My husband has had multiple affairs. I threw him out after I found out about the most recent one, then had second thoughts and tried to get him to come back. Now, after a month separation, he wants to come back. I've essentially plan B'd right from the start and I don't know if the real possibility of actually losing me finally hit him, or if the OW has had enough of him and wants him out of her place. It's also possible that he wants to come back so he can continue to have his cake and eat it too. After so many lies what am I to believe? He says he knows what he wants now -- he wants me and his kids. He's agreed to go to counseling, both individual and couples. The problem is -- he wants to move back in and I am not prepared for that. But if I don't allow him to move back in, he'll have to keep staying with the other woman and so he told me if I don't let him move back, it's the same as saying goodbye. He says if I let him move back, he'll end it with her.<p>Please, I desperately need advice! I've given him so many chances, I don't trust him, and I'm healing. But I also don't feel that we've done everything to save our marriage (we've never been to counseling) and now that he seems to be willing to also work to save it, I want to give him another chance. Part of me wonders, though, if I'm just giving him another chance to hurt me. He also kept saying "I can't do this without you". And then in the next breath tells me how I don't have any compassion and have never supported him (true). If that's the case, why does he think I can help him now?<p>I'm so confused. I thought this was what I wanted, but now that I'm faced with it, I really wonder if I'm not better off just letting him stay gone.

On a previous thread you mentioned your H is a "sex addict". Is this what you think is going on? Compulsive sexual encounters over a long period of time? Does he have a history of chronic anxiety symptoms, or a persistent history with porn?<p>I think it is importanty to know if H is a sex addict or not. Or ANY type of addict for that matter.<p>Pepper<p>[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

Well, I let my H come home on the promise to do all of that stuff and he got here and never followed through and now I am very sorry.<p>Can you talk to him and problem solve a way for him to stay out of the house, not be with OW and begin to make the changes nesessary to recover? Counseling etc? If he is not willing to put a little effort into it now, when he wants something,I am afraid he will see how easy it is to manipulate you and do as he pleases.<p>I know it is a risk, but if he doesnt want to make any sacrifises now, it doesnt look that good for the sacrifices necessary for recovery.

I suspect he is a sex addict. I asked him tonight to admit he was. He said he wouldn't admit he was, but he also wasn't saying he wasn't. He says just because I read something on the internet doesn't mean it applies to him. I'm hoping that if we get into counseling together it might become more clear to him that he is. He did tell me he wants to have a "normal" relationship with me and he doesn't want to cheat on me anymore, but if he doesn't get help he will.

My thoughts exactly, Lora. He kept insisting that by refusing to let him back into the house, I was effectively throwing him into the other woman's arms, since he doesn't have enough money to get a place on his own. I suggested to him that if he wanted to get a place of his own, we could sit down and figure out a way to do so. But then he started going on about how I told him I needed every cent just to get by (see how our little fibs come back to haunt us!) and then accused me of f***ing him.

Seems like he is still playing too much of the blame game, so if you dont let him move in you are forcing him to be with OW and then the whole thing is your fault.<p>How about point out that you would be willing to make some sacrifices to help him live on his own for awhile. Because you are willing to give this some effort. What is he willing to do? What is his plan for recovery? How does he plan to rebuild trust? Ask the hard questions now, so You can see if he has give any thought to it or is only concerned with his comfort.

It sounds to me like your H is pulling some major guilt trips on you. Don't buy into them. You've become a better person now.<p>As the others have suggested, do NOT let him back in the house until he can prove himself to you beforehand. There are too many of us on here who jumped into the recovery of our M, and missed out on a lot of the important boundaries we had thought so long and hard for.<p>You said that you basically went into plan B mode when he was out of the house this last time. Did that include a plan B letter? If so, then go back to it, and it will plainly outline what YOU need from him before he can come home. <p>If you haven't done a plan B letter, then perhaps coming up with a boundaries letter for him now would be appropriate? Writing things out can make it MUCH easier to see clearly, not to mention it helps to avoid making emotion-based decisions.<p>Karen

I know what you mean about guilt trips. I feel so totally manipulated! I didn't write a Plan B letter, Plan B just kind of happened on its own. The first week I sent him a couple of letters asking him to come back. Then on Valentine's Day (after he called and yelled at me), I wrote a long rambling letter which seems to have scared him a bit. <p>The idea about telling him I'm willing to make some sacrifices might work. I can get by on way less for groceries than what I told him.<p>Any thoughts on letting him come back here to live, but making him sleep on the couch? I'm also concerned that if I let him come back, I lose the advantage I have in being able to claim infidelity if I decide to file for divorce.<p>To be honest, this whole thing has thrown me for a loop -- I did not expect him to want to try to reconcile.

Well, I hope this doesn't sound cruel ... but, here goes:<p>I'm not hearing the tone of a WH who sincerely wants to "reconcile" ..... I think you're describing someone looking for a place to stay, and "talking the talk" of reconciliation but not demonstrating his readiness to "walk the walk". Reconciliation takes WORK and humility. "Then on Valentines Day he called and yelled at me" .... does not sound like the behavior of a man ready to reconcile. (sorry [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>Are you worried about STD's? Do you still have sex with him?<p>I am sorry for your pain.<p>Pepper

Pepperband, Not cruel, just plain-speaking! Which is what I need. His sudden turn around really surprised me -- on Monday he was telling me I had to get used to the idea of him taking our kids over to the other woman's house and then on Thursday he says he wants to move back in! I think I want to be the OW for a while -- let her deal with all the trouble of having to live with him and let me get to have the fun!<p>I am worried about STDs, and know I need to make a doctor's appointment. One of my biggest failings is I think if I ignore a problem, it will go away. Hasn't worked for me so far, but I keep trying anyway. Having to actually be tested for such things, while I know it's necessary, is also so absolutely horrifying I just can't wrap my mind around it.

Don't fret too much over getting tested for STD's. To the best of my knowledge, there are two different ones needed. 1) blood test and 2) pap smear. <p>You won't know any answers until you get the tests done. The sooner they're done, the sooner you'll have one less thing to worry about. And if all is well, it'll be a non-issue at that point.<p>This is a good reminder to me too... I want to get tested again. In my case, I know that my H hasn't been with anyone since I last got tested, but I just want to make sure (especially for the blood HIV, which should be taken every 6 months for a while - not sure how many years to be honest).<p>Karen

Sleeping on a problem really does help. I'm now pretty clear in my mind what I need to do. In the midst of the "drama" last night I totally forgot about the $1000 I gave him from the stock proceeds. So, he has $1000 which will get him a room somewhere for at least 3 months, maybe longer. The whole point of giving him that money was so he could "get on his feet".<p>I still want to save my marriage. I still want him and us to go to counseling -- if nothing else at least then I can rest in my own mind that I have done everything possible to save my marriage, but not at the expense of my sanity or my children's respect. But he doesn't act like somebody who wants to make their marriage work. He gives me platitudes and then has a mini-tantrum when I don't give in. He tells me in one breath how he can't do this without me and yet then tells me I never supported him, I'm not compassionate, I'm not affectionate and I COULD LEARN SOMETHING FROM THE OTHER WOMAN! He actually tried to make me feel sorry for her by telling me that if he left her to come back to me it would hurt HER! Maybe it would hurt her, but it hurts me more that he can't see that I really don't care one iota for a woman who knowingly went out with my husband and then "took him in" when I threw him out. <p>He acts like somebody who has gotten himself into a real bind and now is reacting in the only way he has for the last 15 years -- appealling
to my good nature and belief that two people who stood up and said "till death do us part" should honor those vows. But to give him the benefit of the doubt also, he may not know any other way TO behave. If the other woman wants to end it with him or he's realized she's not what he thought and that is why he is so desperate to move back home, I refuse to be his port in the storm. He'll only cheat on me again. <p>You're advice is so helpful. The only way to move forward from here is for him to make
some sacrafices himself and show me that he is willing to face the HARD WORK that its going to take to actually save this marriage. He can talk about changing all he wants, now he needs to prove it. And if he's not willing to make those sacrafices without me giving in to him first, well, he's not worth my time. <p>Please pray for me, I can use all the help I can get. I'm committed now and I did stand up to him on the phone yesterday (I can't imagine how upset he must have been when I didn't do what he expected me to!) but I'm afraid he'll catch me in a moment of weakness or dazzle me with his lies and manipulations and I'll cave. I've done it before. I'm still very much attached to him and that worries me.

Dedex,<p>First you'll have to decide whether you want to work on this marriage or not. If you don't, you may as well file for divorce now while the guy's out of the house. If you do want to give it a shot, which is what I'm hearing, then put everything you've got into it. Don't go falling between two stools.<p>If you are going to give it a shot, unlike other people on this thread, I think it's a lousy idea to send your H off to live on his own, and a waste of good money to boot. For three reasons.<p>One, what's your main complaint about him? Infidelity. What do you want him to do? Rebuild your trust in him, on that issue particularly. Yet I don't see how exactly he's going to do that while he's living apart from you. How are you going to know whether he's in or out, who he's out with, whether he's looking at porn or engaging in cybersex, who he's talking to on the phone, who's sleeping in his bed, and the rest of it? If somebody can explain that to me I'll be willing to concede that there's some point to this arrangement. Otherwise it's setting an impossible task for both of you. Where is it written that if he gives up his OW he can't come home? Not on this site. With him at home, at least you know what he's doing when he's there.<p>Two, as Pepper says, this doesn't sound like a guy who's groveling on his knees begging to come back and vowing to go through fire, water, and hailstorms to do it. That doesn't mean he's not willing to try. So it's up to you whether you want to try with him or not. But if you do, you're not dealing yet with a highly motivated guy. You're not in a strong position yourself. That means you'd better put some bait out and play this fish, keep him hooked. I don't see how you're going to continue motivating him by meeting any of his ENs if he's not even living with you. Without that, I'd expect the freedom of living on his own to be too much of a temptation for him to stray again. Next time he might stray permanently. If that's going to happen, you might as well divorce him now and done with it.<p>Three, why is he vacillating so much, and so likely to stray again? Now I can't tell whether he's a "sex addict" or not, though I admit he must have some problems, given his childhood. "Addiction" may or may not be one of them. What I am hearing though is that your H does not trust you either. If you don't trust him sexually, he doesn't trust you emotionally. And you both agree on the cause of this. He doesn't trust you to have compassion, to empathize with him. He doesn't trust you to express your own feelings openly to him either. That's part of that "fiery woman" thing he talks about. It's also a result of your codependency. Codependency, pace Harley, has a toxic side in marriage. Along with that, if he's a liar himself, he can't trust you not to tell him fibs of your own either. There's withholding on both sides of this marriage, and it's a far cry from what's called here "radical honesty." Perversely too, even if you do withhold a lot of your feelings from him, he doesn't trust you not to LB either. And he doesn't trust you to continue "being extra-special nice" after one of these twice-yearly blowups. Not even as nice as you are with everyone else!<p>Who starts that downhill cycle between two partners is a futile chicken-and-egg debate. The point is to reverse it. But here's something you told us:<p>He also kept saying "I can't do this without you". And then in the next breath tells me how I don't have any compassion and have never supported him (true). If that's the case, why does he think I can help him now?<p>I don't see anything inconsistent in what he said. He wants compassion and support. And he wants it from you. He's also saying he never got it from you in the past. So he wants you to change. He wants you to start giving it to him. He thinks you could, and that's why he thinks you could help him now.<p>It seems to me that this would only be puzzling if you believed that you can't help him simply because you never could before: that you can't change. If that's true, you're acting like a victim, love. Being passive, saying "I can't do it," instead of getting up and asking "How do I do it?" I'm guessing that's one of the things he's disappointed with, when he wants a "fiery woman," a "can-do" and "will-do" woman.<p>I'm hearing that this is a major complaint of his, that he never got adequate emotional support from you. When he says he's "dead inside," never mind "yada-yada-yada" and "I've heard it all before," I'd believe him. That's a result of lacking emotional support. After nearly fifteen years of marriage, this guy finally worked up the courage to trust you, his wife, with a secret he'd never dared to tell anyone before, one of the most shameful things that anyone, especially a man, can divulge: that he was sexually abused as a child. And homosexually at that, which is worse. He tried to trust you, and I hear that what he got back was emotional inadequacy, horror, and just as bad, disbelief: invalidation. That's what I mean by "he doesn't trust you emotionally." What's more, even if he is a liar, lack of acceptance could well contribute to his lying. "Radical honesty" calls for "radical acceptance," if you like.<p>I'm sorry if I have to be blunt about this. It's not an issue of blame. It's simply one of inevitable cause and effect. If X happens, then Y will result. If I were getting that kind of reaction from my partner when I tried to share sensitive disclosures, then I'd be looking for another woman too. You're at risk of a EA if not a PA. So I can't be sure if your H is a sex addict or not, because it looks as if he's already got a reason to seek other women for intimacy, emotional trust and support he can't find at home. If sex usually comes with that package, then sex is part of intimacy for men too.<p>Anyway it's your choice. Maybe he's got problems of his own apart from that, or maybe you can't (or don't want to) give him what he needs, and maybe you don't want to try. If not, get a divorce. But if you do want to try, then you've got to go for it. No half measures. He doesn't want your cynicism. He wants your action. You'll have to pull your finger out and learn how to give him the support he needs, to build an emotional trust that was never there before. That also means dealing with your own issues and whatever has been stopping you from doing this. You'll want to do that some time anyway, because it's necessary personal growth, and if you don't deal with it your next relationship is likely to fail for the same reason--assuming you want one. So you may as well do it now. And there's no way you can rebuild his trust in you--indeed, you won't even have anyone to practice your skills on--if he's off living somewhere else. So for that proposal, I say three strikes and it's out.<p>What was the reason for it anyway? That "if you let him come back, you lose the advantage you have in being able to claim infidelity if you decide to file for divorce"? Sorry, that's the worst of reasons. It's sticking one foot in the divorce court when you need to be fully committed to working at the marriage. It fosters distrust when you need to rebuild his trust as well. That's another symptom of withholding commitment and setting yourself up to fail. Anyway if he did stray again you'd have new grounds for a claim, so why worry?<p>Besides, he made a major concession to you, a constructive one, the one he needed to make, about going to counseling. It's your turn to make one too, not to continue withholding from him. He set a good example. Follow it.<p>The only valid reason I can see for keeping him out is that you're "not ready for him to come home." What that translates to is that this isn't a matter of his "proving himself" in some way. It's a matter of you getting in shape to do the work you need to do with him. But if you think that's going to take a while, there's a risk he'll just slip away, as I said. If you do want a marriage, you've got work to do together; he does too. So I'd say get going and put up with it; you can deal with the fallout in counseling.<p>As for confusion, that's about inability to predict the future. The way to resolve that problem is to make a decision anyway, stick with it and see what happens. So if you want a divorce, why not get one now? You'll survive. But I agree with you that if the two of you have never systematically worked on this marriage, and on yourselves, you'll never know if it could have succeeded. So if you want to stay married, decide on that and stick with that instead. It will take a while. But if you do, watch out for the naysayers and the Dismal Desmonds and the Doubting Thomasinas. They'll only get in your way and trip you up.<p>Along with some very good advice, I am seeing negativity in places on these threads. Failure stories may make you feel fearful of failure and discourage you from putting your best effort into making it work, "just in case." They can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've seen dismissal of your husband's "fiery woman" remark as a "smoke screen." That's encouraging you to reject what he says instead of finding out what he means and what he needs. If you do, he won't trust you to listen to him. He needs to learn to listen to you acceptingly as well. I'm hearing accusations that he's "guilting" you and all kinds of things. But you can't stop him from doing that, so this is only about blaming him, which is futile, and only makes you and him angrier at one another. Never mind what he's "doing wrong"; just do what you need to do instead. The same goes for "feeling manipulated" because he's vacillating. Sure, you "feel" manipulated, but that's all subjective. It doesn't mean in the least that he's trying to manipulate you. It's not about you; it's about him. He's vacillating because he's uncertain himself, with good reason. If you sit around saying "I feel manipulated" and getting upset about that, that won't help you, or him. It's acting like a victim. Never mind what he does; get up and lead.<p>The same goes for your IC. Watch her. She may help you and make you feel better, but she shouldn't be doing it at the expense of blaming your husband or detracting from the work on your marriage. That won't get you anywhere. You already know she's tried to blame your H for personality traits you've had since high school. Some of these ICs do that, especially if they're into codependency and the like. They can sabotage your efforts at marriage building. Some of them will tell you to "protect your feelings" from getting hurt again. But if you don't risk that, you won't have a marriage. Likewise, I may (or may not!) be forgiven for suspecting that encouragement to "make your husband prove himself" before he can come back has less to do with what he needs, or even what you need, and more to do with venting anger on him and punishing him. By all means draw your boundaries with him, but don't LB.<p>So don't forget the cheese. If you don't know what cheese I'm talking about, you'll find it right here. This is the book Zorweb mentioned, under its former title.<p>And good luck! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
"Risk all--or gain nothing."
- Geoffroi de Charny, Livre de Chevalerie (c.1352)

Wow, Eddystone. Thanks for the thought-provoking post. It made me look at things from a different perspective, which was really helpful. I see I really have two choices here: I can just accept divorce or I can take the olive branch my husband has offered, regardless of his reasons for offering it, and do my best to make this marriage work.

I still don't quite know what to do -- but I finally got my copy of Codependent No More and just reading the intro and the first couple of case histories, I see a lot of myself there. <p>I know what I *want* to do (allow my husband to come home) and I know what, logically, I *should* do (file for divorce). Since I have a tendency to be compulsive, I'm afraid if I file for divorce without exploring even the slim possibility that my husband is sincere, I will obsess on "what could have been" and spend the rest of my live among the walking wounded.<p>And while I've been stewing and stewing over this, my husband hasn't even called. But see, I think this is a lot of our problem -- he told me the ball was in my court and I didn't have to make a decision right away. That's how we left it. I now expect him to call me and ask me for that decision -- but I lived with the man for over 14 years, I should know he won't swallow his pride and call, he basically told me the next move is mine. I, on the other hand, want to force him into some action to show he cares for me by not calling him so he has to call me. We keep this up, and nobody calls anybody and things just get worse. <p>So I took a step, burned him my own CD and wrote him a note telling him we need to talk face to face, without saying "yes you can come back" or "I'm filing for divorce". We'll see how our talk goes.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dedex1:
<strong> I will obsess on "what could have been" and spend the rest of my live among the walking wounded.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>That's exactly why following the MB principles is such a great opportunity. No matter what the outcome is, you will always know that you tried your best, and have become a better person all around. It allows for closure and growth. Who could ask for more? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Let us know how the meeting with your H goes.<p>Karen

hmm, it sure doesn't sound to me like he is ready to commit to your marriage if he is threatening to live with the OW if you won't let him come back home. I can almost assure you that his desire to move home is strictly a matter of convenience on his part, rather than a newly found committment to you on his part and that if he does come home it will simply be more of the same. <p>If he is really committed to repairing the marriage then he should be willing to do what it takes to repair it, and that is MOVING out of the OW's place, into his own place, and going into counseling for as long as it takes to restore the marriage. <p>His threat to stay with the OW if you don't let him come back home tells me that he is not serious about repairing anything and you will soon be back where you started. Don't fall for his insincere games.

Well, I did talk to him on the phone today. My daughter had called him and then he wanted to talk to me and asked if he could watch our 4 year old on Friday. I told him I had sent him something (I'm a bit concerned that the OW might trash it) and he wanted to know what it was. I hadn't planned to talk to him on the phone again, but often it seems we try so hard just to communicate to each other that we don't know how to say "goodbye". It's amazing how bad we are at it -- he came away from our last conversation with: I didn't want him back, I was perfectly happy without him and I didn't miss him. When what I meant was: I want you back, but I'm afraid and so you have to prove to me you want me. We had a good talk this time, though. <p>It's weird -- he keeps telling me how great his OW is, but I don't think he loves her. He told me she feels more deeply for him than he does for her. And how she's not "evil" and would let him go if that is what he wanted. Maybe he wants to be a cakeman again or maybe he honestly wants to try to get me to start meeting all his needs, because he knows I can. And there are some needs that, at least so far, only I can meet -- primarily, I am very intellegent and most of the woman he gravitates to seem to lack that quality. <p>The thing that is really throwing me off, is that he doesn't seem to display the fog symptoms that alot of other WS do. He doesn't seem to be undecided between me and the OW, it seems he does want *me*, but given our history, he doesn't want to get back into the same situation we were in. I do know the fog, because I saw it in him the last time we separated (he was in love with that woman).<p>Of course, it could be that he's decided his current OW just isn't suitable and so he figures he'll come back to me until he finds another. <p>The bottom line is, I will never know unless I give him a chance. I probably shouldn't give him any more -- but unless I do, I won't know. And worst case -- he doesn't change and we end it. So by giving him a chance, I'm not really giving anything up, because divorce is still an option. I just need to keep doing the things I'm now doing to improve myself and take care of my own issues, if nothing else, I'm gradually starting to see how truly f***ed up I am.<p>He's coming over Friday and agreed to talk then. So we'll see.

Well, I discounted pretty much everyone's advice and allowed my husband to move back in. On Friday, after talking for over 3 hours and pretty much coming to the conclusion that he was going to move back in, he starting getting ready to leave (it was close to 9:00 pm). At that point, I told him that if he left then all bets were off and that it was unacceptable to me that we agree to get back together and then he goes off and spends the night with his girlfriend. He was pretty upset at that and said "so you want me to do to her what I did to you" and that he was "tired of screwing people over". I told him bluntly that someone was going to be screwed over and it was his choice who it was, but the situation demanded that someone was going to be hurt. Since she doesn't have a phone, he couldn't even call her. I was prepared right then for him to walk out, and to be honest I suspected he would and a part of me was even hoping he would. But he didn't. We had a good weekend together and did a bit of talking. We have a long way to go.<p>My biggest concern right now is *her*. He never did go over to her place and get his stuff and is supposed to be doing that now (before work). I've expressed a concern that she's not going to let him go so easily and while he disagrees with his words, I think by his actions he's also a bit worried about this. She works for the same company, but a different store. Saturday night, we got a hang-up call from his store, he freaked out. (We have caller id and so didn't answer the phone, although if I had known it was her, I probably would have). Last night we got an "unknown call" at 10:30 (again we didn't answer), whoever it was stayed on the line for about 60 seconds before hanging up. We also found out this morning that she called his store last night looking for him.<p>I don't know if I did the right thing, but I do know that I feel easier in my heart and mind now than I have for the past month.<p>Wish us luck!

I forgot to add -- Saturday morning we were talking and my husband said he wanted to get another pet (our dog had died in July) and I told him that I had thought about getting him a sun conure for Christmas, but by the time the thought had crossed my mind I didn't have enough money left. So we talked a bit about birds and how we would like to have another one (we've had cockatiels and a very large cockatoo). Then when discussing what we want to do for the day, my husband suggests we go to some breeders and check out what they had to offer. We went and looked Saturday, came home and did some research on the net on the breeds available and on Sunday we became the proud parents of a sweet, beautiful baby green-cheaked conure who is at this point nameless. <p>Are we insane or what?