I read your post and while I understand where you are coming from completely I disagree. I don't think it's a matter of whether or not I want to be right or be with my SO (as we are not married, but after 4+ years I treat it the same) I think that somewhere in between the two I have the choice to be with someone who is what I want him to be i.e loyal, honest, and trustworthy. You're right I can accept him for who he is or I can decide that who he is is not someone I wish to be with anymore, I will not accept that he will never understand my pain, and only thinks of his affairs as mistakes, that to me is minimalizing it, and it's just unacceptable. If he can't realize the impact of what he did, and know its more than a mistake then I don't see how he can be trusted not to do it again. I only speak for the man in my life, but taking him as he is is just not an option, I will not settle any longer for less than what I deserve. This is not to say I disagree with what goes on between you and yours, but your statement just doesn't ring true for everyone, at least not me. <p>Bridgette

I agree with you bridgette... Br posts have been quite down on my own life choices today, and lately... I am sorry she feels that her choices are the ONLY right ones.. this is rather closed minded.<p>I agree in not taking less than what one deserves! H

Sorry to intrude on this post but let's not resort to taking things too personally when advice is given. It's evident that BrambleRose is very intelligent and knows her way around the MB principles. Althought the answer may not be the right one for you, or maybe just not what you want to hear,it is given with only the best intentions I'm sure. Good luck to you [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: TinyDancer ]</p>

Don't be so quick to jump on the defensive, I was not being mean or hurtful I was simply pointing out that the way she feels doesn't apply to everyone. I felt the need to say it because it seemed to me that she was saying that this is what she has learned and it is the right way to go. I just got here and am in no mood to fight with any of you, nor did I realize that we were not allowed to disagree with people. Forgive me. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img]

some1s_mom ~ <p>Disagree away, I'm certainly not offended...but I also think you have misunderstood what I wrote.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I will not accept that he will never understand my pain, and only thinks of his affairs as mistakes, that to me is minimalizing it, and it's just unacceptable.<hr></blockquote><p>What do you mean by this?<p>What do you mean by acceptance?<p>When I am talking about acceptance...I am talking about acknowledging the reality of a situation. <p>I do not mean by acceptance that you have to like or agree or even put up with someone else's feelings. <p>By acceptance I mean that you accept what IS. Not what you want it to be.<p>You can not change how another person thinks or feels by refusing to accept it. In fact, refusal to accept that our spouses think differently than we do is a recipe for disaster. <p>What I was talking about on the "RIGHT" thread, and what I am talking about now is Disrespectful Judgements.<p>I did not LIKE that my H felt that he had just made a "mistake". But the reality was that he DID feel that way. At that point in time, my H's values and feelings included the fact that he did not feel that he had really done something terrible to me. But also remember, he FELT that he had done nothing wrong...but he was willing to acknowledge that *I* felt he had, and he was willing to include MY needs into his actions and plan for recovery.<p>The fact of the matter is that I had to stop imposing MY values on my H. I had to stop judging him and accepting that he was who he was, and that he was NOT who I had wanted him to be. My H was who he was. He didn't demand that I just get over it or that I agree with HIM that it was a simple mistake. He has through the last 8 months been extremely patient with my rollercoaster of anger and pain and healing. <p>Does this mean that I simply allow him to disrespect and mistreat me because his values are different? No, not at all. <p>It means that when my H asked to move home, rather than asking him how he felt about the OW, and about his affair and about me...I asked him what he planned to do to rebuild my trust and what he planned to do to fix our marriage.<p>His answer and subsequent actions were what I based my decision on. He made choices and actions that I needed. I could have held out and demanded that he feel the same way I did about it all. I could have selfishly demanded that he align his values and emotions with mine. <p>THAT is also a disrespectful judgement, because it assumes that MY values and stance is superior. <p>I'll quote Dr. Harley:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.
<hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If he can't realize the impact of what he did, and know its more than a mistake then I don't see how he can be trusted not to do it again. <hr></blockquote><p>You don't have to trust him. If you need your SO to realize the impact of his actions on you in order to reconcile, and recover...well, thats fine - I don't disagree or believe that you don't have the right to have that in your relationship.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I only speak for the man in my life, but taking him as he is is just not an option, I will not settle any longer for less than what I deserve.<hr></blockquote><p>Ok...so what are you saying here? If who your SO is not acceptable to you...then I would be the first to say that you absolutely have the right to not settle for less that what you need and deserve. So your resulting action is...what? Do you insist that he feel what you think is appropriate....or do you look elsewhere for what you deserve?<p>I think where perhaps we disagree (if I understand your points) is that you seem to believe that you have the right to demand that your SO become the person you feel you deserve.<p>My position is that you can not force anyone to change or to be other than who they are. And to do so is disrespectful. All we can do is choose to be with people who already ARE and choose to be what we deserve.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>This is not to say I disagree with what goes on between you and yours, but your statement just doesn't ring true for everyone, at least not me. <hr></blockquote><p>You seem to think that somehow I have just "settled" for some low life that I'll never be able to trust because he didn't feel deeply remorseful for his actions when we agreed to reconcile.<p>I didn't settle. My H made a choice to be someone that I found acceptable. THATS the difference. He choose it freely, rather than simply appeasing me by submitting to my demands.<p>And for the record, because my "Do you want to be RIGHT" thread was started last August...my H has come to understand and empathize with my pain - and is now embarrassed and ashamed of his actions. But that is neither here nor there.
He is now a much better H to me than he has EVER been...but it was a result of his choices, not my demands that got us here.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>When I am talking about acceptance...I am talking about acknowledging the reality of a situation...By acceptance I mean that you accept what IS. Not what you want it to be. You can not change how another person thinks or feels by refusing to accept it.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I totally agree with this. Sometimes MBers get so focused on saving their marriages that they stop hearing what their own spouses have to say. HEAR, and accept. That's what I believe...<p>When I finally HEARD my husband telling me that I was verbally abusive, I looked for some help, and found this site. This was last year. We have been married for 9. Amazing how long it took me to hear what he was saying...<p>And you know, I didn't actually hear him until I stood to lose him altogether. Tsk-tsk! shame on me!

some1s_mom, I'm interested in reading your answers to BrambleRose's questions.

I don't want to butt in myself but.......<p>some1s_mom....are you familiar with the MB concepts?

To all of you who, who may have not liked what BR has to say, do a search & read her story, it is one of MB true sucess stories.<p>Isn't that what ya'll want to be a MB sucess story? to have a successful relationship<p>Ya'll may not like advice from old timers or what they have to say but when you have been around this site for a long time, you have seen it all. this is one reason many old timers stop coming here as people get offened over advice. <p>remember these people have made the mistakes and learned<p>guess it is like children everyone has to learn for themselves<p>BR is one very wise lady, I wish my story had her ending, <p>You may not agree with what she or any oldtimer has to say but you can learn from it.<p>to all newbies before you come down on an oldtimer or anyone else for their advice, read their story so you can see where they are coming from, you might be surprised & see yourself whre they were a yr, or 2 or even 3 ago.<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: sing ]</p>

The bad part is....that most of our stories are lost....since the board crashed some time ago.<p>Maybe some of us that are in recovery should post our stories over.....not looking forward to that....since it's so long....but willing if anyone thinks that it might help.<p>I agee with you wholeheartedly sing.....without people like BR....I would not be where I am today.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Miss Priss:
<strong>The bad part is....that most of our stories are lost....since the board crashed some time ago.<p>Maybe some of us that are in recovery should post our stories over.....not looking forward to that....since it's so long....but willing if anyone thinks that it might help.<p>I agee with you wholeheartedly sing.....without people like BR....I would not be where I am today.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>but didin't the board crash in 99 or early 2000, I lurked for a while during that time but didn't start posting till fall of 2000 & I know you can pull up those posts

BrambleRose: I do accept what is. What is happens to be he has been cheating on me for the four years that I've known him. I accept that. What I cannot accept as you have is that he thinks of it as just a mistake when it is so much more than that. I cannot be with him anymore because he feels that way, I have no intentions of trying to make him feel what I feel or impose my values on him. I simply have to leave and find someone else (later in life) who does share my values. Because I cannot accept his. My "resulting action" is me packing my things and moving home. I think you get the idea that I want to force him to change his view or his values, I do not. I just thought we held the same values and now that I see we don't I have to go, because whether they are right or not, I don't know, but I do know that I need someone who shares them. I think I understand what you are saying about your husband making a choice to become someone that you find acceptable. In my case he feels what he feels right now, and as long as he does he is incapable of being someone I find acceptable. Maybe one day like your husband he will grow and change, I sure hope so. <p>And I did not realize until after the fact that the thread was started so much earlier, I would have take my post back but it was too late.<p>Miss Priss: No I am not familiar with MB concepts, I only came here as an alternative to the other board I was frequenting, I have read the information offered, but not taken the time to study it. I am not married to this man, nor will I ever be so no (Sing) that is not what I wish to be. Maybe this isn't the board for me, I thought it was a place to just share ideas and hear others stories, but I see it is really a community of people working on the MB concepts, so I clearly don't fit in.

For BrambleRoses's story, click the link below. Her story is located on the third page, toward the middle of the page. <p>Rosie's Story - Click Here<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

I havwe to chime in again, I really think some of the old timers think they know all the answers... sorry, but this board is not a "clique" as some of you are trying to make it... at least I hope not-<p>i do not know what the BIG DEAL is with disagreeing with BR... she admits she had quite a problem with judging her H and trying to get him to live HER way... well I seem to feel, and so do some others here.. .that BR and some others... seem to think others on the board, should do everything THEIR WAY, just like they did to their spouses.. and are accusing of doing...<p>I wanted to get it out,,, that some of the advise was not good, and all I have gotten by a lot of what I guess are friends... are opinionated responses... not at all looking at what I pointed out... <p>NONE of us know the answer here... we can offer some experience strength and hope... but who as a poster dare say they KNOW the answer and JUDGE another for not doing what THEY SAID><p>BRAMBLE ROSE, has specifically in several of her posts accussed me of not following HER advice.. not READING HER POSTS TO ME< OR doing what SHE advised, excuse me... take what you like and leave the rest...<p>I dare say, some of you old timers have gotten a little stuck, and this is not where the principles of mb lie... some of you are not qualified to give advise...who is? Maybe the harley's if they were posting... especially demand that your advise be followed-<p>I really do not consider living with an active alcoholic a success story, and that is what br does... a lot of therapists have told me, that a marriage to an active alcoholic is no marriage at all... becuase you have no partner... how else can you stay married to someone who disrespects you all the time by their drinking...<p>sorry that I have been reactive to my spouses problems... I am in healing,,, but come on guys... this is not old timers vs. new here... or recovered club, vs... problem club.<p>thanks, HONEY

someones mom, i see they are looking at running you off too, quite sad... I am trying to stay, but it looks that since I rocked the boat and said what I thought the old clubbies are blackballing my opinion that BR may not be a GOD??<p>H

I have read BR's story and am happy for her that she has what she wants in her marriage. But as for me I have not married this fool yet and will spare myself any further pain by moving on before I get legally bound to him.

And as for the name of the thread I've decided my answer is going to be I want to be married to someone who knows what is right and will do it.

Some1s_mom ~ After reading your reply I think that except for perhaps some differing understanding of the meaning of "accept" that we are on the same page.<p>Am I right in understanding that you are accepting the reality of who he is, and what you are finding is that its not enough for you? And as a result, rather than remake him...you are getting out of the relationship?<p>If I understood this correctly, then you and I are most definitely on the same page.

By george, I think you've got it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Well then - see, we don't disagree after all [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You just happen to be one of those smart people that "got it" the "easy" way. It took me years and years and lots of frustration and self-defeating behavior and alot of pain before I became willing to simply accept reality and to stop trying to force my will on the world.<p>THATS what the other thread was about. That I decided to stay in my marriage, and that you have decided to leave your relationship are really kinda just interesting notes to the topic.<p>Never at any point have I ever thought that there was a morally superior position in accepting someone as they were and STAYING in the marriage. These 2 things are totally separate issues.<p>My position is that you accept reality and then decide what you are going to do about it. And then after that - you are no longer a victim. You made a choice!<p>In MY situation, my changed attitudes and changed behaviors...my stepping out of victimhood...were enough to bring about willing changes in my H. I would not have stayed with him had he stayed as he was...no way. But that wasn't really the point...the point was that regardless of the outcome of my marriage, I had to stop lovebusting with disrespectful judgements and selfish demands.<p>I'll be the first one to say that you absolutely have the right to walk on a relationship that has infidelity in it. Especially if you aren't married. I chose not to walk - but I can't sit around on a pity pot about it anymore - I gave up that right when I took responsibility for myself by choosing to stay. But that doesn't for a second lessen my respect for someone who chooses to walk.<p>So in the end, I *think* we actually agree after all [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]