Zorweb,<p>Did I miss something? I had pretty much decided to stop posting to honey because of her vicious overreaction to BR but I didn't see where she attacked me like she did BR. I know some people like to hear nice words and justification of thier sorry behavior and I am just not up to that job.<p>Have I missed something? Thanks for the defense, by the way.

I have gone on and on, as it seems mysimple points have not been understood and are still not by those who choose to ignore them.<p>Thanks BR, for sharing more of your story... I agree with much of it, and it helps me see where you are coming from... the only word or point in it this time I do not like is your calling me "sick". You too said.. you once said... you were angry with people who were too tough with you. <p>I doubt you have it all right yet. I think coming here just to give advise is a little self serving actually... yes it can be giving, but who are you to say you know more than me...? I too havelived with an alcoholic for 11 years, and I have known him 17... I have lots of time in alanon, and all kinds of other help groups... i am a very smart , educated individual dealing with a sick alcoholic... and yes it has hurt me a lot, and yes the whole situation has been awful... and had I not gotten so intimately involved with an alcoholic who has hurt to me in many unblieveable ways... then... i would of never been in these messy situations..<p>Your input does help...when it is not hurtful.<p>I tried to make simple points...<p>1. I do not think name calling or putting others down helps.<p>2. I do not think know it all attitudes help.<p>THis is how I feel, I do not ask for kid gloves or self validation, that is a bunch of hog wash... never did... <p>I just have a problem with super tough, harsh, haughty posters... I found this in alanon before myself... and left those meetings.. and got away from those poeple...<p>I now think my name here is being associated with a lot of ideas that I never expressed.. and that some posters seem to think I am thinking by my posts... I am not asking for validation only... give me a break? I have asked for opinions, and help... I just did not come here to be hurt.<p>TO CLARIFY<p>I like feedback... I am growing, I am not posting as much about my kudos and good things as the bad... WHo says I haven't learned a thing here? WHo says I haven't taken any advice...? How is that known just because I still had a setback? <p>I have not had an issue with one word of any posters feedback... except br's and since it occurred multiple times... I raised the point- my point was agreed with.<p>This is not a personal attack on BR... <p>It is just a BR, maybe you need to be less harsh kind of idea... but others seem to think that is... oh, honey... you just want self validation and pats on the back??? WRONG< WRONG< and More WRONG.<p>This is silly. I sd NO NAME CALLING PUT DOWNS< or haughty,,, I am right you are wrong attitudes... I got that... LOUD and CLEAR... <p>Maybe on the day all this started IT was just way too harsh for where I was at, OK?<p>And yes, guess I am getting a bit like SNL in the debating here... but I am trying to get my point across and not leave the boards.<p>BR, I am sorry if this issue hurt you.... that was not my intention.. I was hoping you could take my constructive criticism and perhaps be a little less harsh and a little more open minded yourself? OK? Maybe I am not the only one who needs to change? I am sure other poeple would also be hurt by your words.<p>I think you are giving to try to help others. .. but wrong to think you know so much more than others... sure... you might have some help ful ideas... and many are appreciated... just keep it at that... NOT, "WHY DID YOU NOT READ MY POSTS CAREFULLY ENOUGTH" that is haughty and that is annoying... maybe I was in too much pain to memorize your post... OK?<p>I just don't think this is getting any one anywhere... and it does not seem br wants to give at all on her tough love approach or admit that she was too harsh... well, I am sure... your H would not like it if you were so tough on him... and callign him on his every wrong... does that give a safe place to fall? NO? and that makes this place for me unsafe... and that is why I am continuing to try to defend my point... as many do not seem to even see my point anymore... <p>I do not even care, and I am again rethinking posting here.<p>Have a great day! this is just too much!

Great post, BR and everyone... but we are beating our heads against a brick wall here. I suggest we just give up and quit giving her this attention or quit trying to smooth things over. It doesn't look like it is going to happen!<p>Best of luck with your life and marriage Honey...<p>[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Susan ]</p>

Honey, <p>I wrote some of this on another thread about this but I thought it needed to be said again.<p>My point was before you or anyone jumps on someone, understand where they are coming from.
For people who have been here a long time, our stories are not always out there for you to see
This is not a newbie vs. old-timers or any type of clique, BR has good advice, but it might not apply to you, <p>One of these things about message boards take what you want & throw the rest out.
I will say some of the best advice I got was when I 1st posted here, I only got 2 or 3 replies (someone who was a regular had a major crises) I didn't take the advice, looking back I wish I had, I might have saved myself months of heartache & my OS what damage might I have prevented, if I had acted on that advice but I can't change the past. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=006068<p>A year ago (Feb-June) I was on here wkly if not daily crying New Beginning, Wat, OOOO, Still Hers, Orchid, Exhausted, Rick37, Cleopatra & others kept me from losing my mind.
I don't give lots of advice because my STBX did finally leave me, so I feel I may encourage BS to give up before they should, I would love to spare both BS, WS & yes even the OP the months of pain I went through. <p>That is all anyone here wants to do is help & try to spare just one person a minute of the pain that we have gone through. Remember we are or have been in great pain.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>the only word or point in it this time I do not like is your calling me "sick".<hr></blockquote><p>Do you get offended when someone says: "You have a cold!" when you are clearly displaying the symptoms?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>1. I do not think name calling or putting others down helps.<hr></blockquote><p>I don't mean sick as an insult. I mean that you have been seriously affected by the disease of alcoholism. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You too said.. you once said... you were angry with people who were too tough with you. <hr></blockquote><p>Yes, and I also said that I was wrong and they were right. And if I had listened sooner, my marriage might have repaired sooner. In fact my H flat out told me that he wanted our situation fixed 6 months after he moved out. But that I was so insane that he couldn't bear the thought of trying. It took me A YEAR after that to fix myself enough to encourage him to the point of making a committment to us again.<p>Let me put it this way: If you have a big booger on your face, and you don't know about it...do you want someone to hold up a mirror and tell you? Or do you want everyone to ignore it, and gush about how gorgeous you look?<p>Sure, you are filled with embarrassment when you are told...but geez...would you really want to have all those compliments that meant nothing instead - while you walked around unknowing how badly you were grossing everyone out?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2. I do not think know it all attitudes help.<hr></blockquote><p>And I think that you are mistaking confidence and success with a know-it-all attitude.<p>If you find different answers that saves your marriage and helps you become a better person, then I would enthusiastically read anything you had to say about the matter.<p>There are for example, many people over on the DivorceBusting website that have found it works for them. I tried it before MBs. My husband looked over their material. We both decided that it didn't work for us. That being said, I still think that there is a lot of value in that "answer". <p>But that answer isn't one that I know about. So I talk about what I do know about. I'd be silly to be advising people about something I had not practiced in my own life successfully, now wouldn't I?<p>What is abundantly clear is that you haven't found ANY answers yet. You are still living with multiple crisis, and are extremely unhappy. So all anyone, including myself, has said to you, is that maybe you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the advice of those who have been there, done that, and succeeded.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I just have a problem with super tough, harsh, haughty posters... I found this in alanon before myself... and left those meetings.. and got away from those poeple...<hr></blockquote><p>My experience in Al-Anon has been that the oldtimers who practice what I refer to as "hard-core" Al-Anon and who are living happy productive lives themselves, have the most valuable advice. Something else I have seen in Al-Anon is that many times, a newcomer enters the meeting, and introduces him/herself, only to say: I was in Al-Anon years ago, but I didn't like the message so I left. And now I can see that I was wrong.<p>Honey, I have 2 meetings near me. 1 meeting is full of very strong, confident, experienced 12-step practicing individuals. They are not afraid to say what they think, and share their recovery by explaining where they were, where they are now, and what they did to get there.<p>The other meeting barely knows what the Steps are, think that sponsors are unnecessary, rolls their eyes at the thought of the 12 Traditions, and have never seen any other literature than Courage to Change. That meeting is full of "soft gentle" messages. I first walked into that meeting 3 years ago. Those same people are still sitting in that room today, in the same place, with the same problems. They are still focused on their alcoholic. They are still offering each other hugs and comfort. And they are still unhappy.<p>I'm sorry that you left those meetings. From what I have seen of your response to others with solid substantial answers, I sadly sure that you turned your back on those who could have helped you the most.<p>No one here, least of all me, thinks you should leave these boards. What we do think is that instead of reacting to your pain and letting it control you, that you should work at getting control of your pain by choosing to ask for advice before acting, and by listening to those with more experience and not brushing off their advice when it doesn't fit into your very narrow ideas of an acceptable outcome.<p>Because that's what it all boils down to. You have a set outcome in mind, and you will only entertain certain ideas that get you to that specific outcome.<p>And in Al-Anon they will tell you that forced solutions never work.<p>I realize that you think I am on some huge ego stroke - one day, when you have finally reached a point of real recovery in your life, you will realize that sharing what works is one way of repaying the people who spent their time and effort on you.<p>You will also understand as I do, that helping others helps me stay on course with my own life and my own marriage. Many times the things that I have to tell people are the things that I needed to hear myself at that moment. Helping others helps me see how far I have come, and keeps me mindful of the things in my life that I have to be grateful for, especially those who weren't afraid to hurt me for my own benefit.<p>Anyway, this thread wasn't started as a Honey-bashing thread. You haven't hurt me - theres probably not much you could say or do that would hurt me - I don't know you. <p>Believe it or not, everyone that has replied on all of these related threads have been trying to help you. Including me. Everyone here wants to see you succeed. <p>Now after this post, I am done. I am not going to say anything to you again, so you'll have the freedom to say what you want, and I'm not going to argue or defend myself. I've said enough, and I've got other things to do, and other people who would appreciate my input.

HI BR, If you take the time to read... I am going to try to stick around... I do feel alot of people frowning on me now... and Yes, it hurts... I still was not trying to HURT you... I am glad to know I DID NOT>.. and I do apprciate your input... I think all of this talk has made me turn the corner - HONESTLY... I havew lb'd my spouse...alittle more because I did not come here and vent... which was helping me alot...<p>I do not want to be "sick" I do not want to do nutty things... or feel so angry.<p>I am still appalled at the way my spouse.. has treated me... and I am trying to recover.. since you have been in the "Alcoholic " situation and from what I think you sd still are... then... maybe your advise can help me... I can toughen my skin and have through these last few days.<p>I think you know how I think, but the whole point is way moot to me... about modes of commication and how tough to be... I do think it is a take what you like and throw out the rest attitude... kind of thing..<p>I first came here with the Name HONEY... I guess because I missed being HONEY, which I used to be.. to my H... I did want some love and validation, I guerss you guys are right... I needed that...<p>I changed my name today to restoringmymarriage... because I see this is really what I am here for.<p>All your long posts have taught me something , this discussion has taught me a lot.. thanks for being open to the repotoire...I am seriously exhausted at this point in my marriage... I am to the point of sickness with the things m y spouse does... I love my H, and it hurts like hell the things he has and is doing to me... and yes... I have acted like a 2 yr. old... but I do not like being told how awful I am... boohoo, I guess I am a baby... (really not... I am just having a hard time holding myself together... ) I havwe accomplished a whole lot since I came to this board.<p>I have moved from no job, to part time job, to now 2 jobs... 1 ft, and 1 pt and my pt busines... I have gotten back in alanon... I think BR, you prompted that... I have started feeling better about me... alot better.<p>When I first came here I cried constantly and could not even get out of bed... I was miserable..<p>I hurt my back very badly 2 yrs ago and that is a big part of this whole thing... part of what my h left me because of... so it really hurts to be in pain physically and then be in pain mentally and have no help[... around the house and with kids.. when it hurts to bend over, do dishes... etc.. pick up after my 3 yr... old.. here I go again with my poor me... but I am soorry I am whiningg here - I really am... tears are running down my face now.<p>I AM A STRONG person, believe it or not... I hate to ask for help... I try to put on that I can do it face to my family and friends.. and they see a whole lot less of this pathetic me than you guys have... maybe I am afraid of them bahsing me... or thinking less of me... I used to tell everything to my H, but feeling like he does not love me anymore.. at least not as he once did ... I feel so alone..<p>I came here brutally honest.. and feel that I have made a fool of myself... basically walked around with the boogers on my face for the whole world to see.. how stupid is that? But this has been the biggest pain I have ever had... I know a lot of you know how it feels and believe me I appreciate everything everyone has done.<p>I want to change from the reactive crzy nut, I have been acting like..<p>I have not acted like this the whole time... I have improved drastically... I am not going crzy over my H's place to live anymore... my anger has died down alot and alot thanks to you people... I feel like a fool<p>I am sorry br... I really am... your words did hurt.. and maybe that is what I needed... I guess I have to quit being the fool... I just wish I had more friends... I really am hurting a lot , this board has helped me so much.<p>Those of you who have helped me, br, yes, you included... I never meant for anyone to think... you did not..<p>I think I am jsut so confused... I am / was... or at times blow up and act like a caged , corned tiger... that is really tame and all the sudden goes wild because of all the pain... maybe I am a jeckyl hyde.. I do not know.<p>I uesed to be happy, I used to have hope and joby... I still do have some... but I am just so tireed o f hurting.. so tired... at times I just can't be patient anymore.<p>It is amazing that my H is not seeing the ow, we have dated, and he has even expressed a desire to work things out.. but it is always touch and go, yes no maybe... and his alcoholism , oh that is another book.<p>I am sorry if I have hogged the boards.. I guess I am jsut ultra passtionate about all of this.<p>I have been in alot of hurt.<p>OK< about the alanon... I went to meetings where people guided me to leave my H... years ago... I did... I left him.. they told me to... I trhink they took it too far.. because that in a sense started some of the troubles we are in today... we were seperated for 10 months once before and my H felt betrayed... etc... and very angry... I left becuase of the drinking and his bad treatment of me... anyway.. it did seem a little tough love - but I was actually on the pohone with a girl.. alanon.. person who told me to start packing boxes... alaonon people came over and packed up the rest of my house... so you can see I have some other alanon issues... it was probably not the best method.. BUT I AM NOT Looking for softies.. or validation... <p>
as I did thin k about my name choice, etc... I see that I did want some lvoe and kicks in the pants... was not to my liking... but I too, know what it is like to have real friends who are brutally honest.. and I am usually one of those... <p>anyway... I am rambling and crying.. I have house work to do.. maybe I am learning.<p>I do appreciate your posts.. br, I hope you will feel welcome to offer advise when you can to me... and I will not start any blame game again... I really thought you might see my point.. maybe somewhere you did ? Maybe I was just totatlly wrong... who knows... <p>But I see you are ahead of me in this affair business anyway, and with an alcoholic... ?? so I would liek your advise.. and will jsut stiffen my lip when it hurts, K?<p>GOt to go take care of my kids and my house.<p>Take care, RestoringMyMarrige - that is what I am here for!!!

Well, it truly seems pointless to reply to Honey. No type of advice is good enough. She's very defensive, very touchy. Seems to me that since she can't get her H to respond the way she'd like, then she comes on this board to bash others who don't respond the way she wants them to instead. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

Could we just be done with this now and close out this thread.<p>Everyone it seems has had their say in the manner.<p>I don't believe that there will be a winner in any of this, in actuality we are all losing as we are here reading and posting, instead of posting to those that might truly need our help and will take the advice that is offered.<p>So will one or the other get in the last word? Probably if they insist on continuing this thread. But we will all be the winner if this is allowed to be the last post on this thread and I so hope that it is!!!<p>Good bye! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Good morning Honey ~<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I think all of this talk has made me turn the corner - HONESTLY... I havew lb'd my spouse...alittle more because I did not come here and vent... which was helping me alot...<hr></blockquote><p>I am truly glad if something that someone has said in the last few days has gotten through to you. <p>You still should vent here - that's not the problem. The problem is that you have been coming here to vent AFTER you react. When something upsets you, do NOTHING. Walk away. Come here and vent, and then ask what you should do. By the time you have written out your anger...and had some time to cool down, and read responses from people who aren't so emotionally involved...you'll be able to take action on the advice you are offered.<p>Being angry is not wrong. It's a healthy alarm system that lets you know when boundaries are being violated or that perhaps something in your own thinking is out of whack. Either which way, anger simply IS. It's your choice to react in a kneejerk fashion, or to release that anger in a healthy way. <p>Can you get a punching bag? I'm not kidding, if you can get something to punch when you are angry..take it out that way. Run, scream, punch a bag, journal, etc...but let it out, but do not let it out at your H.<p>You see...that's how the rule of protection works. YOU are responsible for protecting your spouse from your anger and from your other weaknesses.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I am still appalled at the way my spouse.. has treated me...<hr></blockquote><p>Instead of focusing on HIM and what he has done to you (victim mentality) - try to focus on what YOU have done to YOU. How have you treated yourself? You should be appalled at how you have treated yourself!!!! You can't control what your H is doing, but you can change how you treat yourself. That is something you can fix!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> since you have been in the "Alcoholic " situation and from what I think you sd still are... then... maybe your advise can help me... I can toughen my skin and have through these last few days.<hr></blockquote><p>Both of my grandfathers were raging alcoholics. My parents are not, but they are to this day, still extremely dysfunctional codependents, and so passed the effects of their disease on to me. I have several alcoholic aunts and uncles. I have several alcoholic siblings. I am married into an alcoholic family with an alcoholic husband. Heck, even my business partner is a recovering alcoholic from a raging alcoholic family. I'm surrounded by the disease in every direction!<p>I guess what I am saying is that I do understand the craziness that life takes on while living in close proximity with the disease. I've finally learned how to be happy, regardless of what my spouse is/was doing. When I stopped allowing my H so much power over my happiness and serenity, when I learned to focus on ME, then everything started to fall into place.<p>I see that you have accomplished alot since you started here. But you aren't finished yet, not if you want to survive this.<p>I do understand where you are at. During the summer of 2000, I was pregnant with 2 other children, in a newly purchased home, with only the help of my inlaws who lived an hour away. My H was off on vacations and weekends with his girlfriend, and couldn't be bothered about what he was doing to me, while I was struggling to manage on my own. How embarrasing it was when my neighbor came over and took the lawn mower out of my hands, scolding me for mowing the lawn in my condition and wanting to know where my H was! Shortly after that, I was disabled, and could barely walk - I was in agonizing pain for 2 months because I could not be treated until after I delivered the baby. I can't tell you how many tears I cried as I struggled to get my kids ready for school, make their meals, all by myself, when the pain wouldn't stop and I couldn't stand. My mother in law came every other day, and even my H came in the evenings when she wasn't there...but it wasn't even close to what I needed. <p>You see, Honey, I do know where you are at. I know how tired you are. I also know that feeling sorry for you won't get you out of this pain. <p>Of course you are a strong person. Codependents are not weak by any stretch of the imagination! The problem is that we push ourselves too hard, expect too much from ourselves, and too little from everyone else. We don't take care of ourselves because we are focused on everyone else. And then we end up crashing like you are now, exhausted because we have not protected our own emotional reserves. Now you can do 1 of 2 things: 1. blame your H and everyone else for not taking care of you ... or 2. acknowledge that you have not protected yourself.<p>Which do you think is fixable?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I hate to ask for help...<hr></blockquote><p>This is pride. Acceptance that you are a human being that can't do it all, and that you need help is the first step! <p>1. We admitted that we were powerless over (insert any person, situation or disease), that our lives had become unmanageable.<p>Notice the "we" - not "I". You aren't meant to do this alone!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I try to put on that I can do it face to my family and friends..<hr></blockquote><p>And if you don't ask for help ... then no one can offer it to you. <p>Right now, I am helping my SIL, who had a complete breakdown last week. She's married to my alcoholic brother, and she's from a completely dysfunctional alcoholic family that looks perfect on the outside. The rigid perfectionism that her family displays is a red flag to most healthy people...but they honestly thought they were hiding their problems. Well, finally my SIL lost it. We haven't had to hospitalize her, thank goodness, but finally she hit a bottom where she had to ask for help. She calls me several times a day now for support and help - and she marvels at how much help was out there for her - and that all she had to do was ask! But for her, it took coming to the brink of suicide before she picked up the phone and called me. That was her bottom.<p>She couldn't do it alone. Neither can you. We aren't emotionally wired that way. "I can do it myself" is based in pride and fear. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> and they see a whole lot less of this pathetic me than you guys have... maybe I am afraid of them bahsing me... or thinking less of me... <hr></blockquote><p>And instead of bashing or thinking less, maybe they will have help and encouragement to offer you. But you'll never know if you keep yourself hidden. My MIL was afraid to go to Al-Anon because she is well known in our community. She was afraid of what everyone would think. Then she finally went, and found people she never knew had the same problems she did...and found a whole wealth of support and understanding that she never knew existed.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I used to tell everything to my H, but feeling like he does not love me anymore.. at least not as he once did ... I feel so alone..<hr></blockquote><p>Trying to get love from your H right now is like going to the autoparts store for bread and milk. It aint gonna happen. So its time to take a look around and see where you CAN get the love and support you need. There are alot of healthy places to look for it! Just because your H doesn't love you does not mean that you are not lovable.<p>I'm going to finish this by quoting to you the Al-Anon promises, ok?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If we willingly surrender ourselves to the spirtual discipline of the Twelve Steps, our lives will be transformed. We will become mature, responsible individuals with a great capacity for joy, fulfillment and wonder. Though we may never be perfect, continued spiritual progress will reveal to us our enormous potential. We will discover that we are both worth of love and loving. We will love others without losing ourselves, and will learn to accept love in return. Our sight, once clouded and confused, will clear and we will be able to perceive reality and recognize truth. Courage and fellowship will replace fear. We will be able to risk failure to develop new, hidden talents. Our lives, no matter how battered and degraded, will yield hope to share with others. We will begin to feel and will come to know the vastness of our emotions, but will will not be slaves to them. Our secrets will no longer bind us in shame. As we gain the ability to forgive ourselves, our families, and the world, our choices will expand. With dignity we will stand for ourselves, but not against our fellows. Serenity and peace will having meaning for us, as we allow our lives and the lives of those we love to flow day by day with God's ease, balance, and grace. No longer terrified, we will discover we are free to delight in life's paradox, mystery and awe. We will laugh more. Fear will be replaced by faith, and gratitude will come naturally as we realizle that our Higher Power is doing for us what we can not do for ourselves.
<hr></blockquote><p>That quote is out of "From Survival to Recovery", an Al-Anon book about childhood experiences of alcholism. <p>On my darkest days Honey, I read that passage over and over - begging my Higher Power for the willingness to become willing to Let Go and Let God.<p>This is how I got to where I am today. I had to learn that my happiness and serenity could not be based on my husband. It wasn't until I learned these lessons that my life turned around. <p>You can have this too, Honey. All it takes is a decision.<p>(((hugs)))

Hi honey,
Someone may have already mentioned this article to you, but if not, then you should read it... It has to do with dealing with alcoholic spouses...<p>How the Co-Dependency Movement is Ruining Marriages