Why don't I listen to you good folk, who have been there and know the mistakes?<p>Of course, as usual, I got good advice and ignored it. This morning, I called my wife to leave a little love note on the answering machine (thought she was out). But she was home and answered. So I gave her the "love note" directly. No response. Silence. Then "What?"
I said "Nothing". "Well, what is wrong?" I said "Nothing". "I know something is wrong. What do you want me to say? What do you want me to do?"<p>So (here i GO) i say "I would like you to respond to my love note the way you would respond to his love note. I want you to have conversations with me like the 1 hour phone calls you have with him and the 2 hours you spend on line with him. I want you to desire me. To look forward to being with me. To be head over heels in love with me. I want everything you gave to him".<p>Her reply: "Are you done,now? Here you go trying to force my behavior. Wanting everything right now. Not willing to wait until it comes naturally. Trying to control how I act, how I respond. Telling me what YOU WANT. Same old thing."<p>I said "No- it is not the same old thing. I am just expressing my needs, so you'll know what they are. You don't ask, so how will you know? Do you think all of a sudden a fairy will spread dust on you and you will change? No- you have to learn what I want so you can give it to me. You know-you always give the same answer to me. Wait- be patient- don't rush things- I'm handling it. How convenient. You can just keep saying that forever, while nothing changes."<p>Her reply: "Yeah , right. Real nice thing to say. You really love me, don't you? You only love me if and when I give you exactly what you want, right?"<p>So-my mea culpa: "You are right. I am sorry. I shouldn't be saying these things. I promise to be patient one day, to give you time, then I renege. Then I fail. Please try to forget what I've done and forgive me. Let's start today over.
I love you. I'll see you tonite."<p>End of conversation.<p>And this is the same merry go round I ride every few days. My patience works for a few days, then I make a selfish demand. My anger stays controlled for a few days, then I have an outburst. My criticism stays in my head for a few days, then I make a disrespectful judgment. <p>
And every time-it's like being back at square one. Even though my wife says it's not-it feels like I am making NO PROGRESS.<p>God- this is so hard. And I spend so much time thinking about it. Yet it just rolls off her shoulders and she gets on with life like nothing is wrong!

learn from thsoe mistakes<p>DO NOT EXPECT ANYTHING FROM YOUR WW <p>she can't do it now, yes it is very hard but slow & steady wins the race<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: sing ]<p>Wiffle, I fixed I hope. I am not great at spelling or typing, & not on the computer where I can cut, paste, spell check & cut & past again<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: sing ]</p>

Sing,
Do you mean Do not ACCEPT anything from your WW?
Or Do not EXPECT anything from your WW?<p>I would go with number 2.

Well Boppo, there is nothing you can do NOW to change that conversation. It happened. So use it as a learning experience... write this down. The next time you feel like having this same conversation, pull it out and read it.<p>Learn from this!<p>Love,
Clear

well boppo, for what it is worth, this happens exactly like that around here, and I pretty much respond just like your wife does.....why?...cause it is CONTROL, you are trying to make us be/feel/do what you want us to...for YOU...further it reveals you have not changed at all, the sameo sameo just controlling yourself better cause of the fear of losing us...hint.. that is very UNATTRACTIVE (and unappealing) to a ws....we are hypervigilant to such things, we didn't just wander off cause we are doofus (no comments plz) we wander off cause we (some of us) are done with the marriage, we do not want to be married that way (whatever it was)... then the bs suddenly wakes up and decides they want to do all this stuff, but they really don't change anything, they just behave better, so nothing is fundamentally different, the marriage is still a lousy place, and we are just stuck with it (and you) for other reasons....we don't want to be unhappy, or make you unhappy, but we catergorically, absolutely, are not going to live the way we were, or with who you were...the ball is in your court boppo, she has said she is staying to work, and she has made it clear what you have to do...which is essentially leave her alone, and let her determine her own behaviour....plan b if you want, but get off her back...those are your only 2 choices..<p>
disclaimer...I wrote this sort of 1/2 snl and half your wife trying to convey some of the emotion to you...I know exactly how she feels, and it is like property....something broken needing to be fixed (by the all knowing boppo of course...ya get it?). Good luck.... btw this seems to crop up more with male bs for some reason, hurt tired must be your first cousin or something.<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Hi, I dont know if what I can share with you will be helpful, but after reading your story I felt that my experience might give you a new perspective.<p>Quick recap ::::::<p>01/20/02 A comes to light, we fight, i ask her to leave. She packs, she takes off with OM, i call her tell her, her actions speak louder than words and that our son is not going anywhere with her acting this way. She comes home 10 mins later, raging mad, we exchange harsh words, she freaks out and attacks me, then she calls police and they come and end up escorting her off the premises. Next morning she comes home, says she made a mistake, is willing to work this out if I still want her. So for the next 4 days we start working on us, its awesome, like its never been we get along so great.<p> here is the meat and potatoes of the story<p>while WS was home, i kept telling her that she my full support in everyway, trying to be loving not emotional. One nite we are getting dinner ready and I asked her if she has talked to OM, she said she did, I asked her what she said to him, she said <p>"It was too risky to see him anymore" <p>I lost it, i just turned away from her and started doing something else. After a few mins I came back and put my arms around her and told her I was sorry, I said how can you believe me when I say you have my full support, but then when you tell me something I judge you, thats not what love is. <p>She really appreaciated that, or at least she said she did. The lesson, STOP JUDGING. thats most likely what got you in this mess in the first place, disrespectful judgments<p>Keep working on your self, an excellent book if you have not read it yet is Self Matters by Phil McGraw, this book has helped me to overcome my action/reaction mode. Now I spend more time listening, when I can.<p>Its hard but with practice you will get better. Practice MB guidlines in all your relationships, that way it just becomes second nature.

SnL- I decided the last time you sorta took over my post on "Blessing a Marriagee born out of an Affair" that i would steer clear of your posts. But I have to respond.<p>You wrote:<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>the bs suddenly wakes up and decides they want to do all this stuff, but they really don't change anything, they just behave better, so nothing is fundamentally different, the marriage is still a lousy place, and we are just stuck with it (and you) for other reasons....we don't want to be unhappy, or make you unhappy, but we catergorically, absolutely, are not going to live the way we were, or with who you were. <hr></blockquote><p>This is typical WS stuff. You latch on to the one area where you don't see the change YOU want-but ignore all of the other areas where change has happened, big time. I won't go into all of the areas where I've changed-but here are a few:<p>financial responsibility;
spending more time with kids;
being spiritual leader of house;
giving my wife undivided attention; etc.etc.<p>Now-for all WS out there. Are you also willing to make RADICAL changes for the marriage? Or are you like SnL seems to be-not accepting who BS is but not willing to change WS?<p>I admit that I have needs that I want satisified. Isn't satisfying EN's what MB is all about? A 2 way street- my friend. Both spouses-satisfying each other's needs. Right now- I am trying to learn my wife's EN's and satisfy them. Right now it is a one way street. My wife is not really concerned about my needs. She appears to be satisfying someone elses. That is not OK with me, but I have to accept it and pray that she will eventually come back to me. She is coming back, as I see it. But that doesn't negate my right to have the needs-or to express them, does it? <p>
I admit I was wrong to have this conversation with my wife. I apologized and promised to try to do better. I am 11 weeks from d0day, trying to change 22 years of behavior. Yes, my behavior is unatrractive. But SnL, isn't lying unattractive? Isn't ignoring your spouse's love unattractive? Isn't having sex in the afternoon and then kissing your spouse hello at night unattractive? Let's take some reposnsibility here. Oh, I forgot. The "FOG" abdicates the WS of all responsibility, right! <p>No need for a reply SnL- I have read many of your posts and I can predict what you will say (probably the same thing most WS's would say).<p>I am venting here. I know I did something wrong and I freely admitted it in my post. I don't need other WS's to give me the same criticism I already get at home.

We all do it. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] No matter how many of these good, well-meaning, experienced, been-there-done-that friends tell us what we ought to do, we say to ourselves, "but MY situation is different!!! I'll just try it MY way, and see what happens." [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My daily e-mail inspirational thought for the day:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Today I am grateful for my ability to change,
even though I feel uncomfortable with the
feelings that come with new ways.<p>Change means letting go of the old and taking
up the new. It means closing doors that kept me
in the past and opening the doors of my
present reality.<p>My experience caused me to become rigid in
an effort to cling to some narrow perception of
my world that allowed me to feel safe. The
notion of holding things still, not allowing
them to change, offered me a scrap of security.
But the nature of life is cyclical and moving.
We are all passing through on a journey.
Anything we own has really only been
temporarily placed in our care by the Great
Mother.<p>When I let go of the old and make room for the
new, I expect that my reward will be ease and
comfort. Instead I find myself fearful of
beginning again and, like a young, tender
baby, I need much care and attention to grow
and flourish. With time and compassion I will
become more comfortable. I give myself this
time and compassion. <hr></blockquote>

Boppo
I know how you are feeling. I think I have said almost the same things to WH. We all make mistakes and bad judgements. Learn from them. I haven't been at this much longer than you and I understand how easy it is to let anger take over. <p>I read a post by Lostva and found her perspective helpful. She said anger was just another way of showing hurt. So she just let herself hurt and dealt with it. It saved her from dealing with that slow burning continuous anger. The rawness will ease and the hurt will find its place. I thought about that and it made sense. What was the anger getting me? Nothing! It was pushing my WH away. SNL brings up a good point and an insight into the WS perspective.<p>I decided to take all that energy I was wasting being angry and put it into me and making my life with my WH better. It's not easy by any means - triggers can be so painful. But when I feel angry, I write a letter to WH in my journal. He will never read them, but it gets me past the moment. I can let it go, take a step back. Breathe.

Boppo, <p>I realize that you are hurt right now and I can not make this better for you. But even though you may not want to look at what SNL is giving to you, he is actually giving you a gift. <p>He is playing the part of your WS for you right now. He is letting you know how she may be feeling right now without you having to face her. Use that. If you are angry, let it out here. There are times when I want to explode as I am sure you do to. Do that here. Get it out. There is no right or wrong when it comes to how someone feels, just how they treat others. Just because she is letting you down by the way she is treating you, do not let her down. Be the stronger person. Get those things out here and to her be the supportive, loving person we here have all seen and know you can be. <p>For now remember that she feels how she feels. You can change that. Not by talking to her and telling her she is wrong, but by showing her the real you. The loving, patient and understanding you. As the BS when we try to tell them they are wrong, we are wrong. Just like it would be unfair for her to tell you what you are feeling is wrong.
You are doing the right thing by venting here. If yu need to yell at someone, I am here for you. Yell at me, yell at SNL. I can't take your pain away, but you I can let you yell at me for a while. I have been through much worse. <p>Be strong. Hang in there. And use what SNL has given you in a productive way.

Boppo,<p>SnL is a fruad, don't waste your time on him. He doesn't even pretend to see both sides of things, just his point of view.<p>As for your talk, Yup, you blew it. Plan A is about working on YOU and meeting her needs. What I am suspecting is that you are having an increasingly hard time with plan A. Is that true??<p>If so, then you should begin to consider plan B. Apparently, the affair is still on, albeit at a lower level. Your W is definitly not working on your marriage, but she may be working her way back toward you. <p>However, her response is a perfect debate tactic to through you off. She didn't respond she attacked you. It is clear she doesn't want to talk with you because she is guilty. So don't talk with her. Frankly, it is her job to find out your needs and she knows how. She just doesn't care.<p>Since she doesn't care, I think you need to simply back off. Telling her what you need makes no difference. It is like offering to sell someone a gallon of water, while they stand be a clear clean stream. It isn't much of an offer.<p>Boppo, just back away from all conversations right now. Let her start them. If it comes to be too much, then it is time for Plan B. You see you have 22 years of history with her, and neither of your histories are without blemishes. She is choosing to focus on yours to hid what she is doing.<p>You cannot correct that, you can not teacher a better way, you cannot make her love you, you cannot do anything. However, you can do one thing and that is give her total control. Then all of the failings of the marriage become hers. Don't try to get it back from her, let her have it. It will weight her down.<p>As much as SNL likes to talk about BS's attempts to control, he fails to acknowledge that he and most WS' have total control of their marriage and it is failing because they have not exercised it correctly. That is the fraudulant part of their thinking. They keep claiming the BS is controlling them, when in fact they have all of the control, from starting the affairs, to deciding to work on the marriage.<p>So give it to her, and then make your decisions based on how she uses it.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

no argument here boppo, it is not about whether you are morally wrong (or even rationally wrong), it is about what works, and what does not, in the murky world of human relationships.....you only have 2 choices, leave her be, or leave her, you have no right to educate her, it is the single most disrespectful thing one human being can do to another, and usually fails miserably....the thing is (probably cause this is mostly a bs board) the ws is just as right as the bs, something bs have such a hard time coming to grips with...it is all about perception, and how you can change that in another, and you can't do it by telling them to change....the mere fact that one will not stop doing such is sufficient reason to end a marriage....I know 22 years is a long time, far be it to me to chastise you, or expect miracles, my sole purpose was to stand in for your w a bit, and give you another target to educate...I see you did that....as for your other changes, I suspect you are getting credit, she is still there..right? and she is doing stuff..right? so what's the problem? IMO one should do lots of introspection in life, and this sort of response you had to your wife reveals a gaping hole in how you view relationships, you come across like you are "owed" her love because of what you do....IMO she owes you nothing, no matter what you do (well, she does have responsibilities, don't mean that, but talking about love here), love must be freely given, it cannot be expected, asked for, negotiated for, or earned..and you seem to be having difficulty with that (but then, most people do, cause we have expectations, and bygosh, if you don't meet em, I am gonna let you know it, talk/read bramblerose stuff, she is a bs, and finally figured this out).<p>so was your prediction re my response correct?<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

as for you jl, could say the same about you, but I won't....you don't know it all bud....your agenda is quite clear as well. And I would bet good money you are completely wrong about boppos wife, but then again how would you understand anything about a ws, having never been one, and that is where you mess up with advice, you should stick to what you know, not discount those of us who have been there...ya know.<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

sad-n-lonely:<p>.. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> we didn't just wander off cause we are doofus (no comments plz) we wander off cause we (some of us) are done with the marriage, we do not want to be married that way (whatever it was)... then the bs suddenly wakes up and decides they want to do all this stuff, but they really don't change anything, they just behave better, so nothing is fundamentally different, the marriage is still a lousy place, and we are just stuck with it (and you) for other reasons....we don't want to be unhappy, or make you unhappy, but we catergorically, absolutely, are not going to live the way we were, or with who you were<hr></blockquote><p>Please. Typical WS behavior. Marriage was a lousy place for BS too. For some of us, far worse. Still we didn't cheat. Do you think you were the only one w/the opportunity? You choose who you love & who you spend time with. <p>If you were done with the marriage you should have said so instead of breaking marriage vows & going off to find your new mate. Did you give your spouse that opportunity? No. Deceit & betrayal aren't honorable or excusable. Period.<p>Still, if wanted a better marriage instead of running full-speed at someone else couldn't you have put that energy into the marriage? It may have taken longer but look how much pain you would have saved someone you at least claimed to love once.<p>I am not apologizing for one thing I have said. I would rather lovebust you than my husband who is trying to work on himself & figure out why he wasn't man enough to work on himself or the marriage earlier.

betty, I was not responding in a philosophic way to boppo, but as a ws so as to offer insight for whatever good it does. I have discussed the issues you raise many many times, but if you want to discuss it any with this ws probably should start another thread, my comments have a propensity to start side debates in others threads, and I am trying to do less of that...unless boppo wants to..and I doubt he does.<p>btw, thanks for being honest, and I wouldn't expect you to apologize (you weren't rude/crude/abusive or anything)...and I get "lb" all the time here by bs and displaced anger, I just figure it is a way I can help actually, and it is ok.<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Boppo...yes, it's true that you did something here that possibly set your recovery back. You also realize that you did it, though, and apologized for it...which is a good thing, so congratulations!<p>Seeing the behaviors and being WILLING to change them are two different things, though...do you really see the wrong of such behavior, and are you really willing to change it? If you are, you have to prove this to your W. Just as your W would have to prove to you that she would not have an affair again, so you too will have to prove that you will not fake changing your behavior just to "lure her back in". <p>This fear of the fake "new you" is one of her biggest fears right now, and a fear that your waffling behavior is only feeding into...that's why it's such a setback when this sort of thing happens...she may not believe that you sincerely want to change or that you see that change is necessary...*convince* her that you *do* see it and that you know it's necesssary (and that you want to do it).<p>I know it's hard...and eventually your W will be ready to help meet your needs...but now is not the time for her to be able to give anything. It has to be all you, Boppo...you have to set the example here, so to speak. I think you can do it [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good Luck!

Boppo -- <p>I'm concerned about your efforts at Plan A.<p>Because my H (BS) made the same type of effort you're describing.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> And this is the same merry go round I ride every few days. My patience works for a few days, then I make a selfish demand. My anger stays controlled for a few days, then I have an outburst. My criticism stays in my head for a few days, then I make a disrespectful judgment. <p>And every time-it's like being back at square one. Even though my wife says it's not-it feels like I am making NO PROGRESS. <hr></blockquote><p>Don't even bother saying you're in Plan A if you can't do it without LB's every couple of days. <p>I'm not saying this to make you feel worse than you already do, but the LB's always had the effect of reinforcing that I was RIGHT about him. And reinforcing that his changes were only temporary.<p>So if you want to be in Plan A, you gotta get control of yourself.

I'm not gonna scold... been there done that... they don't give out t-shirts... yep... you pushed... when you push... they push back... and at her stage of recovery, probably, w/ anger and guilt...<p>You know what to do... <p>there's a really good explanation in Divorce Remedy where a BS chases, pursues and pushes the WS right out the door and they divorce... you gotta back up and back off... cool off totally on the "I love yous." Don't call and leave messages. Drop the card stuff for a month or so.... see the reaction you get then... BUT ACT as IF everything is all good... act in belief and faith... do this and let us know what happens...<p>Hugs,
Cali

Boppo-<p>I've been reading your posts and am amazed at how much progress you and W have made since DDay, but (always someones but getting in the way), I believe you are pushing the recovery way to hard. I fully understand how you feel about getting the M back on track and make things better than they ever were, all us BS's want that, or else we wouldn't be here, right? Its also a guy thing to fix what is broken, its genetic, we cant help it, but we have overcome this if we want the M to be restored properly.<p>Please take some time off from the big issues and enjoy what you have right now. A lot of us would give anything to have the WS be at the place yours is. No more relationship talk, no more 'me or him' statements, no more telling her how bad you feel and what you want, no more pushing. If you do this, I think you will be amazed at how much more progress the two of you will make, and at how much more enjoyable it will be.<p>Just 'Let It Be'<p>And when the broken hearted people
Living in the world agree,
There will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is
Still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be. Yeah
There will be an answer, let it be.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>I'm not gonna scold... been there done that... they don't give out t-shirts... yep... you pushed... when you push... they push back... and at her stage of recovery, probably, w/ anger and guilt...<p>You know what to do... <p>there's a really good explanation in Divorce Remedy where a BS chases, pursues and pushes the WS right out the door and they divorce... you gotta back up and back off... cool off totally on the "I love yous." Don't call and leave messages. Drop the card stuff for a month or so.... see the reaction you get then... BUT ACT as IF everything is all good... act in belief and faith... do this and let us know what happens...<p>Hugs,
Cali</strong><hr></blockquote><p>read the above again. good advice, print it out & when you get that feel, read again.