Where does one end and the other begin????<p>First of all, let me start off by saying that I DO NOT IN ANY WAY justify my affair. There is absolutely no justification for it. I want to share my situation and I have to give background on how I *felt* at the time of the affair "phase" of my life and at the time of discovery. So, please, don't take my reasons and feelings at that time as me justifying what I did. I am not "blaming" anyone or any circumstances in my life for the choices I made. However, I do feel that I need to share pertinent information and how it relates to my thought processes at that particular time in my life.<p>Okay, here goes........<p>From the time I was a very small child I was molested repeatedly by several family members (male and female). I was raped at the age of 14 by a stranger. My parents were physically, emotionally, and verbally abusive. These experiences pretty much skewed my whole perception of love and acceptance and sexuality. I became sexually active (by my choice) at the age of 17 with my highschool sweetheart who is now my hubby. I got pregnant and we got married on my 18th birthday.<p>By the time my daughter was 1 year old I was working at a grocery store and a guy who was a few years younger than me started coming on to me. I felt that my sexuality validated ME as a person. If I was pretty and accepted that was all that mattered. I had sex with him and I told my husband about it. He blew up and left and went and talked to my parents. My dad came over and told me this...."Now, I know you really didn't have sex with that boy, you were just telling Eric that.....weren't you <with eyebrows raised>...basically, at that time in my life my father was perfect in my eyes....I allowed him to persuade me into lying to my husband and telling him that I only made up the part about us having sex and all we really did was kiss. Fast forward to a year or so later. Circumstances forced me to admit to my husband that I really did have sex with the OM. It was a one time thing. I was very young and immature (I believe I was about 20) and although I was somewhat remorseful I still didn't understand the full effects of what I was doing.<p>Now, fast forward to a few years later. Problems in the marriage. I felt unloved and very much a nobody. So, what did I do? I started losing weight and started acting out sexually. I fed myself off of my ego and other people's acceptance of me. I began an affair.....THE affair. At one point in the affiar the MM basically cut off contact with me....since I didn't have the validation I needed at that point I turned to others. I had become friendly with guy at work. I told my husband about him and how nice he was. C (the guy) asked me out to lunch one day and I accepted. He picked me up and I asked where we were going for lunch and he produced at key to a room. I honestly did not want to do that but I felt like I couldn't say no. I honestly and truly felt like I couldn't say NO. I don't know why I felt that way other than I didn't think I would be accepted by him. We went to the room and I hated it. I HATED IT. I hated myself because of it. This guy (C) was best friends with my best friend's fiance.<p>I didn't have any more contact with him....until....a weekend where my friends and I were supposed to be going away for a Girls Weekend at the lake. Okay, it was only supposed to be Girls Only...that is why I went. Then, after we were underway, my friend informed me that her fiance and his best friend (C) were going to be there. Nothing happened that weekend between him and me. He was a real jerk and not just to me...but to everyone. I ended up partying too hard and getting drunk and high and I dove into water that was too shallow. I received a spinal injury that I am still dealing with. (I now mark the injury up to one of the biggest lessons of my life).<p>Okay, once I came home from that weekend, there were hospital visits for my spinal injury and physical therapy and chiropractic and pain killers. During that weekend, I had talked to my husband on the phone and I mentioned that even though it was supposed to be Girls Only, some guys got invited without my knowledge. He was cool with that. So, once I got home I made a comment about how much of an [censored] C has been. My husband became suspicious because he felt like C and I had been intimate THAT weekend. I kept saying, "No, we weren't" and that was the truth....we were not intimate THAT weekend. (I know, I KNOW what y'all are thinking....but that was my reasoning at the time).<p>Fast forward, original MM calls me and our affair resumes. After a few months, I ended the affair. My friend and her fiance had their wedding and hubby and I went and C was there. I ended up addicted to the painkillers I was taking for my spinal injury and I ended up in a major depression...contemplating suicide. I checked myself into a hospital and received 1 month of Intensive In-Patient therapy and 1 month Out-Patient therapy. During an Intensive Family Weekend, I admitted my drug use to my husband. At that time I was still InPatient so we were only together during the day. That evening I talked to him on the phone and admitted THE affair.<p>Hubby pushed again for information about THAT WEEKEND and if anything happened on THAT WEEKEND. I truthfully told him NO. I know he could tell something just wasn't right because at first I only had nice things to say about C and suddenly, I was talking negatively about him.<p>Hubby kept pushing and pushing and finally...I admitted to........being a sex-and-love addict. I finally had a name to give to my actions and WHY I validated my self worth with sex. I saw the thing with C as part of my addiciton...I saw my affair as the "thing" that hurt my husband the most (and also part of my addiction). I felt like I was admitting my addiction and everything that goes with being a S&L addict.<p>Me not saying NO on that day was always a terribly degrading experience that I try to put out of my mind. I lost any self-repsect I had on the day I went to that room. I hated myself because of it. Of course, at the time I wasn't smart enough to figure out how my whole affair and everything else I was doing really hurting me and my husband.<p>Hubby and I went to counseling together. After years of recovery and me changing my thought processes and years of introspection and work I HAVE changed. I know people hear that alot.....and the Redbook Riff Raff here knows the work and dedication I have put into my marriage, my husband, and myself. They've seen me through the last year and 1/2 working my butt off to be a better ME. I no longer equate sex with love. I have a new concept of marriage....I realize that I really DO love my husband and I want to be married to him and HIM only. I accept full and totaly responsibility for what I did. I don't justify it. Please understand that my acting out and the affair and the one time thing happend over 6 years ago.<p>It has been six years of rebuilding.<p>Okay....now.....here is where the guilt and shame and self-servance comes in.<p>I feel terribly guilty NOW for not admitting to the one-time-thing with C. Even though at the time I answered truthfully that "nothing" happened that weekend....I still knew what my husband was getting at when he asked me. I am terribly, completely and utterly ashamed of myself that I exposed my husband to C at the wedding of my friend. I can't tell you how ashamed I am of it. I couldn't sleep last night because of it and I have been crying off and on all day.<p>Self-servance? Do I now admit to my husband that I had a one time thing with C? He has forgiven me for the affair. He has forgiven me for so many rotten and awful things I have done. I don't know if I would be admitting it NOW out of guilt or if I would be admitting it out of love for my husband. See, I do love my husband. I don't want to hurt him more than I already have. And I don't know if him "forgiving" me meant he was forgiving me for that whole time in my life or if he was just forgiving me just for THE affair.<p>I cannot fully express my self loathing right now. I totally and completely hate myself for my actions of years ago and not *fully* admitting THEN to my husband what I did. I want terribly to do the right thing by my husband and if he kicked me to the curb I wouldn't blame him or have any hard feelings against him. I would understand why he would do it. <p>I am in a quandry and I don't know what to do.<p>selket<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

Sel my dear friend... Sweetheart I did not know this is an issue for you! I need to think about this. I will talk to you SOON!<p>Love ya,
Clear

Selket,<p>You might do well to read Harley's thoughts on "radical honesty". You can find articles at the front of this site, or go to the JUST FOUND OUT section and look up "Onegoing's" posts. Within them you will find bookmarked a lot of the articles as well as notable posts by people here.<p>You are in an interesting situation. IF you don't tell your conscience will eat you up. If you do tell you will hurt your H and risk your marriage. However, if you do tell there is another outcome. Your marriage might become stronger. You will have to put up walls to protect this secret and if you do those walls will keep your H at a distance.<p>So do some reading and tell us what you think.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

((((( SEL )))))<p>When I can't quite get my mind around something, I try to reduce the problem to the lowest denominator. (Darn, I miss Kalani and all his math references!) This helps me think things through. AND ... I've seen you do this very thing for dozens and dozens of others you've helped.<p>Sooo, if you KNEW THEN what you know now, you would have acted differently. Yes? But, you didn't and you didn't.<p>It's like asking your young child to take responsibility for wetting her pants before she was potty trained! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Sorry .... that's about the lowest denominator I can come up with. Then, when she's older and fully trained, you want her to feel guilty for the time she wet her pants before she knew any better. You are that little girl Sel. You are still on that learning curve (just like the rest of us). You are sincere and committed ...... You've got what it takes!<p>Tell him. Tell him with your arms around him. Tell him over a cup of java. Tell him wearing your black leather teddy and your spike heels .... WHATEVER .. do not let this be a wedge between you.<p>You have walked through fire already. I bet he will surprise you with his response. <p>I have a question:<p>Do you feel worthy of his forgiveness and his love?<p>Unconditional love Sel ...... isn't that what YOU offer to him? Is he less likely to offer it to you?<p>Pepper

Oh Ms. Pepper you are a dear. I was searching for the right words to say but I really just don't know.<p>Sel, I emailed you.<p>Pepper, I think you did a great job even though Kalani's not here. Yes Selket, you are the child who was not potty trained. I think he will know that.<p>Love,
Clear

My dear friend Sel -- I'm sending you lots of hugs and prayers! I need to read this again and think....just remember to take some time to think yourself -- you don't have to do anything right at this moment! I got your e-mail and will reply soon.<p>Love ya,
JJ

I love what yesterday wrote to you...<p>There are two schools of thought that I have read... one to tell and one, not to tell...<p>I'm w/ the to tell group... I've read too much re: the not tell group who end up having to tell or end up having a 'block' later because they didn't.<p>Is there a voice in the back of your mind whispering "tell him."? A friend of mine says that is God... your concience... your Jiminy Cricket... 'cause you know it is between you... was it an out and out lie? no... but you know there was MORE to it... <p>If after six years, it still weighs on you and causes you to cry and lose sleep... then something should be done to alleviate your pain... 'cause when we are in pain so too are those around us...<p>my 2 cents...<p>Cali

Sel,<p> What a touching story. The pain throughout is evident. I am sorry for all you have endured.<p> One of the primary principles of this site is radical honesty. You will get many members telling you this. I always agree with this, but only to a point. <p> I believe in radical honesty when a person is first asked about something. Your situation is the biggest reason for it. Where you are now sucks. I am so sorry you chose to lie back then, even if it was really not a lie because H only asked about the one weekend. <p> The reason I am so torn by this issue is because H is likely recovered for the most part. From the pain of the information you did tell him about. To tell him now will likely cause untold anger and pain. Yes, you might very well loose him. <p> You have a tough decision to make. I pray everything works out for you. You deserve to have a happy life after all you have endured.<p> Good Luck and God Bless<p> jd

Here is what Dr. Harley says about this:<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html<p>Please pay close attention to the section titled, Should An Affair Be Revealed?, and what he says about truth and illusion.

Aaaah, Jesus.....<p>Pepper, is this one of those elephants in the living room? I've told myself all of these years that if I don't think about it it's not really there. It doesn't matter if I was potty trained or not....I still peed my pants and by me doing what I did...I hurt my husband. Why didn't I just effin tell him then? I know why....it was out of shame....that's it....pure and simple. I was too ashamed to heap more on him.<p>How many times can this man be hurt by me? Dear Lord, what in the world is wrong with me?<p>As I mentioned to Clearview in my email to her....I am not one for self pity. I don't buy into that crap...not for me. This truly has to do with ME doing what is RIGHT and having courage and being STRONG for my marriage, my husband, and my daughter.<p>Do I feel worthy of his forgiveness and love? You ask me this, Pepper, and I will answer you honestly..............no. No I don't. I don't feel worthy at all. Not in the least. Worthy...uh uh. Am I worthy of his grace once again? No. Are we ever worthy of grace? <p>Clear, thank you, Hon, I emailed you back.<p>JustLearning...thank you for the suggestion. I will check these out tomorrow....hubby will be home soon and I have to dry my eyes.<p>JJ, thank you so much. I will take some time on this...although I know the inevitable and RIGHT thing to do is to tell him. I'm not going to do it at this moment...I need time for clarity instead of running willy-nilly into this. <p>Cali, I hear you loud and clear. Thank you.<p>jd- the essence of your post is why this has plagued me so much. I don't want to dig up something he has put to rest. This is not about me and how I will be best served by telling him. This is totally and completely about him. Is this something that he needs to know? And how will I know if he needs to know without asking him? And how would I possibly go about asking him without telling him? A quandry indeed.<p>I'm sorry that I chose to lie, too. I'm truly, utterly and completely sorry for the things I did. I'm sorry that I didn't tell him then. I'm sorry for doing it in the first place. <p>I've choked on so much crow that to choke on more....if it will HELP HIM....will be something I will stand up and do. If need be, I will take it by the truckload.....if that is what he needs.<p>Somehow, I know this man loves me. He really loves me....how, I don't know. Why? It's a mystery. But, I know that he does and the thought of me trampling on his heart and bruising his love just one more time tears me apart.<p>How much can one person endure?<p>selket<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

Thank you, Conqueror...I will check this out.<p>selket

sel, I have a somewhat different view of these kinds of issues (secrets), it really doesn't matter what you (the general you, but sel also) feel or think about telling....it is not your secret to keep...the single most aggressive act one human can do to another (short of killing them) is witholding information they know is important. If your H leaves, so what? It is his right as a sovereign human being to self-determination, no one can do that if those they interact with lie to them (and an untold secret is a lie). Maybe he will be devastated instead.... again so what? It is his pain, we are all entitled to our pain, and to deal with it as we see fit....to withold secrets from someone, especially someone we supposedly love makes a total mockery out of who we are, and the love we profess....keeping a secret is about possession, about wanting your H for YOU, for what he does for YOU, it has nothing to do with your loving him, and is the complete opposite of loving him...<p>The other side of the coin is you, the secret enslaves you as well, you will never be able to love anyone, including yourself, if you live in fear of the truth...the truth indeed sets us free, it always does, secrets destroy us, sometimes suddenly, sometimes a little bit at a time...you had a rough way to go in life, no question about it, and deserve understanding and patience....but ultimately none of it makes any difference, the future is unwritten, you can either write it on a foundation of fear, or on a foundation of truth, you will not heal until you you give yourself up to whatever will be will be, your marriage either fails or it doesn't, makes no difference, cause if you try to save it with lies, you don't have it anyways, you have a lie. Tell the truth, accept whatever follows as ok, and follow the path of truth, married or not, you will be ok....cause you will no longer be living in fear.

Sel, PLEASE (yes, I'm shouting here for emphasis only) check your email!!! I'm completely blown away right now and a few tears are flowing. I'll be on-line later. We should talk.<p>Love you!!<p>Elf

Sel,<p> There is no easy answer to your question. I believe you when you say this isn't about you. Which is why I beleive in caution when telling something that has been hidden like this. <p> I know people need to heal, both you and H. I try to put myself in this situation. Wonder if I would want to know. <p> With all the pain I have been through, I honestly don't think I would want to know. Especially if we were in a strong recovery. As you stated, how much can/should one person take. <p> I know the guilt is eating away at you. I know you feel worthless. Perhaps telling is the only way you will be able to love yourself and believe that you ARE worthy of being loved. You are ya know. <p> I would like to point out that your H probably already knows and has forgiven you for it. But the only way to know is to ask/tell. <p> I truely feel terrible for you. <p> Best wishes<p> jd

Sad-n-Lonely........<p>You have opened the door for me that I knew was there all along. You know how I know this.....because your post ticked me off. So you know what I did? I thought about it for a few hours and turned it inside out and back and forth....I basically dissected it.<p>Why? Why did what you said get to me so? Is it because you reitterated the very beliefs I value?<p>HOWEVER....there are a few points where I disagree with you. Please don't take offense (you don't seem like the type who would take offense with disagreement.....and if you aren't offended then maybe we can continue to discuss this [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). Actually, I learn the most from disagreements.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>it is not your secret to keep <hr></blockquote><p>I think your statement is incorrect...actually it is my secret to keep. It is a secret that could destroy the marriage....which is both of ours....but the secret is mine. The actions were mine, the responsibility is mine, the guilt is mine, the shame is mine, I alone can carry the responsibility of what I did. My husband does not own my actions, I do. It is not up to my husband to explain my actions, it is up to me. We could argue semantics about marital union and I would agree that my husband and I are one.....but we are also individuals. <p>Now, do I think my husband deserves to know that truth? Yes I do. I think my husband deserved to know the truth the moment he asked me, but at the time, for whatever reasons I had, I didn't tell him the ENTIRE truth.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> It is his pain, we are all entitled to our pain, and to deal with it as we see fit....to withold secrets from someone, especially someone we supposedly love makes a total mockery out of who we are, and the love we profess<hr></blockquote><p>I agree with you on the above....but...(I'm not usually one for 'buts')....I agree that I did make a total mockery out of myself and a total mockery out of the love I professed to him 6 years ago. Times have changed, I have changed, our relationship has changed since that point. I truly DO love my husband now..I didn't know what the heck love was then. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>....keeping a secret is about possession, about wanting your H for YOU, for what he does for YOU,<hr></blockquote> <p>Here is another point where I disagree and maybe I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. This is not about me holding something over his head or using this as control...AT THAT TIME it was. This is not about me not disclosing information because I want my husband for ME (well, I DO want my husband for me, that is why I married him in the first place, but not in the context in which you are referring)...I am not using my husband for fringe benefits. AND I totally agree with you that INITIALLY witholding that information was completely self-serving. My question is about NOW...this point in time....not then....I know that I was wrong to withold that information then. What I want to know and what I have been mulling over and stressing over and throwing up over is....is it RIGHT for me to tell him at this point in time?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>it has nothing to do with your loving him, and is the complete opposite of loving him...<hr></blockquote><p>Mmmmmmmmm....honestly, s-n-l, I have mixed feeling about this. At the time of confrontation where I deflected and avoided the whole issue....it WAS about me and that is why I didn't tell. I didn't tell for me....out of shame. However, now it seems to be a different case. BECAUSE I love him I want what is best for him. Would I be nurturing HIM by telling him? THAT, I don't know. Would I be putting him before myself by telling him? Yes, because then he would have the pain to do with as he wished. I don't have a problem NOW with facing the shame. I have accepted what I did, even though I hate to believe I would do the things I did.<p>Of course I have a fear that my husband will leave me over this.....and to be totally honest, I don't think he would leave me. He understood (at least he told me he did) just how sick and twisted I was and he understood that AT THAT TIME I was in no way prepared nor mature enough to handle an adult relationship like a marriage.<p>I have pretty much made up my mind on this issue but I would really like your feedback and believe it or not.....had someone else posted my original post, my response to that person would be very much like yours.<p>selket

jd~<p>Yes, I think my husband knows, I think that is why he pushed me so hard on it years ago.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I know the guilt is eating away at you. I know you feel worthless. Perhaps telling is the only way you will be able to love yourself and believe that you ARE worthy of being loved. You are ya know.<hr></blockquote><p>Yes the guilt is eating away at me. I ask myself.....would I want to know? Yes, I believe I would. What I don't know is if my husband would want to know. And, yes I'm sure that telling him would be loving myself because it would alleviate my guilt...I want to make sure that by me telling him it isn't ONLY about me alleviating my guilt. Do I know that I am worthy of being loved? It is something I struggle with and I still haven't reached a conclusion. I'm not feeling sorry for myself, I KNOW I'm worthy.....I just don't know KNOW....you know what I mean?<p>Thank you for your words, jd, it has given me another angle to consider.<p>selket

Holy Cow Selket, I swear you have my story. I can't believe it. You know how we feel so all alone, that no one is as bad as I am. I felt so moved by what you posted, you have expressed everything that I "know" inside my head, I just can't express it.<p>I can just imagine the pain in which you are going thru. I too had such a wall of denial built up, that if I said it didn't happen, then it didn't happen. Didn't matter, if the evidence proved otherwise. I am so blown away.....<p>You know, my husband and I have just completed on full year of total discovery, and prior to that, I had still not told him all. I reasoned with myself that I can handle it, he'll never know, I can live with the guilt, the shame, the pain, that was my way of justifying it.<p>But, every single day, I thought about it. It was almost like an obsession. I could not put it out of mind. It was almost like, either tell the whole truth, or kill myself. That is what it all boiled down to.<p>Then I thought about how far we have come, and how badly I really wanted to stay married to this man. How would it feel, say 4 years down the road, he found out the entire story? I just couldn't take that chance. I prayed, and prayed, and was just at the end of my rope. Finally, I disclosed all and three days later, I went inpatient to a treatment center for sexual compulsitivity. That saved my life. <p>I always felt that if my husband could forgive me, than all would be ok. Well, I have come to find out that he may have forgiven me, but I still have a long way to go before I can forgive me. My feelings matter and there is no way that I can live today without being completley honest about it.<p>My heart goes out to you and your husband. I would love to email you sometime, if that is ok.......<p>let me know what you think..<p>My thoughts are with you..<p>PJ

Sel My Darling Friend:<p>I am blown away by your post. The pain and confusion in it is so evident. I am sitting here trying to know how to help you, help alleviate the pain. I keep asking myself what I would want from my husband in this situation. How far into the future do I want to know about the secrets that he has kept?<p>Actually, I can answer this from experience. At one point, before out marriage DH shared something from his past from me because he didn't want to enter our marriage with a lie over his head. That piece of information almost destroyed me and us along with it mostly because I was extremely immature, and self-absorbed. However, we did survive it and we are both stronger people through it and even though I don't like what it took to get here I like who I am because of it. If I had found out after we were married or from some other way that he had not been completely honest, I really doubt that we could have survived. <p>There will always be a small part of me that thinks that if someone could have guaranteed my husband that I would never find out, I would not have wanted him to tell me. For his sake and mine. <p>I know that this doesn't give you any exact directions on what to do but it is just a little of my thoughts and experience to maybe help you.<p>You will be in my thoughts and prayers

ok, a little more feedback, it is a subject I feel very strongly about, and one that pierces straight to the heart of human bonding....<p>This is a very passionate subject for many, I know that, so plz don't think I am chastising you, I just calls em as I sees em...One of the most persistant, and pernicious human behaviours is the notion one is entitled in any sense to withold information from another.....no matter how you slice it, no matter how you rationalize it (you= general you, not sel specifically), it is an act of aggression, and done for one and one reason only, the benefit of the person holding the secret.....it is an act of aggression cause the secret holder does not want to deal with the reaction of the person they withold the information from.....that is overt manipulation, and is therefore an act of aggression.....let me ask a simple question.<p>If you had absolute knowledge revealing this information to your H would gaurantee a better marriage, would you do so? .....you are a smart woman, judgeing from your feedback, so I leave the exercise of analyzing your response to that question to you, and what it reveals about why secrets are kept.<p>A corollary question is if you knew with absolute certainty your H would leave you if he had this information about you....would you tell?<p>These 2 questions illustrate why it is not your secret to keep, the information belongs to your H, cause it is about his life, and you are manipulating him by keeping it from him....you are trying to control him, and his choices by having superior knowledge of the reality of the marriage and who he is married too.....you have no right to do so...no moral right, no ethical right, none, nada, zip.....another useful thought exercise is to ask yourself whether you are willing to accept deception from a spouse, whether you will allow a spouse to decide what you should and should not know....you cannot make it specific to one instance sel, it is a principle, it either is ok to lie to your spouse, or it is not....you cannot fabricate a stable relationship where truth is optional depending on how you feel...it is an absolute...I also believe it is a psychological truth you cannot be in-love, or oneflesh, or maritally bonded if you are not totally 100% honest....which of course means many marriages are shams, and indeed they are, and they are not particularly nurturing places, I often wonder why people live like that....but that is another issue...and it is mostly about fear.....or apathy, don't know which is worse.<p>The principle is simple sel, self-determination, it is vital to the well-being of each of us as an individual to be in control of our destinies (well, much as we can anyways), and why radical honesty is the foundation of all successful human behaviour...one can make a case for witholding information economically, politically..even socially.. using self-defense as the argument, but it would be a much better world if we had no dishonesty....however, dishonesty absolutely destroys the capacity for marital love, and instead makes it a manipulative arrangement, as each witholds truths about themself for fear of losing the other, you cannot love someone if you are afraid of losing them....why?, cause you will manipulate to assauage the fear.<p>sel..Sad-n-Lonely........You have opened the door for me that I knew was there all along. You know how I know this.....because your post ticked me off. <p>snl...I tend to do that, seems to be my lot in life, causes me no end of trouble though. I am not much on sympathy, IMO when people are in trouble, they deserve only real (sometimes referred to as brutal) honesty, sympathy only keeps em stuck....however one should be civil and sincere, delivery does count....does no good if you irritate someone so much they won't listen, a fine line to tread.<p>sel...So you know what I did? I thought about it for a few hours and turned it inside out and back and forth....I basically dissected it.<p>snl..Good, it is what I hope people always do with any advice/opinions they recieve, it is what I do too.<p>sel..HOWEVER....there are a few points where I disagree with you. <p>snl....Nahhhhh!!!!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>sel...Please don't take offense (you don't seem like the type who would take offense with disagreement.....and if you aren't offended then maybe we can continue to discuss this ). Actually, I learn the most from disagreements.<p>snl...offense? Isn't that what the team with the ball is on?..... don't worry, the word isn't in my vocabulary....I only judge folks on whether they are credible, if they are not, I just don't talk to em [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .....most people are ok, although some can get pretty mouthy, but what the hey, I figure most people mean well even if they are trashing me, I prefer radical honesty, so it is ok when that happens, it tells me things.<p>snl said..it is not your secret to keep <p>sel...I think your statement is incorrect...actually it is my secret to keep. It is a secret that could destroy the marriage....which is both of ours....but the secret is mine. <p>snl...Ok, I take shortcuts in this setting, to conserve...I expected it was obvious you have the ability to keep the secret, that is why we call em secrets, I meant ethical right..and I addressed that above, so won't again. Further, IMO marriages cannot be destroyed, especially not by the truth, truth is not a destroyer, it is a liberator...if a marriage ends (for any reason) then IMO it was suppose to end, or more exactly, never existed at all, was only a sham, wishful thinking, a picture, etc. IMO marriage and radical honesty are synonomous....and I think we all know that actually....even when we deny and violate it. Also the marriage is not yours, or your spouse, no one owns a marriage, it is a thing in itself, and it only exists as long as certain conditions are met, especially honesty (regardless of the piece of paper), but that is another issue.<p>sel...The actions were mine, the responsibility is mine, the guilt is mine, the shame is mine, I alone can carry the responsibility of what I did.<p>snl...No argument here.<p>sel...My husband does not own my actions, I do. It is not up to my husband to explain my actions, it is up to me. We could argue semantics about marital union and I would agree that my husband and I are one.....but we are also individuals.<p>snl...Not sure what any of that meant, seems irrelevant.... the issue is whether your H has all the information he needs to freely choose you, and he does not, by such standards as most of us would recognize....you have done alot, but alot doesn't count, this is black and white stuff, no points for almost honest...you (all of us) are either radically honest, or you are a manipulative liar, there is no middle ground.... there are circumstances that relieve you from radical honesty, but they involve having on the table you are not sure you want the marriage...if and when one makes full committment, you must first make full disclosure.<p>sel...Now, do I think my husband deserves to know that truth? Yes I do. I think my husband deserved to know the truth the moment he asked me, but at the time, for whatever reasons I had, I didn't tell him the ENTIRE truth.<p>snl....Deserve? You aren't even allowed to contemplate in such terms, you have no power, right, or authority to determine what any human being deserves, that is my point...is not about deserve, it is about obligation, you have no right to deny to any human being the information they need to dictate the paths they will take...this is a well known, and well understood doctrine re human behaviour, and we all think very poorly of people who conceal important information from those who would be affected by it...correct? Why do you think you are exempt?...the answer is obvious, and you allready know it, you simply do not want to face the consequences...right? The most insidious argument is not telling someone cause it will hurt them, that is the most heinous of rationalizations, it completely strips someone of their humanity...even if your H were to immediately go jump off a bridge if you told him, you still must tell, his choice to kill himself would be his choice...no one can live someone elses life for them, ever, for any reason, it dehumanizes them, objectifies them, and only murdering them is worse. Obviously though different rules apply with mentally unbalanced people, likewise it is very important how and when one tells, but using it isn't the right time for too long is just another rationalization.<p>snl said...It is his pain, we are all entitled to our pain, and to deal with it as we see fit....to withold secrets from someone, especially someone we supposedly love makes a total mockery out of who we are, and the love we profess<p>sel..I agree with you on the above....but...(I'm not usually one for 'buts')....I agree that I did make a total mockery out of myself and a total mockery out of the love I professed to him 6 years ago. Times have changed, I have changed, our relationship has changed since that point. I truly DO love my husband now..I didn't know what the heck love was then. <p>snl...Fair enough, so tell him....or it is still a mockery, just a gussied up, rationalized one. Hopefully he will understand and the act of being honest will strengthen the bond, if it does not, then you need to know the real truth doncha think?<p>snl said....keeping a secret is about possession, about wanting your H for YOU, for what he does for YOU,<p>sel...Here is another point where I disagree and maybe I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. This is not about me holding something over his head or using this as control...<p>snl...Yes it is. The only reason anyone ever does not tell these kinds of secrets (despite the often creative excuses they give), is cause they are afraid after they tell they won't be married anymore, or loved the same way, and so forth and so on.....so they are trying to control that not happening...right? There are many kinds of control, I understand you are not trying to make him do anything, but in effect you really are, you are trying to make sure he doesn't leave you.<p>sel... This is not about me not disclosing information because I want my husband for ME (well, I DO want my husband for me, that is why I married him in the first place, but not in the context in which you are referring)...I am not using my husband for fringe benefits. AND I totally agree with you that INITIALLY witholding that information was completely self-serving.<p>snl....This is the other big rationalization...if I understand right, you are suggesting you love him so much you just can't tell him the truth, and it is ok, cause you are not that maniupulative, rotten person anymore, and have gotten past all that awful stuff that caused your behaviour...right? Therefore there is no real need to tell, cause now you are "different"....sorry sel, not your decision to make, and maybe you aren't different, in any event, it is his assessment to make not yours for him.....<p>Listen, your childhood was awful, you didn't deserve any of it, I was as horrified as anyone, and you certainly deserve understanding, chances, consideration...but you cannot be the one to give that, whoever you interact with has to decide, and indeed how they handle the whole you, is part of how you fit them, and will make a better bond than hiding things....everything about us will always be there, you cannot escape your past, it is a part of who you are, but you can learn from it (as you seem to be doing), and turn it into making you a better person (that is usually how adversity works).<p>sel...My question is about NOW...this point in time....not then....I know that I was wrong to withold that information then. What I want to know and what I have been mulling over and stressing over and throwing up over is....is it RIGHT for me to tell him at this point in time?<p>snl...Yes, you should have told long ago, but such things get a little murky...but now, when most of it is on the table, when you have faced your demons, when he has faced his, finish the job sel, wipe the slate clean, take the last step, make yourself completely vulnerable, let him choose you, or not, all of you....not telling now sabotages your growth, you remain manipulative, it is your last hurdle...you will still struggle, maybe all your life with some behaviours, but you won't be spending any energy keeping a lie between you, and you need all that energy to love right, and grow right, don't be fear will keep you forever stuck.<p>snl said...it has nothing to do with your loving him, and is the complete opposite of loving him...<p>sel...Mmmmmmmmm....honestly, s-n-l, I have mixed feeling about this. At the time of confrontation where I deflected and avoided the whole issue....it WAS about me and that is why I didn't tell. I didn't tell for me....out of shame. However, now it seems to be a different case. BECAUSE I love him I want what is best for him. Would I be nurturing HIM by telling him? <p>snl...By now you know what I would say, so will only say once again, you are not keeping the secret for him, but for you, let him decide....and the single most nurturing thing you can do for a partner is to be completely honest, trust cannot exist without it...<p>sel...THAT, I don't know. Would I be putting him before myself by telling him? Yes, because then he would have the pain to do with as he wished. I don't have a problem NOW with facing the shame. I have accepted what I did, even though I hate to believe I would do the things I did.<p>snl...It is his pain, you caused it, but it is his pain...you cannot rob him of it, it is his to do with as he will...and you will have to feel that pain too, that is one of the consequences of your past choices....you cannot escape it, tell and let what will be be, or live a lie...either way you pay a price...one is honorable, the other is not.<p>sel...Of course I have a fear that my husband will leave me over this.....and to be totally honest, I don't think he would leave me. He understood (at least he told me he did) just how sick and twisted I was and he understood that AT THAT TIME I was in no way prepared nor mature enough to handle an adult relationship like a marriage.<p>snl...If he stayed through all this, I tend to agree with you...I really don't think this is so much about him leaveing, as you not wanting to deal with him being hurt again...the fact is you hurt him, and you cannot heal by hiding it, you need to forgive yourself, and you need his acceptance, the marriage cannot heal without both of you, you cannot do that by yourself.<p>sel...I have pretty much made up my mind on this issue but I would really like your feedback and believe it or not.....had someone else posted my original post, my response to that person would be very much like yours.<p>snl...well there you are, I could say a lot more about my opinions re the mystery of what love is...but in large measure I think it consists of two things when it works, and our ability to do these two things is a reflection of whether we really love or not.<p>1. Real love requires absolute honesty, it requires two people to stand naked (so to speak) before each other, every single thing about them revealed, and in that blinding truth, find they choose each other....this doesn't happen much, cause people are afraid they won't be chosen...interestingly I think real love compells one to do this, you cannot prevent yourself from doing it...but it only works when both do it, if only one does, it is not love...<p>2. The other is trust, you must be able to believe without reservation your spouse, not only factual stuff, but emotional stuff, psychological stuff as well....again this is very hard to achieve, and it makes you vulnerable, that is the other component, you must not fear losing the marriage, the more you try to hang on to it, the less it is about love...<p>Good luck.

sel...(to jd)..I want to make sure that by me telling him it isn't ONLY about me alleviating my guilt. <p>snl...Again, this is not how it works, there is no decision tree, their is nothing to figure out, you tell cause you have no other options, it is his stuff not yours...it may be helpful for you to look at yourself in this regard, introspection is always good, but your motives for telling or not telling are totally irrelevant, cause is not about YOU.....if it helps alleiviate your guilt, terrific, and it should seems to me, that's ok sel, but by realizing this is a matter of principle, you remove your motivations from the mix...you do it just cause it is the right thing to do...ya know?....otherwise you can rationalize yourself in too whatever choice you want....and that gets you nowhere.... I know this is hard, and some would argue vehemently with me over the notion they have an obligation to protect someone...but they cannot sustain any argument for one simple reason...I just ask them whether they will accept anyone making decisions for them....I have yet to find anyone who says yes...why? Cause we are no longer human when we let someone else decide for us, we become property, or a child.<p>If you want, tell your H you have not told him everything, but are reluctant to do so, cause is more of the same, and don't want to hurt him, or disrupt recovery, ask him if he wants to trust you in this, and let it go...with the understanding he can ask anytime he wants, for the rest of your life, and you will tell...that lets him decide what he can deal with...you can even write it all out, seal it in an envelope, give it to him, and leave it up to him.... either of these discharges your moral obligations IMO.