Hi Selket,<p>Thanks for the response, and you are so right, I guessed compulsive when I was reading where you going.<p>I want to share some more thoughts with you, but I am so tired. Just started a new job after being off for 2 months, and I am exhausted!<p>Quick note though...While the MB principals may look good on paper, sometimes that approach doesn't work in all cases, which is my case. I don't think the BS can Plan A all the way with a sex and love addict. The SLA will walk all over that. You know what I mean? My husband basically followed the tough love approach. He basically said, this is the way its gonna be, or there's the door. It wasn't hard to make my decision. I had been abandoned my whole life, either by others, or I have set up relationships to fail.<p>Anyway, you really sound like you know a lot of good stuff, and I really admire that. And, like you said, you will do what is right for you, and whatever that may be, will be. <p>Take Care<p>PJ

paruil, I thought I had covered all the various wiggle options, seems I left one out, you mentioned it in your post, a third party, a child...let me address that general concept..<p>Again, there are NO exceptions, the effect on the child is irrelevant too, this is a principle, and the principle is whether you dehumanize another human being for ANY reason...it makes no difference how the outcome affects the child, life is rough, that is why it starts with infant mortality rates, and goes on from there...the injury to the child occured when the matter the secret is about occurs, you only compound the injury by adding secrecy to it, you cannot protect someone by hurting someone else...you cannot protect the child, by robbing the father of his humanity...the injury to the child is regretable, but cannot be avoided, one will just incur obligations to the child to mitigate the injury, that is a seperate issue...the notion that all family decisions must be made solely in the perceived best interest of the child is a false (and ultimately more harmful) mindset....being injured is part of being human, children cannot be exempted...the good news is humans are resilitent and adapatable, it is very difficult to do permanent harm to a child as long as you love them, and are attentive to their needs....<p>That is the way principles work, or we have none, and everyone just does whatever they want, and wraps their brain around whatever rationalization meets their needs.... on the other hand, that is why we must be very careful with identifying principles, cause they leave no room for choice... and open the doors to such things as religious fanaticism, and suicide bombers...but in this case, witholding infomation from an individual we are left with no choice at all, this is the boundary line between defining what it means to be human (self-determination), or just manipulating each other....<p>Let me ask everyone another question....What do you say if your spouse asks you if you have ever lied to them (as in lies you have not revealed yet)? Suppose they add they need to know this cause they feel they don't want to be married to you if you have lied....

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What do you say if your spouse asks you if you have ever lied to them (as in lies you have not revealed yet)? Suppose they add they need to know this cause they feel they don't want to be married to you if you have lied....<hr></blockquote><p>Yes.....I would tell him. Because if he wanted to divorced me because I lied to him for something I did years ago........I would think there is something going on with him. You don't just up and all of a sudden start thinking about something like this after 7 years of rebuilding. IOW's.....why think about it now? Why come to me with it NOW out of the blue? Surely if it was something he didn't believe back then, he's thought about it plenty of times in the last 6 or so years of rebuilding. I KNOW he probably has thought about it and he has either a)made the decision to believe me when I told him nothing happened THAT weekend....or b)knows I wasn't telling the "whole" truth and has decided to forgive me for it. For him to NOW loop back and use it as an axis for the future of our marriage seems.....a bit hokie to me. <p>selket

Paruil~<p>I hear you loud and clear. Thank you for your post and I am thrilled to see you here! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>sel

P.S. SNL~<p>The answer to your question is neither here nor there...REALLY. Because IF I (or anyone) made the decision to lie (withold a secret), then certainly I (or anyone) would do it at all costs and EVEN MORESO when a marriage stands to be lost over that lie.<p>Then that brings us back to the point of compiling more lies to cover the secret, which I am not willing to do.<p>selket<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

sel...The answer to your question is neither here nor there...REALLY. Because IF I (or anyone) made the decision to lie (withold a secret), then certainly I (or anyone) would do it at all costs and EVEN MORESO when a marriage stands to be lost over that lie.<p>Then that brings us back to the point of compiling more lies to cover the secret, which I am not willing to do.<p>snl...The question was to illustrate a point to those who still have any conscience left, and simply need guidance in making the right choice...as you correctly point out, those who do not have a conscience, will continue to do as they plz to manipulate those around them...of course it is impossible for them to love anyone, and I feel sorry for the duped spouses of such people (and I suspect there are many)... the issue is always the same, do you love, do you do it right, and reap the rewards granted to a foundation of honesty...or do you seek ownership over another cause of what YOU want, and live a lie, never reaching the safe nurturing place of in-love..cause you sold out.<p>In a larger sense sel, for other reasons too, I think very few marriages are really about love, they are about possession, ownership of anothers emotional resources for your benefit, I think most people want to be married for what it gets them, then for what they give...and love cannot exist that way....nor can it exist if only one is there to nurture the other, both have to be completely vulnerable, and compelled to nurture the other whether they get anything or not...when only one has this capacity it becomes a dependentcy, if neither does it becomes a possession battle, or a contract, and further I don't think you can decide or choose this, it arises out of the psychological capacity and psychological interaction of the two individuals...<p>back to telling secrets, ultimately it boils down to a specific psychological trait, the capacity to take risk....if you are not a risk taker, you will not tell, you won't even be able to make yourself tell, anymore than you can make yourself fly....if you are a risk taker, recognizing such is what makes one truly free, you will tell, cause not to tell will kill you, and you know it.... Personally I think these capacities are determined almost totally genetically, and that is why we have two kinds of arguments.....one a matter of principle, which appeals to you, and me, and folks like us....and the other argument, a practical one, about risk/reward, what if someone finds out later, or from someone else, what if an std crops up, etc. etc. that appeals to others who value results, and will use rationalization to reach internal harmony....cause we are messy humans we don't always know our real natures, and dither around, and act reactively...but once the cards are on the table, we know what we are going to do....I knew when you wrote the first post you would tell, it was between your words, and you were focused on the right questions.<p>It is interesting following the various arguments over principles (of various kinds, as well as the nature of human bonding and how we apply the lable love) here on MB, you can tell fairly quickly who is motivated by results, and who is motivated by principle, I think this has much to do with the emerging data we have from the psychologists about human temperment...<p>btw, I am not saying one is right or wrong, in fact right and wrong have little to do with anything except as place holders for what is healthy or not....we cannot escape the consequences of "wrong" choices, because they are unhealthy and diminish our capacity to survive....which in the end is the real arbiter of right and wrong.<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Sel, just want you know I'm still here with hugs and prayers!<p>This is beginning to feel like home and these people are making me think too much! (referring to old discussions with Jake, Pauril, Pepper, you, etc.)<p>I know you will make the right decision for you.
Hugs, JJ

Paruil~<p>Question about something......<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> If you choose not to understand, that choice to is understandable from the point of view that there is a statue of limitations to all of this. Just make sure that you do not stay silent because of fear, avoidance or manipulation.
<hr></blockquote><p>Before I rush into anything I want your feedback (and anyone else') on this....<p>Let's say I decided to not tell (for whatever reasons)......how would me staying silent NOT be out of fear, avoidance or manipulation? There are many things I fear about finally revealing this....I fear hurting my husband, I fear the end of our relationship and the potential of that relationship, I fear the dissolution of our family, I fear the impact all of this will have on my daughter, I fear being looked at <once again> with utter disgust and scorn. I do fear many things....some having to do with others (husband, daughter) and some having to do with me. I think the avoidance would go hand in hand with that fear. Manipulation? Wouldn't that be derived out of the fear and the avoidance derived out of the manipulation?<p>Can you provide me with an explanation or examples where not telling would not come from fear, avoidance and manipulation?<p>And what about the statute of limitations? <p>Thanks,<p>sel<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

First, [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] (embarrassed!) let me clean up that paragraph a bit!<p>What I wrote was:<p>"If you choose not to understand, that choice to is understandable from the point of view that there is a statue of limitations to all of this. Just make sure that you do not stay silent because of fear, avoidance or manipulation."<p>What I meant to write was:<p>"If you choose not to tell, that choice to is understandable from the point of view that there may be some sort of statue of limitations to all of this. Just make sure that you do not stay silent because of fear, avoidance or manipulation."<p>I must have zipped right over that paragraph when I was rereading and editing my thoughts. Sorry for that and for any confusion.<p>Selket, I may write more later, but honestly, as much as this may piss you off, I'd rather you think on it and see if you can come up with your own example or examples, than have me add any more input.<p>I'm sorry for your turmoil. But I admire your struggle and your inner-wrestling.<p>Take your time with this, delay gratification, even though it sucks doing so!<p>Strength & Courage, Selket (sorry for ripping you off, DOF/DWW [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>Paruil<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Paruil ]</p>

Par~<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> as much as this may piss you off, I'd rather you think on it and see if you can come up with your own example or examples <hr></blockquote>
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[img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Aaaaaw, Mom, do I have to??? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
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Okay, I tried thinking of examples before I posted my question and I couldn't come up with anything so that's why I asked the question. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm going now....to think more on it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>sel<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

Selk, <p>Sorry about the momminess in my last post [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Look into your fears as much as you can - Why are you afraid to lose your husband? What will that mean or do to you? What about the aftermath of telling him are you afraid of? And so on. Keep digging and posting and asking questions.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Paruil<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Paruil ]</p>

selket,<p>I know you didn't ask for this but may I offer a slightly different tactic for addressing this.<p>First, let's pretend that you have decided to tell your H. My question or challenge is how best to address this.<p>Now, if it were me, I guess I would like to determine if he even wants to go "back there any longer". If he doesn't then, one needs to consider how to bring it up in light of the current situation. Then, you need to simply deal with it on your own.<p>My guess is that I will be curious, but not so sure where this is going. In this case, you need to tread lightly.<p>My feeling here is that you would tell him you are having some deep personal problems. They are not about him or anything he has done, but they do and will affect him. They won't be pleasant for him, but he needs to understand that they are caused because you do love him and have been continuing to grow and change. This growth and change as percipated somethings from your past that are really bothering you.<p>The question is: Does he want to go back into the muck of the past or not. If not, you will deal with it, if so you need to talk with him.<p>IF on the other hand he is more affirmative that he would like to settle a few things in his mind as well, then tell him the same thing, but make sure he understands it is about you dealing with your guilt still after all of this time. You don't want to bring up past hurts, but your growth is causing you to hurt and feel more guilt.<p>I think that one thing should be clear. You love him deeply and that this is not about him, but you cleaning out the attic so to speak and needing to deal with some things. You will do so with him or without him. In either case you love him and will continue.<p>If you decide not to tell then this need for strategy is not present, but my suspicion is you do NEED to tell him to clear out the last vestiges of what happened 6 years ago.<p>You might even ask about his "blanet" forgiveness. If he knows you love him.<p>selket, there is no doubt that this will bother him, but it may be less than you think. Because he has forgiven you for the many things that happened during that time period.<p>I do think that if you do tell, you need to approach it as you having a problem and needing his help in dealing with it. I think that your focusing on this now is a clear sign of your continued growth and maturity.<p>I apologize for jumping in with a "solution" sort of a guy thing. But, maybe something I have said will help your thinking. It just seemed to me you cannot decide unless you have a plan upon which to make your decision. Not telling is a plan, and deciding to tell is not a plan. Deciding how to tell is a plan. So if you can decide how you would like to approach him, it seems to me it makes your choices more concrete and perhaps clearer.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

well sel, we have been focused on the whys of telling, but as far as the hows of telling jl's stuff sounds pretty good.

Oh, BLESS YOU, JustLearning!!!!!!!!!! <p>You don't know how much your post has helped me. You don't know....you don't know.......you just don't know!!!!!!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>There is no doubt in my mind that it is critical I deal with this issue.<p>You have addressed something that has plagued me and I've batted this back and forth through email with some of my very good buddies.....and this "something" goes back to the questions that I asked on an earlier post.......<p>Does he need to know? (not so much as do I need him to know).....and how will I know if he needs to know if I don't ask him? And, how do I possibly go about asking him without specifically telling him?<p>Your post has gone a long way into helping me answer these questions. <p>This is where I stand right now. My husband forgave me. For what? I'm not sure!!! I would love to appease myself by walking through the rest of my life BELIEVING that he forgave me EVERYTHING. I have forgiven myself THE AFFAIR and I have forgiven myself my actions during the time of me acting out. What I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around (here you go, Pepperoni, I'm getting to the LCD [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) is that <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't know exactly what he was, in his mind,forgiving me for.<hr></blockquote><p>
I revealed to him numerous times how hienous I view my actions to be and I have alluded to the fact (actually outright said) that I did some "terrible terrible things". All this before my husband forgave me. So, what I'm wondering is exactly what he was forgiving me for. Did he take into consideration that I did do things he doesn't know about and he understood this when he forgave me?<p>Because........<p>If he gave me "blanket forgiveness" then I feel all is good. He forgave me.....he forgave me the whole enchilada not needing to know every incident for his own recovery. (BTW- it took him about 4 years to forgive me)<p>If he gave me "specific forgiveness" then all is NOT good. Herein is where the dishonesty would lie. He forgave me a taco and a coke when he thought he was forgiving the whole enchilada. <p>So, I need to open a door for him one way or the other and find out if he ordered an enchilada or if he ordered a taco and a coke. I can do what needs to be done. If he forgave all, then I can let this go...and will let this go. If he did not forgive all...then I need to deal with that as well.<p>I've already made the decision that I am going to take action.....but do what?????? You helped me ALOT by giving me somewhat of a formula to work with. You DID NOT intrude...I always welcome any advice. Thank you. <p>selket<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

Sel, I await with great anticipation the answers you come up with. Although I know that each of us has to do our own self-reflection and struggle in order to deal with our individual situations...your situation is one I will soon have to deal with in some way as well. My husband knows I had an emotional affair with his cousin...it hurt him very much and we talked about all of that after I moved out...but that was BEFORE it became physical for a while. Thing is...I know my H and he will never again bring it up. He will avoid that time like it never happend and figure it all to be in the past...forgiven and forgotten. He actually has guilt for dating before we were divorced...I've done a LARGE amount of reassuring him that there is no reason for him to feel guilty (although to tell you the truth I think his guilt is more aimed at the girl he dated...for hurting her or leading her to believe they would enter into a relationship once he was divorced). Anyway, I know it would deeply wound my husband if he were to know how far it went...and honestly I truly believe that given the choice he would choose to leave it unknown...but then there are 4 pages of reasons not to in this post.<p>My question to the informed masses here.... When is the right time?<p>The reason I ask is because Sel and her hubby are 6 years past this...they are years into rebuilding and in a newly strengthened relationship. H and I are only just 3 months past almost divorcing...we are still basically honeymooning. We have so much work to do to have all this really behind us and form the newer stronger foundation. At this time would the truth do more damage then good? Or is that unfair...to allow the rebuilding of a marriage based on an unspoken lie? I am not the woman who married him...and during the last 2 years I most certainly was not his wife...and he knows that. And I hope he knows I am more committed to him and our marriage than ever...<p>Anyway...rambling now. Good luck Sel and thanks for bringing this to light. I still have to finish reading all the posts and give it some good thinking time.

For what it's worth Sel ....<p>Last week Mr. Pepper revealed something to me. (It sort of came up in the context of our conversation) The last person he dated before he and I got engaged .... was a married woman! I did not know that. It provoked a moment or two of conflict within me. BUT, he was a different man back then.... that's the truth! He is a sober 12-step WONDERFUL man now. I see him for what he has become, not what he was.<p>Love,<p>Pepper

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Paruil:
<strong>Strength & Courage, Selket (sorry for ripping you off, DOF/DWW [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm delighted, Paruil, anytime. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] It's great to see that you've joined the rest of the riff-raff! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I'm thinking it would probably be wise to mention this..........<p>I think my husband may be having an affair......either he's having an affair or he is in one of those "distancing phases" right before one.<p>There has been a shift in our relationship since the move. A HUGE shift.<p>Each time I try to talk to him, he seems to distance even more. So, I've quit bringing it up.<p>The sex is different.......last night I felt like a mannequin. Have any of you ever seen the movie The Devil's Advocate? There is a part where Keanu Reeves is having sex with his wife......the screen jumps to his thoughts during the experience and while he's looking down (at his wife) he's seeing a different woman. During the espisode his wife makes him stop and says something like, "Who were you just with because it sure wasn't me you're having sex with"......that's what I felt like last night and it isn't the only time I've sensed something like this.<p>I don't even know how to go about investigating this. He works with his mother and step-father (marriage borne out of adultery) and his mother has made it clear to me that his happiness is the most important thing (the means of that happiness be damned) so I don't know how I would even go about "snooping" at his workplace. His mother would cover for him if she knew he was messing around....I know this because of a situation while we were dating......and I know her.<p>I handle the money and the only way he could be sneaking money is to not deposit the full amount of his check in the bank. I randomly check his deposit slips with his check stub and I've not yet found a discrepency.<p>So, here is another quandry to add to the one I already face.<p>I've thought about mentioning counseling but I know he would poo-poo the idea....and once again I would be the one who looks like I'm never satisfied. Like I just can't be pleased. Like I'm always the one with the problem.......which if he is having an affair or setting his sights on one....this would be another justification.<p>selket<p>P.S. PlainJane....sorry I didn't answer your question before.......I would be delighted for you to email me. selket28@ivillage.com<p>[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

well, just an observation (and btw, investigation/surveillance has lots of options, sure some will mention them)....I am interested in the undercurrents of life, and the big questions, why are we here etc, etc,....it occurs to me, that your telling the truth (as a principle, not as a decision) could be integrally tied up in the "big" picture...if he has wandered, and if it is cause your marriage is not bonded (and it never will be untill all secrets are revealed), then the revelation places the ball in his court to reveal any secrets he has...a sort of psuchological pressure...of course all this ultimately depends on the character of two people, and no ones character is perfect either, so that is a factor also....but the interesting thing is sel, you are now in control of the marital dynamics for you two, by controlling the disposition of your secret....personally I find the timing very curious, your deciding to tell, and his possibly having an ea, or at least wondering in some fashion about the marriage....you will also find out things about your H by virtue of how he deals with your revelation...I have said little (and usually don't) about spouse who profess all this incredible love yada yada yada, mostly I don't believe it, it is a sort of denial...I do not think love can exist in dysfunctional relationships, nor do I think you can love anyone if you are messed up (beyond a certain "normal" range)..... but I do think people desperately try to cling to another and call it love, cause they are "trying" so hard....<p>I have found people get very annoyed with me, when I observe the love they profess is not really love, and we have debated the issue of what is love alot here, I only say this to you cause you seem to have an open mind, and value all opinions.... If your H loves you as he says, he will not be in an affair, it's that simple, I hope he is not, but if he is, you have a lot more internal growth to do sel, and I hope you don't run away from it..... you have had such a rough way to go, and it would be so gratifying to see you overcome it, completely, not by trading one set of constraints for another.<p>I really believe the statement the truth sets you free, it always does, in many ways, some not so obvious (and the truth can often be very very hard to reveal).... Good luck<p>[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Hey Sel and everyone else,<p>It's me, simply being myself. No time to speak now. See ya over the weekend.