Just to update, it has been a few days since I found out about my wife's second affair (a one night stand) and I am counting the days down until I finally have to leave her. She has seen the doctor and recieved fluoxetine and will get referred to a councellor today, but even with all this I feel in my heart that things went too far. <p>When we sleep together now, I wake to find her glued to the other end of the bed, almost off - never happened before. I would never wake up to her away from me, she would always be cuddled close or some appendage would be wrapped around me. Also now when we discuss things I get an awful lot of "me, me, me" still. Yesterday at lunch she said "I am a self centered - selfish *****" with pride, like it was a statement of vindication. I understand that she intends well with her words in this forum, and the practice what she preaches stuff is happening a bit now - with the doctors and the Prozac. Also she made no contact yeasterday with the OM or her "other life". This is what I was told, but the only way I can truly believe that is ...actually there is no way. I will just have to keep on with my affair research and keep the guard up. This is tiring people, very tiring. I am already suffering the worst hits of my life and yet I have little time to focus on that because I am constantly suspiscious and untrusting. First time in my life I can say I have been this way. <p>I went out yesterday and hung around town while my wife worked and ran into some old friends from here, people I hadn't seen in a while. After some conversation they asked about my wife and I caught a vibe from the question - so I said we had broken up before I left for my trip but now we are trying to get back together. Just tried to stop any embarrassing stuff from happening. They said how sorry they were, then proceeded to tell me about how WS and the OM were "couple of the year" at the local disco, always together, arm in arm and kissing in public. They also mentioned how they never saw how he could be her type, that I was much better looking, e.t.c... (likely for my beinefit but still did nothing to make me feel better) They also said that it was likely better for me to leave her. I can't understand how she would be so brazen and public with this guy. Did she think I was stupid? I can safely say now that even had I never suspected anything in Japan, I eventually would have found out just from walking around town!!! Jeez, RainMan would have found out. It hurts me deep that she had such little respect and made little or no effort to hide her betrayal from me. Why did she do that? I now feel incredible embarrassment, like I can look no person here in the eyes.<p>After this i had to talk to someone, so I sat at an outdoor cafe and called my best friend in Vancouver to talk with him about this. I have been avoiding my friends since this started. He was so shocked and hurt, it even sounded like he had been choked up by the news. Of course I can't mention the one night stand to him, because I am sure then he would send in the Navy Seals to extract me. He did mention something to me though, something that gave me a brief respite from this despair and chaos. He said I have options at home in Vancouver, that I don't need to be so hurt and angry anymore if I choose not. He mentioned there have been some women whom have asked about me over the past few years - one asked about me recently. He said "you've got options dog, you can be happy again." These things he said made me feel a modicum of relief because until that conversation I felt trapped here, held hostage by my own grief and WS's drama. <p>He isn't the only one to tell me this either. I met my business partner in town as well, he has a girlfriend here in Singapore and came here when I did. (BTW look for a new post regarding him and his girlfriend, cuz there is a drama there and I need advise bad) <p>We travelled together on the same job for over two years and we are really good friends. He has been aware of something wrong, but not to any detail. When I met him yesterday I felt relieved, because I have been avoiding my friends up until now. Now I see that was a mistake. He asked if she actually had an affair (PA) or if they were just good friends. (EA) I said "it's too embarrassing to talk about" and he understood instantly. He was SHOCKED completely, which hammers home my point that my wife does not come across as someone capable of this misery. Again I mentioned nothing about the one night stand as it is too much. He also told me about various women in our business that often asked about me, my status, e.t.c... <p>some personal history:
If I saw a couple walk by, and knew their history, that one was sleeping around on the other, I always believed in my heart that the BS was a chump, an idiot and a fool. I also thought that these people were inevitably setting themselves up for failure by trying to love someone so thoughtless and selfish. Now I am that person and I felt it yesterday for the first time - I felt shame - that I have turned into a chump, a freaking puppy dog following around the master that kicked him his whole life. <p>Any suggestions on how I stop these feelings? Can anyone tell me that this woman I have now is worth the effort because I grow so tired. I keep seeing actions, hearing phrases and words from her that tell me there are times when she still feels it was all "no big deal" (her favorite phrase). Certain things she will do while we are out that scream to me "she will do this to you again". <p>What else is there?<p>Confused, hurt and now very tired of it all
harley

Harley,<p>Have you discussed what you heard with your W? I think you should. It will take time for things to settle down Harley, then make your decision. It seems clear that your W needs serious help or there is no reason to continue the marriage. However, if she gets it, then I think there is hope.<p>I posted to you on your other thread. Please go read Plain Jane's thread and her H's Davidb. you will learn a lot.<p>Hang in there and God Bless,<p>JL

Hello Harley,<p>Ditto what JL said about your W needing serious help. Unless her destructive behavior stops permanently, you cannot have a M. I hope the doctor can help her. BTW, until you are divorced you are still married (to state the obvious). So until you are officially divorced, please do not even consider dating. That is wrong. Married men don't date outside the M, just like your WS should not have dated outside the M. If your W is agonizing about the wrong she has done to the M as she says, and if she is in withdrawal from OM, she will need time to work on herself before she can work on your M. Hang in there. This is unspeakably awful for you, but there IS hope that she can change. Don't give up.<p>Best wishes,
Estes

I can relate to what you are going thru at this minute Harley. In fact, just reading your latest post brought all the painful memories of 5 years ago.<p>My xW was, and still is to my knowledge, a compulsive liar with a sexual addiction. I begged her to go into treatment if not for us then for our two small daughters. She laughed at me and continued with her affair(s) at which point I realized that there was nothing I could do for her, and our M and proceeded to divorce her. In my case I had to think about the wellbeign of our daughters and the divorce was the only answer. I hired an attorney with a proven track record of winning tough custody cases and armed with a child protective services report indicating gross child negligence on her part, and an impartial judge, I got full custody of our daughters.<p>In your case, your W is willingly receiving treatment for her illness. She seems, by her posts here, that she is remorseful for what she has done to you and your M. So unlike my xW, you seem to have a shot, if your willing, at rebuilding your M.<p>As far as feeling like a chump and an idiot, I too experienced the same feelings. And just like you I too thought that this only happen to other, emasculated men with no backbone. Boy did I eat a big piece of humble pie. It seems that we men are more in denial of our W's cheating on us than women who seem to have a more realistic view of the possibility of infidelity by their H's.<p>There is no pill that can take away the pain, only time and realizing that we live in an uncertain world where there is no such thing as a sure thing, except death.<p>Hang tough guy, you'll make it and realize that you are not alone in your pain.<p>Good luck and God bless.<p>Joe

Hey man. You've got grueling work cut out for you. I agree with the others. Try not to even fantasize about other women until you get divorced. I do think you are justified in getting a divorce. Pray very hard for what God wants you to do. Do you have children? If not, that will make things easier. If so, my feeling is that generally, noone is better to parent a child than his or her parent. Of course, this is on a case by case basis. My H and I have started reading three books by the same author, "The Power of the Praying...H, W, and Parent" by Stormie Omartian. The way God works is by changing the pray-or before even starting on the pray-ee. I say this because you can learn to make yourself even more-so the Class A man you seem to be by prayer(and by learning about EN's here on this site), and ensuring that this will never happen again. Also, if you choose to leave the marriage, you'll need healing up time and to get rid of baggage. This seems to happen more readily with men but given that you just found out about the affairs, I suggest you give it about two years before you get seriously involved with someone. Also, your prayers would accomplish helping you find someone who will be forthright with you in everything and would not cheat on you. I think part of the success of my marriage (though we've had to walk through hell and high water to get here and still there are no guarantees) is due to the fact that I learned to pray for my marriage when I was a child. I have always believed God allowed divorce in case of EMA's but prayed that God would allow my marriage to be divorce-free, and essentially, affair-free. This would work for you as much as me. It's your decision, but I would suggest that you feel out your wife before giving her the boot. Pray for yourself and her and see where you stand. Even take a break from the situation. This could push her away, but in that case, it would be clear what you should do. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Joe,
So sorry to bring up the pain of years past. I admire you my friend, for not losing it in your situation and for thinking of your children. The little ones are our only reason for trying to be better people - the adults just don't seem worth the effort sometimes. Your WW has missed an opportunity to be with a good man, and I am sure karma will come back to bite her in the butt, if it hasn't already.<p>I am having a lot of trouble with this pride issue, with eating humble pie - and it has to do with how openly my wife treated her affair. I will never know who thinks this and who doesn't, who knows and who doesn't. Not that it matters what these people think, it's just that it makes me say the infamous phrase "how could she do this to me" over and over and ...<p>I wonder, do u think she was trying to get caught? I asked but she says I never came into her mind. What is that about? Secret lives, hidden motives, provocative stares, I am finding myself looking at everything from the past and hyper-analyzing it. The present too. I feel like a guy who just found out he is a paranoid schizophrenic and has to question whether his past was real or contrized... THIS SUX!!!!!!!!!!!!<p>Sexual addiction and cumpulsive behavioural disorder, it's all so latin to me. I don't know how to believe that what was done was not just flat out selfishness and thoughtlessness, with a dash of immorality.<p>It's like the story of two men - both brought up with abuse from elders, both suffering head trama and both belittled and suffering. Why does one man grow up to kill 16 people and the other maintain a normal and even healthy existence? I have a hard time not believeing that we look too far for a reason for the action, and not enough at consequences for the action itself. I mean how many people have had therapy for years, pharmacological and councelling - yet they still habitually f%^& up? ('scuse the language)<p>If you ask me I think that alot of our modern psycological techniques and terminologies may have a place - for the really disturbed, but this also can become an excuse to remain irresponsible and to even plunge further into excess. ("It's not my fault I'm a drunk, I was told I can't control it") <p>Selfishness is not cumpulsive sex disorder. Thoughtlessness is not compulsive lying. I am having a hard time with these things. Hope you all can understand. Please accept my appreciation to all of you for helping me and my WW through this. And you are right Joe, I believe she is feeling remorse. <p>Major setback today though, she can't get an appointment for a therapist for two weeks. <p>harley

contrized = contrived. Duh!!!!! Tiiyping not so goood 2dai. Soryyy y'all. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

vhh,
I, too know how you're feeling. It's been 18 months since I found out about some things, a little over a year since she confessed all. My W was very similar to yours, and a few some others who have been here at MB's. <p>Believe it or not, there are some advantages to having a situation like ours. When there is a history of compulsive behavior, the treatment is like that for an alcoholic - abstainance. If your W gets help from a center, or therapist, familliar with SA, she will know that she must start a new way of living her life. She'll have to give up the attention-seeking, and tell the truth at all times. Probably her confession to you is her beginning to realize she has to be honest. <p>My W and I both suffered terribly as all the truth came out. Her treatment was a help for me too as I took part in family therapy there. The feelings you have are normal and may get worse for a time. There is a complex relationship between the addict and spouse that has been going on. As all the stuff is dealt with you will learn much about you. Take care of yourself, try to eat and sleep. Avoid alcohol, try to get some time off from work if you need it - I did.<p>My W wrote a post to you and your W. I know she put a lot into it. It's here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=015693
good luck
David

No need to apologize Harley because those painful memories do not have the same impact on me today as they had when the whole mess was still very fresh. I guess you might say that most of my emotional circuits regarding that dark period in my life have been burned out. I did almost come very close to losing it and killing both her and her lover but then I saw the faces of my very young daughters and knew that losing it was not an option for me. In a way, my daughters love for me rescued me from committing a tragedy.<p>As far as the pride issue is concerned, it will probably go away faster than your W's recovery. You need to because it can become emotional baggage that can poison your future relationships. And it wouldn't surprise me that your real friends will probably admire you for your strength, courage and love instead of pitying you for your W's actions.<p>I don't think people like my xW and your W cared about getting caught because their minds are in another world oblivious to the fallout that their actions will have on the people that truly care and love them. They are both weak people that are afraid to face life head on.<p>Maybe the difference between similar people with similar tragic backgrounds chosing different paths depend on many things but two in particular stand out and they are hope for a better future and the will to act to achieve that better future.<p>As far as the selfish taking responsability for their actions, I agree with you that there is the potential to abuse the 'sickness' factor to justify and continue doing harm not only to themselves but to others as well.<p>It is not a sin to be sick, but it is a sin to know that you are sick and still refuse to do anything that can make you well again.<p>There is no excuse for my xW's and your W's sexual escapades even if they were the result of an addiction. Their selfishness caused a lot of pain to me, my children, and to you.<p>But as I said before, in contrast with my xW, your W has recognized that her sickness and her selfish actions, brought terrible pain and suffering to you.<p>Almost everybody here admires an alcoholic or a crackhead that is trying to get rid of his addiction and return to a normal, productive life. That person is worthy of help from everybody.<p>For now, your W is putting her money where her mouth is and you as her H should help her recover in the best way that you can.<p>If for some reason your W's condition deteriorates despite her treatment and your support, then you can divorce her and hold your head high that you gave it your best by fulfilling the marriage vow to be there in sickness and in health, but that it was her choice in prefering her addiction and all the selfish destructive acts that come from it, over a life with a good man that loved her with all his heart.<p>It doesn't matter how strong you are as a man, what happened to you, me and DavidB, shakes our manhood to the core and makes us doubt our worth as men. It isn't until a friend,like your best bud from Vancouver, informs you that there are women asking about you that you realize that there are women out there that want you and value you as a man. Now that is a great truth. <p>But be careful in falling victim for the admiration of the opposite sex when your emotional state of mind is far from recovered. It seems apparent that your W had emotional issues that stretch way back before you and her ever met. She used the admiration of the opposite sex as a great pain releiver and crutch instead of dealing with the painful issues in her life until just like with an alcoholic who starts using alcohol to escape from his problems, it becomes an addiction.<p>Selfishness and thoughtlesness are more like bi-products of something else like sexual addiction and pathological lying. <p>Maybe the reason why we try to find the causes of selfishness and thoughtlesness is to hopefully be better able to deal with them and possibly pre-empt their coming to fruition.<p>
Take care and God bless.<p>Joe<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

VHH,
Hello, welcome. Just a couple things to add.
1) great that you didnt loose your sense of humor-
really it will come in handy. When there is nothing left to do- laugh. A few of us on here use humor as an outlet (or sarcasm as the case may be)

2)Your wife is not DOING this to you, she is not thinking of you at all when she is doing this. Try not to take it personally. She is only thinking of the moment, selfish thoughts.<p>3)Nice girls dont go out with married men(you).<p>4)The feeling like a "puppy" thingy. ya, I was one of those who said things like, "he would only mess up once" "once a cheater always a cheater" "why does she put up with that? I wouldnt" Ihave since found it would have been easier for me to leave than stay, I can face people who know with pride that I took the hardest road and lived. I have faced this with grace(most of the time) I have had friends say that if it happens to them they hope they could handle it as well (little do they know how unstable I really was). As someone here says - I dont have to like my situation, but I can like myself in it.
I usually post in recovery but found your sarcasm refreshing so I replied. You will find lots of help here, you are not alone.

Can anyone tell me how to search for past posts. I can't seem to get the search thing to work and I am looking for posts from PlainJane and DavidB from last year. <p>Thanx in advance

vhh,
OK. If you look at the top of my post you'll see a little "glasses" icon. Click on that to show my profile. You'll see my member number is 7954. Click on "search" at the top of the page, enter "all open forums" in the search field, and enter 7954 under "search by member number" PJ's number is 8430 . If you search PJ's number you come up with:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi...search_user=00008430&File=temp-24523 27-001032-yFzv.cgi&Total=&StartAt=62<p>A big url hopefully it will work - if not, just search like I suggested.
David

vhh,
Yeah, that url got cut off. If you copy/paste the entire url - all the way from http to 62 - and enter it into your browsers file/open field, it will work.
David

vhh,
Hey, here's something else I wrote back then. It's from another site. <p>Hope this will let you see that you're not alone and you can recover from this. Here's my post from a few days after she confessed:
-----------
update- wifes message
January 31 2001 at 8:40 AM Dave (no login)
<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First off, thanks so much for the support. Last night was horrible. My wife posted something on another board this morning, and she's given me permission to copy it here. I'm putting this on a new thread so it's not buried at the bottom.<p>She fails to mention that when I learned of who one of the OMs was, I let out a shriek, and slapped her on top of the head. I feel bad about that. At least I didn't hurt her. This is the only time I've gotten so upset. I'm really a gentle person. When I told her to leave or I'd hit her I didn't mean it.
Well, here's her post:
---------------
I want to first say that I was still not 100% honest. Even though I said it. I still had one more that I didn't want to fess up. I did. It hurt so bad. So, even though I told him I was being 100% honest, I still held back. So, this brings the total betrayal to 5. He found out about 3, I confessed to the one, via email, and then the other to his face. So, as you can see we are dealing with SO MUCH HORROR IT IS A NIGHTMARE. I feel like such a liar. But, I do feel good, that I finally came clean.
When I got home, I knew that I could no longer hold back. It was do or die. No more lies. I told him. He told me to leave. "30 minutes or your gonna get hit".<p>My h is non violent, so, when he said that I had no choice. I told him that I was going to my brothers. I left, it felt like I was driving for hours. I thought about everything, but it was kinda like shock mode. Just driving. It took over an hour to get there. I thought I will drink when I get there. I was at a long red light, and I thought about all the insanity, all the unmangability. What the H*LL is drinking gonna do????????I did not drink.<p>I called home, and H wanted to talk to me. 2 calls, he hung up on me. But, he wanted to talk! Finally, he said, I want you here, but, we are going to talk, I said fine. I left, prayed the whole way. Please let me find the truth.<p>Well, I got back home at 7 and it was rough, BUT I did not get angry. I did not flip. I answered the questions. All of them no matter how ugly they were. We were up until 3. I had to go to work today, but I did ask off for the rest of the week.<p>I have never in my life cried so hard and so long last night. It was unbelievable. The truth. No matter how ugly, I had to purge it from my body. I felt like an animal. I couldn't stop crying. I laid there in the fetal position, sobbing, low groaning sobs, that I did not even know I was able to do. I was so sick with what I did , so horrified that I literally trashed my marriage for NOTHING.<p>How could I do such a heinous thing. My husband only wanted to love me. I thought in the wee hours that I was having a nervous breakdown, the crying didn't subside for at least 45 minutes at one point, I was even hallucinating. It was horrible. I was so scared. I didn't want him to leave my side. He held me. When just hours before, he told me he never wanted to touch me again.<p>He held me while I cried, told me it would be ok. I am so scared to lose him. I was so mad at myself for what I had done to him, my family, friends, I TRASHED EVERYTHING, FOR NOTHING.<p>This is so hard. Right now, he is at home, but we are talking. I want so badly to be there, hopefully, I will. In just a few short hours I will be back home again.<p>I love him so much, and I just pray that somehow, we are able to work thru this. I beleive that the truth now that it is out, he still is unsure of it, but, I know that I am 100% clean. Ugly as it is, I know that there are no more secrets. It is a relief, however, it still hurts more than anything I have ever felt in my love.<p>PJ
---------------------end of her post
---<p>This says it better than I could. I've never heard her cry like that. She would sob "I'm sorry" over and over again. As much as I've felt that she was still hiding things before - her behavior last night was like you would expect of someone who had "hit bottom", and was finally facing the truth.<p>She is trying to get the next two days off, and we would have some time to try to work through this. If the end result of this is that I can finally feel that I know the truth, then I guess It had to be. I haven't eaten but I'm beginnng to feel a little better.<p>Oh, someone asked, and yes, my wife answered everything I asked her. She tried to avoid, or say "I don't remember" to the tough ones, but when I pressed, she told the truth. We're going to be talking more. Our whole life is in shambles. She's ruined our 12 step group, by having sex with her sponsors husband. She's betrayed all her friends one way or another. The two OM at her job have left the company, so she still works there, but it's tough to deal with. I insist that she says not one word to any male that is not a work issue. <p>Funny, I made a shambles of my life 14 years ago. I started a new life after everyone gave up on me. I've wanted from the beginning to say I didn't give up on her. I guess I still love her..
Dave<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Davidb ]</p>