I just got back from out an out of town trip that has made me see things a bit more clearly when it comes to my OW friend -- a non sexual relationship -- but has raised a couple other questions for me. And I did read the MB book while out of town.<p>The first thing happened when I took a 25 year old woman out to dinner. I am in my mid 40s and met this woman years ago. She looks to me as a mentor. During dinner she told me that her father had an affair several years ago. She said it was devastating because she had so looked up to her father and she never believed he would have done that. She said the family knew something was up when he was working late, pulling away. He moved out, came back and the marriage is strong. But as I sat there listening, I thought about my own kids and how they see me. I dont want to hurt them in any way.<p>The next night I went to dinner with a 47 year old woman and we walked back to the hotel, had a couple drinks. She told me I was easy to talk with, she told me things she said she had not told anyone else, touching my arm, etc. It was clear that if I wanted, we could go back to her room. I liked her, felt the spark, but it was not what I sought. We hugged and called it a night.<p>What I enjoy with my OW friend is that spark, that electricity when we talk, something about just being with her is so fulfilling. It is not about sex and that is not what I sought.<p>My question is this: As I pull away from her, I feel I am really letting something special go. That spark I talked about. I love my wife very much, but for those of you who have been in my place, do you ever get over the feeling that you are missing something special? How did you get over that feeling? <p>I know I love/infatued with her more than she may be with me. But the devils advocate in me says so what. It is enjoyable and nice. What is wrong with it?<p>I feel that life -- although very good in all aspects -- will go on just fine, that I will miss this OW in my life. And she was a friend, never something sexual.<p>Any thoughts?

I think you are looking for someone to go ahead and say yes this relationship is ok. You are looking for justification. It ain't gonna happen here. I think you need to get some counseling with your wife, and figure out why you feel the need to go out to dinner with 2 women who are not your wife, and carry on a secret "non-sexual" (yeah right, kissing, touching, saying I love you is non-sexual??) relationship with a co-worker.<p>Yes, you will feel like you are letting go of someone special as you pull away from this so called friend. But think of it this way: you are doing this because your WIFE, who is much more special to you (after all, you did marry her!), would be hurt and you don't want to hurt her. You can do it, it takes a strong person to do it...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It is enjoyable and nice. What is wrong with it? <hr></blockquote>
The answer, I assume, if you will look down, is on the third finger of your left hand. If she is only a friend, then why can't she be invited to your home and you and your wife and she be friends? That would be part of the answer to what is wrong if that wouldn't work.<p>You need to wake up and look at your wife. If she doesn't light that spark anymore, find out why. Do the emotional needs quiz on this site (Women love those kinds of quizzes!)and see what needs to be worked on. Keep your love life sizzling. Nobody can till your garden and make it bloom but you.<p>[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: diddallas ]</p>

from The Mastery of Love by don Miguel Ruiz:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Perhaps you are thinking, "But what if I am not with the right woman or the right man? That is a very important question. Of course, you have to choose the right woman or right man. And what is the right woman, the right man? Someone who wants to go in the same direction as you do, someone who is compatible with your views and your values--emotionally, physically, economically, spiritually. <p>How do you know if your partner is right for you? Let's imagine that you are a man and a woman is going to choose you. If there are a hundred women looking for a man, and each will look at you as a possibility, for how many of these women will you be the right man? The answer is: You don't know. That is why you need to explore and take the risk. But I can tell you that the right woman for you is the woman you love just the way she is, the woman you don't have the need to change at all. That is the right woman for you. You are lucky if you find the right woman for you and at the same time you are the right man for her. <hr></blockquote><p>Cali: Ruiz discusses in this book that therein lies the crux of most relationships... because after you get through the 'honeymoon' period, you get into the conflict/control period where the two people in the relationship jockey for control and try to change one another, or become unhappy w/ parts of the person they are with.<p>Ruiz: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Perhaps you already have a certain amount of time invested in a relationship. If you choose to keep going, you can still have a new beginning by accepting and loving your partner just the way she is. But first you will have to take a step back. You have to accept yourself and love yourself just the way you are. You are what you are and that is all that you are. You don't need to pretend to be something else. When you pretend to be what you are not, you are always going to fail.<p>Once you accept yourself just the way you are, the next step is to accept your partner. If you decide to be with a person, don't try to change anything about her. <hr></blockquote><p>I heartily recommend the whole book... but I would start w/ his first book The Four Agreements.<p>Cali<p>[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]</p>

The dinners were part of a national conference I had to attend. They were not dinners in the sense of trying to pick anyone up.
And if you had read the post more clearly, you would have seen how much I learned from the young woman who spoke of her father's affair. It had nothing to do with trying to get her to bed.
The second dinner showed me that I am not looking for sexual affair, which led to the questions I posed.

How would you feel about your wife going out to dinner with other men, touching, hugging and kissing them? Engaging in emotional intimacy with another man? Even if she didn't get into bed with somebody else?<p>There are danger signals all around you. If this was a national conference, you could have engaged in GROUP dinners, or eaten alone. Yet you "took" 2 women out to dinner, which implies a definite invitation and that you paid for their meals. Red flags! The next thing is that you are secretive about this behaviour - unless I have misread this and your wife is both fully aware of and completely enthusiastic about your interacting with other women when you're out of town.<p>Sex follows emotional intimacy.... don't take even one step down this road. Why are the ages of these women so important to you, BTW?

All I can say is that if you would not do or say the things you are to this woman with your wife there, then it is not right to be doing.<p>BTW, how would you feel if your wife was out talking to someone like you are??? Would it be o.k. with you???

mmseekingadvice ~<p>You can have that spark with your wife. But not while your OW is in the picture.<p>Let me share with you some of my own background. I'm the oldest daughter of 10 children. My father has had multiple emotional affairs since I can remember. My mother was never his special someone, because his focus was always on what was wrong with her. Why did he only see what was wrong? Because there was always some other woman that he had a "spark" with, that my mother was always compared to. My father, to my best knowledge has never had a physical affair. He's always defended his "friendships" with these women because they aren't sexual. <p>But the affect that I saw was that my father was too busy taking THOSE women gifts, sending them email, chatting on the phone, and spending his recreational time with them, to bother with my mother, who was saddled with the sole responsiblity for running the house and raising 10 children.<p>Why couldn't he love my Mom? He couldn't because he put a great deal of his emotional energy outside of his marriage.<p>And the affect on me was that I didn't understand what a loving, nurturing marriage looked like. My fathers emotional involvement with other women was never blatant, but it sent a clear message to me about "normal" male behavior. It was no surprise that I married an emotionally unavailable man. What attracted me to my husband was that he felt comfortable - he was what I knew. Unfortunately I didn't recognize that what I thought was comfortable and right, was very unhealthy.<p>My father, to this day, still cheats on my mother like this. It hurts me beyond belief - and in fact, because of what I now understand about affairs, I have almost no relationship with him. I can not stand even to talk to him on the phone, because his behavior upsets me so much.<p>He doesn't think what he is doing is wrong either. And he thinks each one of those women is special. This has gone on to the point that one of his "friends" actually pushed herself BETWEEN my mother and father, and flung herself into my father's arms, as they stood at the graveside of my 19 year old sister during the funeral. There was no thought at all to my mother's grief or pain or need of comfort. My dad and his "friend" comforted each other while my mother stood to the side.<p>Angry? Yes I am. And when the above incident happened, I was already married - 28 years old. <p>When confronted, my father has all kinds of excuses for why his "friendships" are justified.<p>There is no justification. You owe your wife your emotional fidelity as well as your physical fidelity. And trust me, your children are watching and learning.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by juststartingover:
<strong>Sex follows emotional intimacy.... don't take even one step down this road. Why are the ages of these women so important to you, BTW?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Excatlly how my STXB's PA started. If he was here I think he tell you run not walk from your friend as fast as you can before it is too late. <p>Last evening when STBX returned our sons. I had several things to discuss with him.which basically shows that neither of has any money, i, does he like seeing his sons a few times a wk, no, does he like not being able to buy OS a car, no. So I asked him if it was all worth it, he wouldn't answer, he got in his SUV and left. <p>Now he is most likely happy with OW but is their happiness worth all the hurt, anger, not to count the exonomic harm that has been done to our family and that is just talking the 4 of us, not the broader picture.<p>Sorry but you are a fool if you keep playing with fire, someone will get burned.

I think people are reading way too much into the dinners I had while at the conference. They were in plain view of everyone. All of us were at the conference. I mentioned the age of the first woman because it made me realize the affects of an affair from a child's persecptive. I mentioned the age of the second woman because it showed that sex -- at least to me -- was not the driving force behind my friendhship with the woman.<p>My original plan is still to break away from this OW, but in doing so learn ways to not have my heart ache. She was more guarded than I was, and so she will likely not miss me in the way I will her.<p>The dinners are not the issue.

mm...<p>I believe I totally 'ignored' your dinners and answered your question w/ some info from a book...<p>thoughts?<p>Cali

dittos to what Cali said -<p>I ignored the dinners issue also - and told you the affect of my father's emotional affairs on me...

Hi,<p>Well, seems like there is a tendancy among the older woman to try and justify their right to be the OW. I know in our case, the OW is 45 and thinks it is her right to break up families. <p>The younger woman in your case is smarter. I would steer real clear from any woman who thinks it is ok to invite a MM to her room for whatever, even if it is for a casual conversation. <p>These type of women are the ones who tend to be very manipulative and when push comes to shove the claws come out and then their nails are dug into your soul making it a painful thing to separate. At that point blood is often spilled at the expense of yourself and your family. Once you are able to pull free of their clutch, they go onto their 'next victim' while you and your family are still healing from those deeply inflicted wounds. <p>NOTE: In these cases, there is ALWAYS a hidden agenda. Usually not fully revealed until the victim is in full control of the predator. <p>Keep that mental pix in your head the next time a woman puts the moves on you like that. <p>How do I know this? Hm........... experience...real life experience. <p>Be careful.
L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
[QB]My question is this: As I pull away from her, I feel I am really letting something special go. That spark I talked about. I love my wife very much, but for those of you who have been in my place, do you ever get over the feeling that you are missing something special? How did you get over that feeling?
QB]<hr></blockquote><p>I love my husband very much too and what I had with my OM was different. Like you say it had that special spark. Hind sight is the best way to understand and I will tell you what I now know. I never loved him as I do my husband and I now know that he never loved me. Love is something much more than a "spark". That spark is mere glimmer compared to real love. Have you ever seen your OW (no denying that IS what she is) when she is sick, or 9 months pregnant or seen her after a long night with no sleep worrying about your sick child? No, you see only the fun parts, the good parts, the parts that cause that spark to ignite. Here is reality. Everyone is human and we all have flaws, your little spark of an OW does too. You haven't seen them because you haven't been intimate enough with her but trust me there are there. I wonder if that spark would be lit after you watch her retch her guts out with morning sickness for 3 months. Would it be there when she is so busy taking care of your children that she doesn't have time to shave her pretty little legs? What if she is in an accident and loses her beauty? Would that spark still be there? <p>Now for part 2. If this spark maker is just a friend then take her home and introduce her to your wife and children. Allow your wife to be friends with her. You are probably squirming now because you don't want to share this spark with your wife. That is the reason it needs to stop. If you need to keep her secret from your spouse then I call that an affair. And by the way, does your wife approve of these dates you go on when you are away on business trips? Somehow I bet that's another secret. Wake up MM before you destroy yet another family with deceit, lies and for what? A spark?

Yes, my wife knows about the "dates" when I am at the conference. I am a conf. leader and part of it is going to dinner, with men and woman. It is not a dinner in the traditional sense of a man and woman going to dinner. Not like that. <p>I know what you mean about reality and fantasy. I know this is fantasy, but that doesnt make it any easier to let it go. Crazy, I know

There will not be a way to get out of your relationship without some emotional pain. There simply is no way. So what to do? Admit to yourself that your attachment to OW is an insult to your marriage. Accept that ANY action through with you develop an emotional intimacy with a woman besides your W is unequivocably wrong. Then grit your teeth, and quit cold turkey. By shear strength of will, avoid all contact with OW.
Then hang in there for several weeks while the yearning gradually decreases in intensity. Remember that any renewed contact whatsoever will set you back at the beginning of withdrawal, and you will have to experience the pain all over again. You can do this. It will hurt, but the pain will fade. MM, your attachment to this woman is a slap in the face to your W. Do the honorable thing. It takes a real man to choose what is right even though it hurts.<p>Best wishes,
Estes

"It takes a real man to choose what is right even though it hurts."<p>Well said!

mmsa,
I highlighted the dinners because they are red flags that you may be seeking ways to turn your fantasies into reality. Group dinners in which you talk to a person and enjoy the conversation are one thing; setting up one-on-one dinners with other women are anothrt. It is also not right to allow a woman to constantly touch you, or to end the evening with hugs or kisses. These are all small things, enjoyable and nice, that are opening doors that should remain shut. <p>The problem with sparks is that they are apt to cause conflagrations or explosions.<p>My FWH betrayed me with his "ex-girlfriend", by email and phone calls. He justified it to himself as not hurting anybody because it was all on a fantasy level, wasn't happening in realtime and he had no intention of leaving me for her. But every email he sent was in realtime, every phone call he made or received was in realtime. I was hurt in the here and now.<p>When you tally it up, this fantasy hurt a lot of people in its 5 year playing out time. My H, XOW, me, XOW's 3 ex-fiancees. 6 real people, directly hurt. For something that my FWH now regards as wallowing in emotional masturbation. And what he most deeply regrets, after the pain he caused me, is the loss of his honour.<p>You ask how to get OW out of your mind: change channels! Focus on your W's emotional needs and set out to meet them, tell her what yours are and allow her to meet them. It might not be half as exciting as illicit relationships, but you won't be committing arson and you'll have real light and lasting warmth for your life.