snl,<p>you posted this in another thread.<p>-----------
*Extramarital sex is a consistent feature in the history of humankind.<p>snl..which in simple terms means it is normal, no reason to dwell on guilt or morality, but rather why and what to do about it, which is my point all along re the occurence of an affair. There are very specific reasons for every single thing human beings do, we are finely tuned to SURVIVE or we would be extinct. Affairs clearly are an important survival mechanism for our species, the conclusion is inescapable, and actually makes very good sense.<p>-----------<p>OK, not trying to start a fight here. I don't have any data to back this up. I have my own opinions and I'm sure they're supported by most here but will concede we are in a tainted enviroment.<p>1. Just because people have affairs does not suggest they do not have empathy. They are two very different things. Affairs happen and will continue to happen until people understand "before" they get into an affair the widespread damage that is inevitable to "ALL" parties involved (and even those not involved).<p>2. A different situation. Let's suppose a husband went to Vegas and lost $50,000 - A couples entire savings and maxed out the credit card. He's not a gambling addict but just wanted a new car so bad he thought he could get it this way. His selfish act affected others. He now has to go home and tell his W she has to get a job. Should he feel no guilt? After all, I would imagine bad financial decisions are made as frequently as affairs.<p>3. This one's for you. Let's take 100 WS's. What percentage do you think feel no guilt even years later? Is it normal human behaviour to use JUSTIFICATIONS to escape guilt?<p>
who<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: whothehellisshe ]</p>

ok you hooked me, never met a philosophoc question I could refuse, probably some sort of dysfunction.<p>My comment about normal was not a stamp of approval, it was a simple observation...Normal is a funny word, it essentially means nothing, what is "normal" where is the standard written?<p>So we use it in many different ways, usually in the context "I" am normal, and you are not (cause you are behaving differently than me) and therefore need to change....this is the "first" definition of normal, and you being a rationalist, I am sure join me in rejecting that outright, not even worthy of consideration.<p>I have thought long and hard over this topic, what is normal and how do we apply that to human choices, it is a tool on the rational side of the equation, it provides oversite to our emotional tools... keep that in mind, it is not an end to itself.<p>The first order definition of normal fairly leaps out at us, if the majority of human beings behave in a certain manner, ipso facto, that is "normal".... deviations from this norm have to be assessed with a stricter standard (meaning have a good excuse) to justify it as a choice, or in other words, within the "set" of normalcy. In the case of "infidelity", it is clearly normal, by the first order definition, and we must apply it so, cause we use that same definition for all sorts of normal behaviour we would not want to throw out...right? <p>We cannot selectively apply normal to human behaviour, that is rationalization. Anyways there is a whole host of anthropological reasons why infidelity is normal, indeed essential to human survival as a species....one proof is the observation that all life forms are promiscuous, every one, that suggests something rather compelling about mother nature, and species survival (mother natures mandate)....if we don't survive, we will not be able to have these delightful conversations over what is normal...ya know.<p>So infidelity is "normal"... what does that mean, do we embrace it, stamp it out, let ourselves be destroyed over it...what, what do we do.... that is a whole nother ballgame.... and involves some additional definitions of "normal".... My comment in the original post cali made was re the truths I just mentioned, IMO couching infidelity in "wrong" semantics, is futile, because it is not wrong, it is what human beings do, and for good reason, such diaglog will not lead to good outcomes....instead IMO the arguments should center on why infidelity is not a good choice for YOU, because when we convince a human being that a desired behaviour is in THEIR best interest, we have the greatest likelihood of permanent change....<p>IF we attempt to coerce them with shame and guilt, we will usually fail, such are very poor motivators for permanent change, and usually elicit a defensive component which defeats the short term change shame and guilt wrought.... Guilt is the primary tool our society uses in the battle against infidelity.... "HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO ME", and as we can easily observe, the tool fails miserably.... for very good reason, but that is another discussion.<p>wifty...1. Just because people have affairs does not suggest they do not have empathy. They are two very different things. <p>snl...I agree.<p>wifty...Affairs happen and will continue to happen until people understand "before" they get into an affair the widespread damage that is inevitable to "ALL" parties involved (and even those not involved).<p>snl..I agree, but they will not stop for other reasons, the problem is the marriage paradigm is wrong, and is unworkable in its present form for human beings.... but the good news is we are an evolving species, and will get it right eventually...cause if we don'r we won't be here to debate it [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>2. A different situation. Let's suppose a husband went to Vegas and lost $50,000 - A couples entire savings and maxed out the credit card. He's not a gambling addict but just wanted a new car so bad he thought he could get it this way. His selfish act affected others. He now has to go home and tell his W she has to get a job. Should he feel no guilt? <p>snl...Guilt is a remarkably useless emotion, it solves nothing (and can plunge one into depression)...it's only use, (and that is marginal) is as an attention getter that you are violating some internal constrainsts....it is impossible to define guilt, or say someone should feel guilt, to do so is manipulative...if I wanted to, I could concoct circumstances which would make your example the right choice for this man (admittedly would have to strain reality, but I can do it)...what he is "guilty" of is poor judgement, and I would be much much happier (as his spouse) if he realized that, made the necessary corrections in himself so as to not ever repeat this error of judgement, that would be what I value, remorse and guilt would just annoy me, they are wasteful of emotional resources. If you are asking (in a roundabout way) if I will ever have an affair again, the answer is no, I have analyzed it, and made the necessary changes (cause I recognize the value of those changes), coupled with an experience base to recognize how such things come about, it is extremely unlikely (course nothing is impossible), that I will ever be involved in an affair again....that does not mean I regret this experience, I don't (it would be nonsensical to regret a life experience that teaches you things). What I regret is hurting my w, the ow, and all the other people involved, but I recognize this is "normal" and everyone will be fine if they want to be.... that is the way life works.<p>wifty..3. This one's for you. Let's take 100 WS's. What percentage do you think feel no guilt even years later?
snl....Hmmmmm.... I suspect few ws feel guilt (if they are radically honest), and those who do are using it as a tool for reconcilliation (manipulation), or as self-flagellation (self-hate). I DO think most ws are quite remorseful about hurting the bs, but recognize they didn't have the affair to hurt the bs..... affairs are rarely about the bs, they are about the ws, so it is inherently a "normal" behaviour, and as such hard to feel guilty about in terms of bs pain.... At this point, no doubt, a few MB'ers want to strangle snl again, remember this is just an analytical post, and is about human psychology, I am not discounting the very real effects infidelity has on a bs, or that they are deserveing of healing efforts from the ws, for the ws, that is one of the consequences of leaveing the marriage in this fashion....an an ethical person will try to meet that obligation... I have not been a bs (although I have been betrayed, and it does hurt), so my next comment is for what it is worth. If I were the recipient of an infidelity, guilt and remorse would be the last things I want...what I would want are ANSWERS, why did this happen, who am I married too, do I want to continue to be married to who this person really is.... etc. etc.... as well as lots of self-answers, how did I contribute to marriage that would include infidelity, and am I the right partner myself, for this person...in other words, blame has no place in this process, only understanding...which is what you have observed me doing for last 11 months.<p>wifty...Is it normal human behaviour to use JUSTIFICATIONS to escape guilt?<p>snl...Yes, applying the first order definition... but it is not healthy, and the goal should be to demonstrate that to folks, so they will be receptive to developing analytical (as opposed to rationalization) skills. It bemuses me when I am accused of justification, I couldn't justify something if my life depended on it... I am way way to honest with myself, maybe even dysfunctionally honest if that is possible..... And in that narrow sense, justification to my fellow human beings, I really could care less (so to speak) what anyone thinks of my "choices" in life, I recognize that as the antithesis of self-determination, I do not seek approval from anyone, never have, never will, it is an empty benefit....what I do seek is validation, agree with me, or disagree with me, but plz be brutally honest, that is what I seek.

snl said
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>There are very specific reasons for every single thing human beings do<hr></blockquote><p>yet later said that guilt was a useless emotion. <p>You can't have it both ways. If guilt were a useless emotion, there would have been no selective advantage to it. I believe that guilt is an extremely useful emotion; you are right that it is a signal that we are violating internal constraints - and without that signal the human race would be in far worse shape than it is.

Whoa Nellie!!!<p>
[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
SNL,<p>How do you determine if an emotion is useless?<p>
who<p>
BTW, I think you're wrong about "HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO ME?" I think your aversion to guilt prevents you from seeing it for what it really is. We're not trying to control you with that, we just got hurt and are asking what you're going to do about it. I'm sure everyone here has asked that question in one form or another. Every BS isn't manipulative right? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

ok, ok you two, pick me apart...should have said mostly useless, and often destructive, and missapplied, but in that one specific instance, getting your attention, therein lies it's purpose....however, once attention gotten, you must decide whether the guilt is appropriate, or adverse conditioning....and in any event, you should NEVER do anything with guilt as your reason....that is a misuse of the emotion.<p>wifty...BTW, I think you're wrong about "HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO ME?" I think your aversion to guilt prevents you from seeing it for what it really is. We're not trying to control you with that, <p>snl...let me clarify, I am saying guilt is self-applied, you can try to get someone to feel guilty (not a good strategy IMO), but you cannot make them feel guilty, or visit guilt upon them (well unless you are on a jury I guess [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) and my aversion to guilt is cause it is a waste of finite emotional/psychological resources, and seriously interferes with problem solving.<p>wifty... we just got hurt and are asking what you're going to do about it. I'm sure everyone here has asked that question in one form or another. Every BS isn't manipulative right? <p>snl...I have no problem with that, every ws (for the most part, excepting extreme abuse marriages) has an obligation to explain themself, and enter with bs a reasonable effort to unravel what happened.... I don't think this cause it is right, I think it cause it is the correct path for the best mental health of both parties... (the standard I apply to most of my reasoning).<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

actually, I should state this more strongly nellie, you are correct, guilt is a very important trip wire, and an integral part of species survival, I guess my issue is it is used to much as a weapon, or end in itself, and people do not do the work (changing, or adhereing to internal paradigms) and instead try to get away from the guilt.

Interesting - When I talk with the minister this Sunday, I will ask about the guilt and what it is used for, and what guilt accomplishes. And why some don't feel guilt or remorse. And of course I will ask the quesiton of extramarital sex and it is normal. Interesting SNL - but you are still in the FOGGG! Would be nice to see you work on your marriage as much as you work here on the boards. Your wife is hurting, and crying.