Hi, I read your thread about being right and being married, and I understand. You are right. In my situation,I have discovered that I have embraced the "poor, pitiful, me syndrome". My question is how do you reach full forgiveness? My husband is doing all of the right things, there is no drug, alcohol, sexual, physical, or verbal abuse, no running around, and no put downs. So, why can't I completely forgive, I want to, his actions have backed all of his words. I want to forgive and cast all into the sea of forgetfullness, like God does with us. His "mistake" happened years ago, I knew part of it then, but in late Nov. recieved the whole truth. So in a sense it is very fresh, but we have had over ten years for him to "prove" himself in our marriage. What do you think? If you have any questions about the whens, whats, whys, and hows, just ask them. I look forward to your response, Thank you.

This is worth a look:<p>http://www.radicalforgiveness.com/whatis.html<p>I see it a little differently myself, as accepting the inevitability of certain past events, but you might find that helpful anyway.

sfmc,<p>I hope you don't mind. I just had one little thing to say. The act of forgiveness for ME was not for anyone else's benefit other than my own. Forgiveness allowed me to move forward and to grow. I don't think I will ever forget the things that happened to me, but not being able to forgive stunted my growth.<p>Love,
Clear

Hi, thank you for your responses. I agree completely, forgiveness is the key and I do feel my growth is being stunted by not giving into it completely. I don't harbor ill feelings for my husband, and my marriage has benefitted from the full disclosure of the situation. Finally there are no black areas that impede our progress, because once a secret, or a lie is revealed it no longer has any power. In that way, the experience is restoring and building up our M. There is a lot of relief in finally having the whole truth, as painful as it is. Many things in my life would not have happened of I'd known way back when. I am thankful for now and for all of my and our experiences up to this point. Age and maturity have also helped, we were very young when all the "stuff" happened. Both of us were basically children, teenagers, and the reality is that teens think they know a lot more than they really do. Now I am almost 30, and my outlook is very different, when they say God is always on time, boy are they right!! If I had recieved the info at any time in the past other than now, It would have probably been the end of my marriage. I like my marriage and our life together. We have had our share of bumps, but the path we are on now is great. There is still work to do and always will be, but there is finally joy to accompany the work. For me I want to completely forgive, for myself, so I will not hold anything back that could impede our progress. thank you for your replies, and the web site was informative, thanks for suggesting it.

Hi sfmc ~<p>I've gotten pretty experienced with acceptance and pretty good with understanding LBs...<p>but the whole forgiveness thing is something I'm working through myself right now.<p>I do see in myself that when I am on the pity pot that I have a hard time with forgiveness. In fact, my resentments build and sometimes spiral out of control. When I am on the pity pot, I feel RIGHT, morally superior, and of course, completely unable to see my own part in any given situation. Victimhood keeps me from growing!<p>Clearview is right about forgiveness being a gift you give yourself - although perhaps my take on forgiveness is different than most.<p>Someone on here had a sig that said something like: Resentment is like taking poision and then waiting for the other person to die.<p>Resentments will eat you alive - and so if by forgiveness you mean letting go of resentments...absolutely we must strive to do so...or become rotten from the inside out.<p>But my take on forgiveness is that you can not forgive someone who hasn't asked for forgiveness. So while I haven't forgiven the OW - she hasn't asked for my forgiveness - I am slowly, SLOWLY letting go of some of my resentment towards her.<p>If I forgive her, then I am imposing MY values on her by judging and assuming that she knew and understood the evil she was choosing to do to me. As I've come through recovery and I understand a bit more from conversations with my H...its clear that she didn't think what she was doing was wrong. So ... I'll work on letting go of resentments, and leave her to her life and her own conscience. Its not my place to do anything else.<p>As for my husband...gosh...he's done everything that I've needed him to do. My lack of forgiveness is NOT because of anything he is doing or not doing now. <p>So, I've just had to accept that *I* am not healed enough yet to let go. Does it mean I beat him up and punish him? No. I just have to get really honest with myself and see that I really do still hold alot of resentment and anger - and until I work through that....I can't forgive. So while I have CHOSEN to be willing to forgive...I'm not there yet...I have alot of work still to do on myself. <p>Being patient with myself, and accepting that I'm imperfect and can't get it "right" all the time helps alot. I'll get there...and as long as I am not allowing myself to stagnate in self-pity...I'm pleased to find myself progressing along [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Bramble Rose*<p>You are helping me so much with your posts.<p>Just wanted to let you know. Keep being you.<p>Thanks,<p>Pepper (a RRR invader)

BrambleRose,
I never thought of resentment like that. Come to think of it I never really gave it much thought. I think you made some excellent points and have given me some things to think about.<p>There was a lady that spent the night with my ex bf. She was friendly to my face but was poison behind my back. She KNEW what she was doing and I was angry at her AND him because they knew what they did.<p>At the same time that is the only way she knows. Her self-esteem and self-worth are measured by how many men she can have, and in the two years I have known her she hasn't wanted a single man. <p>Thanks for your thoughts.

I just changed my posting name from "Yesterday" to the real "me"..... just so I don't confuse you later BR .... cuz, I'm going to be posting to you asking for guidance.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Thank you BR for responding. Yes, resentment is what I am talking about. I did feel I had to forgive the OW, and I have. I even pray for her now. And as far as my H, it sounds much like your situation, NOW isn't the problem, there isn't anything he could do any better. He has taken responsibility for what he did, asked for my forgiveness, and has been very open to any discussion on or any of my questions about that time in our lives. It is more than I ever expected, it is better than I thought it could be. One thing I am working through is that he buried the whole truth all of these years. He admits it was to protect himself, his words " I couldn't tell you because you would leave me, and I thought you would never find out, and I didn't want you to hurt any more than you already had over what you did know about it. Every time I said I was sorry it was for all of it, even if you didn't know about all." In retrospect, he is right, at any other time in our marriage the possibility was very great that I would leave. Why is now so different? Well, we separated for 2 years, completely unrelated to this problem, and have been back together since May 01. The separation was brought on by a major life change- his career. It spiraled out of control, and depression set in. When he acknowledeged the depression, took ownership of it and then sought help, our marriage mended. During the 2 years we were separated, I spent a lot of time reflecting on me. Joined a church, prayed and studied. I grew up. I quit "owning" what was not mine and focused on taking responsibility for what was. I had many faults, and worked through those. I saw a counselor, and met with my pastor regularly. It was a time of Bible study, and a time that I could develop spiritually. Our marriage is improving because of God. I learned that I placed too many things ahead of God, and I needed to restructure my priorties. My H felt he wasn't as important as other family members, I am doing what is neccessary to put my family and marriage first. Once I started to realize that regardless of my H's faults, I still had HUGE FAULTS that weren't related to him, I began to heal. I told him at one point that I needed him get better for himself first, and then we could attempt working on us, BUT when I took my own advice I got better. So, accepting reality is a blessing, it allows me to let myself and others make mistakes. None of us have to be perfect, and each of us has free will. I am not responsible for my H, or his actions but I am responsible for my own. At one point in the separation, I made the decision to be the best wife I knew how to be for myself, not as a reaction to him or what I felt he deserved. God expects certain things from me as a Christian wife, and it is my responsibility to meet those standards. Sorry this is so long. THank you for all of your responses.

I wanted to chime in on the forgiveness thing because I have not yet forgiven my husband or the OW because neither one has exhibited truly repentant behavior. God only forgives REPENTANT sinners, so I don't believe he wants us to forgive the unrepentant either. In fact, I think we may do more harm than good by not holding wrongdoers accountable for their actions.<p>However, God makes it very clear that he owns the vengeance department and we are not to go there.<p>In some cases it is a matter of definition. I've heard forgiveness defined as releasing my need to hurt you as much as you hurt me (not seeking vengeance). That letting go of a need for revenge is what we can and should do in all cases of being harmed by another, whether that person is repentant or not.<p>But forgiveness that leads to restoration requires repentance. The story of the Prodigal Son is a perfect illustration:<p>The father stands ready to forgive, always looking afar off hoping for the son to return, but forgiveness doesn't take place until the son comes to himself, realizes what he did, feels remorse, turns away from the wrongdoing, resolves to make it right, and then follows through with appropriate ACTION: He gets up out of the pigsty and makes his way TO the father. Then HE tells the father that he sinned against him and is no longer worthy to be called his son. The father doesn't have to point this out to him. The son already knows and acknowledges it, both verbally and by his actions.<p>It is THEN that the father calls for the fatted calf and the rejoicing begins. In other words, the father waited until the son "got it". Once he got it, reconciliation could take place.<p>As long as my H verbalizes what he did as a "F-up", it is obvious he doesn't get it. When he can verbalize to me what he did to me the way he was able to verbalize it before we were married when he described HIS experiences as a BS, then I will know he gets it. He just hasn't come to himself yet, so I, like the Prodigal Son's father, wait to forgive.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong> I have not yet forgiven my husband or the OW because neither one has exhibited truly repentant behavior. God only forgives REPENTANT sinners, so I don't believe he wants us to forgive the unrepentant either.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I have an excellent book called, "Forgive and Forget" and in it we are told to forgive, NOT because the person deserves it, but for OURSELVES. There are some people who will NEVER be repentant, EVER. Are we to harbor those feelings for the rest of our lives? No, I don't think so!<p>It certainly helps things along when the person who has hurt us says they are sorry and changes behaviors, but... it is not necessary for forgiveness. <p>I hear what you're saying about God, and His devine forgiveness, but we are not God and often cannot judge a person from the inside, although God can.

Hi, on the subject of forgiveness, if you are a Christian, you are required to forgive. The party that wronged you NEVER has to ask for forgiveness, but as Christians we are required to forgive, Forgive so you will be forgiven- . If you have anything against anyone, forgive so God will forgive you-Mark 11:25. I know it sounds very painful, and it is. I don't know the spiritural affliation of any of those who post here, but this is what I believe is expected of Christians. It is a long process, and I am still working through it. For me, everytime I think, Finally I've done it completely, something will trigger it, and I'll be looking at him and images of them will flash through my mind. Where do those come from and what purpose do they have? I have noticed if I roll around in self pity, about anything, from the way I feel physically, to some emotional trauma, the triggers are more frequent. I think I have categorized those feelings in the feel bad part of my brain, so when I feel bad, nonrelated to this particular problem, it raises its ugly head and says, HERE I AM. So when I am sick, or overly tired, I need to learn to recognize how I really feel and why, to help prevent these "LIE" feelings from surfacing and covering the real reason for my discomfort or pain. Does that make any sense to anyone else? Somehow those feelings creep up and almost say, well if you feel bad, this must be the reason, since it is the worst you have ever felt. When in actuality, I may just be having a difficult monthly, or my head hurts from a sinus infection. Has anyone else experienced this type of transferrance? I hope my spelling isn't too bad!!! Let me know, and thank you for all of your responses.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong><p>However, God makes it very clear that he owns the vengeance department and we are not to go there.<p>In some cases it is a matter of definition. I've heard forgiveness defined as releasing my need to hurt you as much as you hurt me (not seeking vengeance). That letting go of a need for revenge is what we can and should do in all cases of being harmed by another, whether that person is repentant or not.<p>But forgiveness that leads to restoration requires repentance. The story of the Prodigal Son is a perfect illustration:<p>.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think Conqueror laid the issue of forgiveness out in the most clear and concise manner I have ever seen on MB. It is correct to say that forgiveness requires repentence on the part of the wrongdoer. However, that does not mean that I cannot release my bitterness, and thusly thier hold on me, without formally forgiving that person. I may give up my bitterness and anger towards that person - and maybe even pray for them! - but that doesn't mean that I would formally forgive an unrepentent person. That would be unbiblical. <p>On another note, I had a discussion with a dear friend of mine about giving my WS another "chance" if I found out he was having a second affair. I would not give him a second chance and my friend insisted that I was REQUIRED to forgive him if he repented and asked for my forgiveness. My stance is that, yes, I would forgive him under those circumstances, BUT I would not stay married to him. The two options are not mutually exclusive.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sfmc:
<strong> My question is how do you reach full forgiveness? My husband is doing all of the right things, there is no drug, alcohol, sexual, physical, or verbal abuse, no running around, and no put downs. So, why can't I completely forgive, I want to, his actions have backed all of his words. .</strong><hr></blockquote><p>sfmc,<p>This all takes time! The sting of the affair is all very fresh for you. It will take some time for you to recover from the shock of such a betrayal. I don't think I came to a point where I really forgave or TRUSTED until he had demonstrated his trustworthiness and committment for 8 months or so.

Melodylane,
Hi thank you for your reply. Time is a great friend and enemy simultaneously. Since it is fresh for me, it will take a while to be where I want to be. I disagree with the thought that a person must first ask for forgiveness before they can be forgiven. When the person who wronged another realizes and truly repents, then it is their responsibility to seek out those they wronged and ask for forgiveness. I do believe it is biblical to forgive someone who never asks for forgiveness. I didn't say I liked it, but I do believe it is required of me as a Christian. Some people will NEVER admit they hurt another, but we are still required to forgive, so that we will be forgiven. I think the forgiveness thing is really for the person for the person doing the forgiving. Once you forgive another, the burden is lifted from you and the sole responsibility is left with the party that wronged you. Ideally, the person would initiate the process, and ask for forgiveness, but that doesn't always happen. I do agree that for the person that did the wrong, for them to get right with God and whoever they wronged, they must repent and ask for forgivness, but that is their responsibility. My responsibility is to forgive whether they ask for it or not, and that lifts the burden of responsibility from me and places it squarely on them. Looking forward to hearing from you soon!!

It's pretty clear throughout the Bible that repentence is a requirement for God's forgiveness and for our forgiveness. God does not hand out forgiveness for the unrepentent and wem can't execute a different standard for ourselves. Otherwise, it simply cheapens the concept of forgiveness and gives noone the motivation to change. I agree that it is a great sin, though, to NOT forgive a repentant person [what we don't forgive won't be forgiven us!]:<p>Luke 17
3So watch yourselves.
4"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him." <p>The Bible is rife with passages about the requirements for God's forgiveness:<p>Luke 13:5
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." <p>Mark 1:4
And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

I find this interesting because I always strive to do what's "right" in the eyes of God (though I woefully fail many times). <p>I see what you mean with the verses... but... how do we know if someone is truly repentent?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by new_beginning:
<strong>I find this interesting because I always strive to do what's "right" in the eyes of God (though I woefully fail many times). <p>I see what you mean with the verses... but... how do we know if someone is truly repentent?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Well, I think mostly by what they say and what we see. If someone says they are repentent and they go out and repeat the wrong act, then they are BSing you. On the other hand, if someone DOES change their actions and seems remorseful, we have to go with what we see. They might be fooling us, but only God knows thier heart so we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by new_beginning:
<strong><p>I have an excellent book called, "Forgive and Forget" and in it we are told to forgive, NOT because the person deserves it, but for OURSELVES. There are some people who will NEVER be repentant, EVER. Are we to harbor those feelings for the rest of our lives? No, I don't think so!<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm not talking about harboring ill will or any other destructive "feelings". I am talking about forgiveness in the form of restoration, which is why I made my point about definitions. I'm not talking about holding grudges. In fact, the exact opposite.<p>God does not forgive us for Himself because He needs it. He forgives us because WE need it, just as any other wrongdoer does. We certainly are not divine, but God repeatedly uses earthly analogies to explain his nature. He describes himself has a parent, a betrayed spouse, a husband. Sometimes He even uses animal behaviors to describe His feelings for us.<p>We may not be able to see into a person's heart the way God can, but he has assured us that by their fruits we will KNOW them, and repentance bears fruit.<p>Like I said, it can be a matter of semantics. I certainly have no need or intent to harm either my H, the OW, nor anyone else who has harmed me, and since neither I nor the OW are seeking to have a R with each other, I doubt she will seek my forgiveness, so I have no obsession about her. However, she definitely needs God's forgiveness, and God does not even want us to approach His altar until we are reconciled to (forgiven by) our brother if he has something against us. (Matthew 5:23-24.)<p>The 12-step programs also include making amends to those we have harmed. I maintain a forgiving posture for the OW, my ex-H and others who have harmed me, but so far they have not sought my forgiveness; however, it is there for the asking when they discover their need for it. Their state of unforgiveness does not affect my life negatively. My choice is to forgive. Their choice so far has been not to seek my forgiveness, therefore the forgiveness is still sitting there available to them at all times.<p>My H, on the other hand, IS seeking a R with me, and in order for that R to be restored, he will need to follow the steps of repentance, just as he will need to do in order to restore his R with God. He sinned against both of us. I think it would be presumptive of me to step in front of God and "grant" a forgiveness that he does not. I can offer forgiveness, just as God does, but I cannot force my H to come to himself and get up out of the pigsty and find his way home. I can stand looking for his return and run to meet him when he does, just as God does with me.<p>In Matthew 5:23-24, Jesus says we are to leave our gift at the altar if our brother has something against us, NOT if we have something against our brother.<p>The victim of sin is not required to do anything but leave vengeance to the Lord and forgive the repentant and is free to go to the altar. It is the perpetrator of sin that God wants to go make things right with his brother before he approaches the altar.<p>If forgiveness for sins without repentance is a viable option, then there would be no basis for the Christian faith. There would be no need for Jesus to die for us. Jesus LOVED us while we were yet in sin, and He made the choice to SACRIFICE Himself for us while we were yet in sin, and through his sacrifice made salvation, forgiveness, and restoration available to us that would not have been available to us otherwise. But he did not FORGIVE us while we were yet in our sin.<p>And there would be no need for anyone to repent if we are already forgiven.<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Hi Conqueror,<p>Yes, I hear you. Also, don't get me wrong, I have not "forgiven" the OW's in my case, although I have forgiven my ex-H. I have a very hard time with it all.<p>You're right about the 12-step programs too...<p>I just find it all so confusing.