.. and I do not think that is the purpose of the board... <p>I do think it is a place for sharing and talking, not for blackballing or pushing people around.. or RULING.. in strict concepts that a few people think are MB principles ... where in the book of the harley's principles does it say that we should put each other down to help straighten each other out...<p>IN MY OPINION THAT IS A BIG LB! If you would not like it from your spouse... why would you do itk here... or if your spouse would not like it... <p>I am not helped by being name called, nor am I helped by being told by tons of people that BR IS RIGHT, she helped me,... nanananana... I saaid I did not like it, and all of you br supporters, and honey bashers... have made it worse... thanks to those who have been kind.<p>Not feeling very welcome anymore.<p>H

Honey,<p>Not all "oldies" are jumping to BR's defense - I have been here going on 3 years, so I guess I qualify as an oldie. I have rarely, if ever, agreed with her on anything, and I too was offended by her posts to you.<p>BTW, the Harley's say co-dependence is a good thing, and since BR has, in another post, said that she assumed (incorrectly, I might add) that just by being here all of us agree with all of the Harley's marriagebuilder concepts, therefore perhaps you should assume that her calling you co-dependent was praise, not criticism.

thanks nellie, I know it is not "ALL" oldies... I think I have gotten the point out.. and I appreciate your post... We are all different and have different perspectives.. and I think that is where we can learn and grow from.<p>I appreciate your posts... and I too agree that the codependency movement is destorying marriages across america... I try and try to understand codependecny.. and I try hard not to enable my alcoholic in my life... etc... but there are just so man y normal aspects of marriage and lvoing someone that can be called codependt... I just agree that it can all be twisted and misunderstood to the point of us not being good to our loved ones by detaching too much!?

Hi Honey,<p>I'm not going to jump into the argument about whether BR was right or not. I would, however, like to say something about co-dependency and dealing with an alcoholic spouse. In that situation codependency is not always a good thing. (This came from Steve Harley himself). When you are too co-dependent on an alcoholic spouse, it can also enable the addiction. As the former wife of a very active alcoholic and drug addict, I can now see how true that is. <p>Just something to think about...<p>Mitzi [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]