I have been coming to this board for three days and I find myself more confused than ever. Long story short, is that I have had a kind of EA with a woman. I have attempted to distance myself and am working on getting over the ache of the heart. I met the woman for this project on Monday and had a strange vibe from her. <p>That afternoon she called me for lunch and I went -- a great lunch, she called me that night and I called her back and then she paged me when I was at the airport and again when I am out of town, tonight.<p>I find myself less connected with the heart -- it does not ache like it used to. But now I wonder if it is possible to be just really good friends with her.<p>My wife knows I talk to this woman. Her husband knows she talks with. Neither of them, know about the lunches, and some of the private calls.<p>Am I being stupid? I read about the toll the affair takes on people, but it seems like I am not having one. Or am I? Please be honest with me.<p>I have kissed her twice, held hands, told her I love her. She has told me she loves me, but not as frequently. Does not tell me to stop when I hold hands, etc, but she is not the agressor.<p>If we keep the relationship exactly where it is, is that wrong?<p>I really do need advice. Thanks

You're kidding, right?<p>Of course it is an affair, and you have to stop it RIGHT NOW.<p>Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

You say it doesn't feel like an affair, that your wife knows you talk to her. Do you think your wife would approve of you telling this OW that you love her or that you kiss her?? I don't think so. It's an affair, it may not be a full blown sexual affair, but it is an affair nonetheless. Are you willing to end your marriage for this OW? Because unless you stop, that's where it could end. For the sake of your wife, please stop.

I don't see how this is truly an affair. I only see this woman, maybe once a week. I talk with her when she is driving home. She knows how I feel about her.<p>But it seems like it is never going to progress any further than it is now. Kind of just very good friends.<p>I think that is the case, but am I being stupid? And if no one finds out, what is the harm?

Ok,
Ill take a stab at it since my H affair began the same way. Whats the harm in it? Well, you are lying to your wife.. lies of ommission maybe , but lies just the same. Do you know what happens when you lie to someone ? You get further apart, you stop talking so you wont get cought in a lie, you distance yourself and look for reasons that she desearves to be lied to, you begin to justify why you desearve to have a good friend like OW. Your wife will sense it. And she will respond.. maybe she will get suspicioius, or if she has low self esteem she will begin to doubt herself and feel wothless.<p>On the other hand, you put energy into your relationship with OW, talk to her, tell her all your feelings, tell her all your marriage problems. You tell her you love her, you want to spend time with her, all relationship progress, and yours will progress to pain for all involved. <p>You cant keep things as they are. Your wife or her H will find out and tell the other spouse. Or you will step over the line to sex and make things even more painful. Its already too late to stop the affair, you are having one. If you doubt it, tell your wife all about your kisses and see if she thinks its an affair or not. Good friends that kiss and tell each other they love each other? Right, next it will be good friends that have sex.<p>Unfortunatly, I have never seen someone stop at this point. Our words are not strong enough to penetrate your justifications that its all just innocent fun. It seems affairs usually are destined to run thier course and bring pain to all 4 of you. We will still be here when yours ends and you are looking for ways to mend your wifes heart.<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Lora ]</p>

Lora:
Your reply is very good, but I have a couple answers and questions for you.
1. You are right in that I could not tell my wife. I dont think I am distancing myself from her. I used to think about this OW all the time, but I am better about it now.<p>2. I don't see this ever progressing to anything physical. First, the woman works all the time and would have no time to meet for a physical affair. She guards her heart very closely and I think she would not allow herself to slip into something bad.
I dont want a sexual affair. I have told her how I feel. She has told me that she is glad I am in her life. I am very passionate with my heart and feelings.<p>But she can tell me she loves me -- not all the time -- and then is much more unpassionated. So I think she defintely controls this thing and it is clear that she is not going to allow it to go further.<p>As for me, I am trying to work it so my heart is not so involved with her. I like her. Like her as a good friend. But she is extremely busy, which limits chances to talk or be with her anyway. So that seems to be a safety net, too.

mmseekingadvice - 5 words for you - you are in the fog.<p>You are in the fog so deeply, it is scary.

A fog? Really? I am trying to think straight. Honestly

MM,
So you are depending on her work schedual to keep you from crossing that line? You are already seeing her as a good woman who will be able to maintain boundrys, and defending her to stangers. I see her very different, as a woman who is married, but kisses, accepets advances from a MM. She has already slipped into an inappropriate friendsip. And the hot /cold secretiveness limited time just seems to make things more intense.<p>Give your passionate nature to your wife, try and do the things for her you are doing with OW, call her, think of her through the day, set up special meetings and watch your marriage improve. How would you feel if you found out yur wife was acting as your other woman is. Would you be proud of her for only kissing another man,instead of sleeping with him? Would you say OK honey, kiss him, tell him you love him, thats OK with me?

The posts make sense. But I have some additional questions. Marriage builders talks about the idea of Love Units. I sense that I may have given this woman some, but she so carefully guards her heart that I don't think there are enough to make her fall in love with me.<p>As an example: I told her how much I loved her, etc. And she said she didnt need to hear it all the time. That seems pretty cold to me. She did give me a valanetine card. I gave her a cara dn she said she liked it, but nothing along the lines of: That is so sweet, thank you, you really are important to me.<p>She is like the "man' guarded with her heart. So the notion of Love Units does not seem to apply. She works in a male dominated field and is very good, gets a ton of strokes from people she works with and the people she helps.<p>I may be counting on her to not go further, but I dont want anything sexual either. Honestly. She is unlike otehr woman in that her passion, if it is there, is hidden.<p>I do know that her husband has not always been nice to her. They are suburban, high-income couple, seemingly perfect. Her father abused her mother and she saw it. So maybe she doesnt trust men<p>I am different then men she works around. Not all logic, I am much more heart on sleeve, etc.<p>I dont see her falling for me. So I dont see the playing with fire here.

You need to end this "freindship" right away to save your M, please be careful, and back off... tell this woman yyou feel it has gone to far and you value your wife too much to continue the friendship... please read everything you can on this site... and back off from the ow,, it is bad bad news... I am sure you realize you need to work on your marriage... pelase do that... and focus on your wife.. not someone who has caught your attention at the office.<p>H

I dont see the woman at the office. She works for another company. I only see her because of a project I am working on. Not a daily thing, other than talking with her -- she pages me when she is on the way home and I call her

You didnt answer my question. Is it OK if your wife finds a good friend to kiss and love?<p>I think you see this woman as a challenge. How can you say she gaurds her heart? She is letting a MM kiss her , tells you she loves you, talks to you. She called you for lunch after one day? How long before you kissed and confessed love? a week? What more do you want to see before you beleive that that this will progress one step at a time? You are on a slippery slope and she is not going to be the one to stop you.

I met this woman last August when I had to do a project. We met only for business, but I found myself attracted to her -- not sexually, but emotinoally. I ended up telling her. Wrote letter, left private messages, totally into her.<p>I was very open with my feelings and heart, and she was not. Eventually I reached out to hold her hand. Held her in my arms, stroked her hair. I have kissed her just twice. This all took place over the last six months.<p>This is not some hurried up thing going on. I really do believe that her job -- a job in which she must guard her heart -- has made her different than most women. She simply does not love. I am the one who was totally in love/infatuated with her. I am better now, and believe that becasue of her attitude and me being better, that we can be just good friends.

You can never be just friends with this woman....it will destroy your marriage.<p>You can justify it all you like, you can say that it doesn't FEEL like an affair, you can say she feels nothing for you...........<p>BUT<p>If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a DUCK.<p>You ARE having an emotional affair with this woman because you love her, and she is, if not madly in love with you, letting you hold her, kiss her, etc<p>Well if that ain't an affair, I think I will just eat my hat. May as well just tell my H he can have his OW and come right back and have me too. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You say you haven't distanced yourself from your wife, but tell me where is the commitment to your marriage when you see this woman? You have lied to your wife by omission, and you are keeping up an illicit relationship, though you don't PHYSICALLY see OW more than once a week, you talk every day, huh? What is said in those chats?<p>You want help, but every time we answer you, you refute our replies with more questions, and justifications. Take it from the good people here who are telling you that this IS an affair, and you HAVE to end it, or it WILL surely end your marriage.<p>It can't happen to you? If you continue this, just watch.

Just to give you some perspective from your wife's point of view. I feel I can do this because my H sounds very similar to you.<p>He worked with his OW. It was out of town, so I encouraged him to be friends with her since he didn't know anyone there and was away all week. We both felt it was "safe" because she was, supposedly, a lesbian. (can you see the similarities to your friendship with this woman? ie: it's safe because of her job?)<p>Long story short, they became great friends. He confided in her, turned to her when he had problems, stopped talking to me and grew distant. I began to sense something was going on. But kept telling myself to trust my H and that she was gay, so what was the problem. But something kept nagging away in the back of my head that this wasn't right. <p>I expressed my concerns to him. He assured me nothing was going on (lies) and that they were "just friends" and his friendship with her was very important to him. Said he wasn't even remotely attracted to her. Eventually, he told me and himself that he would "chill out" his friendship with her and focus on us. He even expressed this to his friends saying that he was no longer going to be talking to this woman. That didn't last long.<p>Nearly a year later, it all came out. He fell in love with her. Had been lying to me about the amount of time he was spending with her because he knew I would be upset. He was leaving me. He didn't love me anymore. Basically, he put her up on a pedastal and re-wrote our history together.<p>The pain and devastation I went through was unlike anything I had ever felt before. I sat on the sofa and cried for a month. I cut my arms (something I'd never done before and still can't believe I did). I lost weight, couldn't eat, couldn't sleep.<p>Do you want your wife to go through this? Can you imagine how your wife would feel if she knew you have kissed this woman and told her you love her? Trust me, it won't be pretty. <p>You sound like you're trying to justify your feelings and actions. I'm sorry, but that won't fly here. You think it's "safe" because of her job. You think you're going to handle this fine because this woman won't commit for whatever reason. But you're wrong. There is *nothing* safe in this. Trust me, and everyone else here, you ARE in a fog. You are treading on dangerous ground and yes, you ARE having an affair.<p>I do, sincerely, hope that didn't sound harsh. But you came here seeking advice and advice you will get. We all know, firsthand, the pain involved in this type of situation. Keep reading the stories and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's ugly. It's disrespectful. And it's going to get worse. <p>I hope you continue to post here and get the perspective and advice of all the good people on this board. We are here for you and will help you in any way we can. <p>Love,
VE

I do appreciate the replies. This woman works at least 13 hours a day, and it would simply be impossible for her to ever get away to have an affair.<p>when we talk, it is me who talks about feelings although she will respond to them after time. If I quit talking about them, it seems tht it will go back to being just friends, right?<p>Or has she now got some emotional involvement with me that will not allow that? She seems to be distant enough emotionally to allow it to not go further, and just be a friendship if I back away. Right?

mmseekingadvice, Hi. I am glad you are here, thats the first step. Understand that you are hearing lots of stuff from us BS, probablly not what you wanted to hear. <p>It seems like you are here to find answers, so are we. We have been on the reciving end of the cruelty of our WS not trying to amend things, but rather putting thier needs before the needs of the families that they took an oath to.<p>Not everyone has the same values or can see things from a BS or even a WS point of view, but you really have to ask yourself about telling this OW that you love her? come on, first you know your wife would be heartbroken if she found out about it. Second if you think for a second that what you doing is ok, please read some of the Pregnacy posts, they about rip my heart out.<p>If after you have read any of those posts and you still feel that what you are doing is ok, then I can only suggest that read Surviving an Affair, the true story of 2 seperate couples, one of them exactly like your story.<p>I hope you are not offened, we are just trying to show you our pain, and help you avoid the agony that comes with infidilty.<p>Please keep posting, we are not making disrespectful judgements against you, nor are we trying to critisize you, just want you to be able to avoid this unnecassary event.<p>Take care

Hi again,<p>As Dr. Phil says..."You either get it. Or you don't". I hope that with a lot of reading, understanding and respect for your wife's feelings, you will soon "get it".<p>Your decision about this connection you have with the OW should not be based on how many hours she works, how emotionally uninvolved she is with you or generally anything having to do with her at all. Your decision should be based on the love and respect you have for yourself, as well as your wife and your marriage. (I hate using "shoulds" on people, but I think I can make an exception here!)<p>You have an emotional attachment to this woman that is very dangerous to the state of your marriage. If you have come here to find a way to heal your marriage, then you are in the right place and will find the tools to do so. If you have come here to find a way to remain friends with this woman without your own emotional attachment, it simply won't happen. If you have come here to convince yourself you're not having an affair and seeking validation from a message board full of BSs (and a lot of WSs too!) you won't get it. Everyone will probably tell you the same thing. <p>I may be wrong, but all I'm reading from you is that you're trying to psychoanalyse the OW. "If I back off...she'll do XYZ". No. This is down to you. Period. YOU make the decision. YOU take the action. YOU decide what you want. If you want your marriage, then read everything you can on this site, learn it, know it and live it. <p>If you can, find some stories from WS, such as yourself, who freely admit they did everything they could think of to justify their actions and their affairs. It may shine some light on your situation and you may even wake up a bit. <p>I do wish you all the best. And again, I hope this didn't sound too harsh. We are all here to help each other in whatever way we can. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
But at the end of the day, mate, you ARE playing with fire and you ARE having an affair. <p>Hugs to you,
VE<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: venusenvy ]</p>

OK let me take a stab at this. But please, please, please, don't get offended. I'm just trying to let you see things from a BS point of view. Again, please, don't anyone take offense this is just how my life was shattered and I can really see where this is going. OK here goes:
I'm your wife OK..... I've met a 'friend' I like him [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] he's real sweet to me. As a matter of fact, he called me up very shortly after I met him and really really made me feel important [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] He really left my head spinning. I can't stop thinking about him. I think I want to become really good friends with him? OK Honey? Well..... maybe I won't ask you that just yet. I think I want to meet with him, BUT its ok because it will only be maybe once a week and only for lunch and only to talk about business, ya know, I'm on a project with him.
Ya know, I think it would be nice to hold his hand while we talk I don't think you'd mind would you? I mean, its innocent enough its not like we're having sex or anything right? Oh, maybe I won't ask that of you right now. Oh boy, his mouth looks so inviting, I think I want to kiss him..... OK honey? Well, I don't think I'm going to ask you that either I think I'll just do it. But only a couple of times. Because ya know what.... I think I love him, as a matter of fact I told him that already and you know what, he said the same thing back to me. Not as much as I have and not with as much feeling, but that's ok because he still told me he loved me. And ya know, I don't think his wife would really mind. Do you, because its not like we're having sex or anything. Right? Probably shouldn't mention that to you either.......
Oh he makes me feel soooo important! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] BUT, we're just friends honey, honest. Ya know something else dear, I think about him all the time and quite a bit I might add. More than I think about you [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Sorry honey, but like I said, I love him, but don't worry, its not going to go anywhere, its not like we're having sex and anyway, because he works so much all the time he just doesn't have the time for it. But sex doesn't matter much anyway, I just LOVE him. I'm sure that's ok with you though right, I mean you won't mind if I have loving thoughts daily about ANOTHER man besides you, and want to kiss him, and want to hold his hand, embrace him and run my fingers thru his hair. Its not going to go anywhere I promise. I just LOVE him. That's all. OH but don't worry honey, I love you too. He just dominates my thoughts more than you do. But that's ok because I'm married to you, I have you here with me all the time and can have you and see you whenever I want. Maybe that's what makes this so alluring to me and why I think about him so much, because I can only see him once a week, and like I said, "he makes me feel so important" [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] Oh, maybe I shouldn't mention any of this to you. I don't think you'd understand like he does.<p>OK again, I hope I didn't offend you or anyone else,but I'm trying to make you see how us as BS see this. You say you don't think that she has time to have sex with you but let me ask you this, how about one day she decides that she DOES have the time and wants to.... Are you going to tell her NO or are you going to go with your LOVING thoughts of her and say OH WELL, I do LOVE her and I'll only do it this once, ONLY ONCE and what my wife doesn't know won't hurt her? The reason I ask is because this is what the FOG does to you. You don't think clearly. What's wrong seems right. That's just the way it is and its so hurtful and destructive and you have no idea what you are getting yourself into here. Go back to the beginning of my post and actually picture your wife saying and doing all that I said.... and think about how that would make you feel. If it makes you feel angry, betrayed, hurt, abandoned, or replaced, then that's a good thing because its helping you to come out of the fog. End this with the OW right now. She knows exactly what she's doing. You said that her H doesn't treat her very well. Well guess what, you DO. You are meeting her needs. At least some of them. Maybe she gets good sex at home from H and that's not important to her, but you are making her feel just as important as she makes you feel and that is your W's job NOT HERS. And her H's job, not yours.
Please ask GOD to help you see clearly the picture that is in front of you. Go get your wife, tell her you love her, run you fingers thru HER hair, tell HER you love her, hold HER hand, embrace HER and deposit love units in HER bank and you will see a beautiful thing start happening. Your Marriage will have a new life.
Good luck and GOD BLESS.
And once again, sorry if I offended anyone, it was NOT my intent.