Being "post-recovery" and seeing a lot of bad advice and negativism on the board has induced me to start writing my thoughts on several subjects. This is the first of a few. I certainly don't have all the answers. I don't even have one answer that would apply to everyone, but my marriage is a success story. As such, maybe my ramblings will have a positive impact on someone.<p>An important point that is frequently forgotten: Plans A and B are primarily about the BS. Too many people here simply see these as methods of getting one's spouse back. Nothing could be further from the truth. These plans are about *you* making positive changes in yourself. The most desirable result[ of these changes is the winning back of a WS. The other, less desirable result is still a positive: ability to survive a failed marriage and succeed in a subsequent relationship.<p>I don't want to go too much into the definitions of Plans A and B, because that is covered quite well in the Harley books and interpreted in outstanding fashion by NSR. Mostly I want to discuss my take and application.<p>Too many times here I see postings where a BS laments, "I don't know why this happened, we had a good marriage"; or "I was the perfect spouse". Well, let's face facts. Affairs do not happen in a good marriage. Something is missing in the WS to cause them to stray. It could be some unmet emotional need, the BS pushing them away, inconsistent moral values or simply a weak will that allows one to succumb to temptation. It is primarily in the cases of some unmet emotional need or a BS placing distance between themselves and the WS where Plan A can make a difference in the return of a WS. However in all of these scenarios, Plan A can greatly benefit the BS. <p>When people feel good about themselves, they treat others well. Additionally they tend to make better decisions, such as deciding with whom to enter into a committed relationship. Plan A teaches you how to treat others well. This is a skill that most people can't get too much of. When you feel confident about yourself and treat people well, they like to be around you because it rubs off on them. They also feel safe with you. That's one of the ideas around Plan A. In Dr. Phil's words you become a "safe place for your spouse to fall". In other words, as I have said on this board before, Plan A should become a "lifestyle". It should be a life-long habit of dealing with everyone in your life.<p>Often there is the complaint that Plan A makes the BS into a "doormat". A person only becomes a doormat if they allow it to happen. You can stand your ground and not desert your principles without feeling walked on.<p>Another often misapplied or misunderstood factor in Plan A is "no-contact". Forcing a reluctant WS to send a "no-contact" letter is an invitation for the BS to hear lies about contact. I have rarely felt sympathy for the BS whining because the WS contacted the OP after promising under duress from the BS, that they wouldn't. The WS must freely make the choice to break off the relationship in their own way or there will be no closure.<p>And, a marriage can recover even if contact continues. My marriage is living proof of this.<p>Plan B has a two-fold purpose. One, to let the WS realize what it is like when the BS is no longer meeting any emotional needs and, two, to prepare the BS for a possible permanent break in the relationship. Too often, BS's forget the second purpose. Not every marriage can or should be saved.<p>It's been my experience that even though most affairs follow the "cookbook" given by the Harleys, there are very often unique idiocyncrasies(sp?) that exist in any given relationship. Therefore, there may need to be some "tweaking" in the Harley "recipe". In my own case, many MBers were pushing me very hard at various times to enter into Plan B. I refused to do this for what I believed were very good reasons. And in the end, I was vindicated.<p>Knowing your spouse is something that is extremely important. If you don't truly know who your spouse is deep inside, you have little but a random chance of restoring your marriage. I felt strongly that I deeply knew my W as a person. I felt that if I entered into Plan B, she would interpret that as me giving up and wanting divorce. One day were discussing MB and Plans A and B. After I described Plan B and related that I had refused to do it because I felt she would give up herself, she confirmed this and said that it would not have mattered what I wrote in the "B" letter, she would have seen it as me giving up on the marriage. Had I followed some of the advice I was given here, I would be divorced today.<p>The key was that I knew my W. I had to modify the Harley plan to fit my situation. Many MBers disagreed with this approach, but I was correct in my assessment. A piece of advice I would give BSs here is to take advantage of your knowledge of your spouse. In all but the rarest of cases, there is no real, substantive change in a WS. They are still the same person deep down that you married. In most cases, what the BS sees as "changing into a different person" did not happen at all. Except in the case of mental illness, the WS has always been the person they are today.<p>The bottom line here is that you know what is best to save your marriage. You only need to regain the self-control and self-confidence that will enable you to look inside yourself and inside your spouse to determine the most effective course of action. Whether your marriage survives or fails, you can be a success if in the end you have applied the MB principles correctly and become a better person. It's easy to see the people here who have not succeeded in changing themselves. Their marriages have failed and they continue to pillory the XS without really looking at themselves. They become cynical and question MB and even those whose marriages have survived. <p>There are also a ton of people here whose marriages failed, but they are exemplary success stories because they have used MB to change themselves and to look at the world thru new eyes. To newbies I recommend that you seek out the "success" stories whether the marriage was saved or not and learn as much as you can from these people. I did and I succeeded because of it.

wow! thanks soooo much for sharing this!!!

Thank that really helps me at this point in my situation Jante

bumping up <p>hope it helps<p>thanks<p>nice to see a wise one around, there are few of ya'll around these days

DeWayne,<p>So glad to see a familiar "face" while in my lurkdome.<p>To any and all who read this...
DeWayne not only talks the talk...he walks the walk...he is living proof of the proverb "patience is a virtue".
Many would do well to do a search on his user number to see how he applied the concepts to his life and subsequently to his marriage.<p>Thanks for coming out of your own lurkdome to share this Dewayne. I for one just don't feel brave enough anymore...

DeWayne is DeMan!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Well, next to my dear H, that is!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Honey, you've got this SOOOOOOOOOO right on, it's AMAZING. Thank you for sharing it!!<p>Like Nicole, I have cut way back in my posting, and the last few times I have shared anything of true MB substance I have been shot down BUT GOOD. <p>Thanks for being brave enough to "tell it like it is"... <p>And I'll second Nicole's idea that ya'll do a search on DeWayne and see what a man of character he truly is!!<p>Platonic Hugs, my friend,

Hi DeWayne!<p>Just popped in to say HI! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I posted a HUGE update on the D/D board. If you haven't seen it yet, check it out! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Great info for the "newbies" BTW!<p>Love ya,
Mitzi [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hey Dewayne,<p>Don't listen to Sheryl. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] She is greatly valued around here and people do take her advice. As for your Post??? Right on! A few more people need to understand about these two plans. They are far more subtle than most think.<p>Glad to hear you are doing well.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

[img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>ANY old excuse to use our fav face, eh JL? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks for the nice thoughts too...<p>Okay back to the reason for this thread....<p>Heeeeeere's DeWayne.....

Dear DeWayne,<p>As a (relative) newbie to this board I thank you. I endured the *heartpain* of betrayal without benifit of any "plan". (No internet at home or at work then) Our marriage has survived (6 years later), and is better than before .... BUT, I can say that I regret not taking care of myself with a "Plan A" . <p>I first came to MB and mostly read posts ...(a few years back)... and I thought I would puke when I read about BS's waiting and waiting and being caught in a seemingly never-ending spiral of doormatism. I just didn't get it. And, I know I still don't get it entirely ... but, I'm working on it. I think the real value is to learn how to behave in a loving way despite what the other person does. (More Christian too ... but, that's another story) I did not respect my WH for years after the recovery began. The disrespect I showed him has reflected back onto me. And, I don't like it one bit! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My WH has recovered better than I have!!! It has been hard for me to figure out why this is so. I suspect it is in part because he was working his AA program .... while I chewed my resentments and self-righteousness [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] that I cultivated instead of a "Plan A" to restore my self-esteem.<p>I want to turn myself around.<p>Any suggestions?<p>With gratitude, and hope.....<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Gee, it's so nice to see MARRIAGEBUILDERS advice on the MARRIAGEBUILDERS site!<p>AND it's great to see DEWAYNE, NICOLE, and SHERYL here too!<p>Let's start a MB reunion thread!<p>Peppermint<p>[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: peppermint ]</p>

Hello Heartpain, I congratulate you on your success story and thank you for sharing it at a time when any encouragement is welcomed AND needed. <p>From the posts that I've read, you've endured a great deal of pain but YOU MADE IT.

Faith1 - You are very welcome...<p>Jante - I don't know your story yet, but if this is any help I'm glad I finally put pen to paper(or finger to keyboard)<p>sing - You really had a rough time of it, but you came through wonderfully. You are one of the successes I talked about [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Nicole - I'm honored that you came out of lurkdom for me!! Thanks for the complement, but there are many others that would serve as more appropriate role models. Besides, K is the model for all the "patience is a virtue" statues. The man has more stamina than I would in 10 lifetimes. I'm just the old, grumpy MB curmudgeon... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I have been debating for some months whether to ever post anything substantive again. But after months and months of co-dependent enablement being substituted for real help, I just couldn't take it any more. I don't think I will remain here long after I get out the things I want to say...<p>Luv ya...<p>Sheryl - You are one of the reasons I have this "right on". You helped keep me at least within shouting distance of the "right path" back then...<p>I hear ya about the being shot down. I have read some of the posts you made that you are referring to. Mostly what a lot of these people want is "freddy-feel-good" enablement. They should all see my W's ex-therapist 'cause that's what they would get.<p>Platonic hugs back at ya'...<p>Mitzi - I just finished reading your HUGE update. All I can say is "Congratulations, it could not have happened to a finer gal".. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Your hunk is one lucky man. He better treat you right or he will have to answer to me and about 100 others here...<p>JL - I NEVER listen to Sheryl, didn't you know that? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I agree that more people need to understand the plans. I am not in a position to understand all this as much as you and K, but I did see where I needed to make some "modifications".<p>BTW, I did read some of the threads on (I think) Emotional Needs where you were being beat up pretty badly. It was all I could do to not jump into the fray at your side, but as always, you needed no one's help and just carried your head high. I really do admire you greatly and wish I had your level head.<p>Pepperband - Welcome. Unfortunately there can be a fine line between a good Plan A and "doormatism". You can do a good "external" plan A without making the internal changes. It's then you start feeling like a doormat. Part of my Plan A was to(after 9 months) realize that I could walk away from the marriage and feel good about my efforts. It was this calm determination that was a huge factor in my W's change of attitude.<p>Being somewhere between atheist and agnostic, I usually don't like to bring religion into anything, but Plan A(love thy neighbor, golden rule, turn the other cheek, etc.) is the Christian thing to do, the Jewish thing to do, the Islamic thing to do and Buddhists were doing it 500 years before the birth of Christ.<p>As far as any suggestions, I don't have any right now, but I will think on it. However, the fact that you recognize what is happening even though you are not sure why and the additional fact that you want to change it means you are more than halfway home!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Ah Peppermint - I think the reason MB advice isn't given any more is because the wise veterans like you aren't here much. I've had some of the same results as Sheryl in what little I've posted. Guess it's because I won't endorse the LB techniques I've seen here lately.<p>Hey, the reunion is your idea, maybe you should start it! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Love you all...

Terrified - We must have been posting at the same time.<p>Thank you.<p>As for the turmoil I endured, I had a network of friends, a therapist and family to support me, but I never would have survived had it not been for the "cyber-friends" I made here. Many people dug down deep to help me when I needed it and it saved my marriage and, maybe more importantly, my sanity. I hope we can do the same for you.<p>[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Heartpain ]</p>

Sending back to the top!!<p>Hey DeWayne - maybe change the name to something a little more... um... catchy... like... uh...<p>"Read this to make your sex life come alive" <p>or...<p>"This is how I won a million bucks"...<p>This needs to be read by EVERYONE!!!!

DeWayne,<p>Great post. We need this once in a while to sober things up around here.<p>I take particular interest in the tweaking of the Harley recipe you mention. Everyone's situation is just a little bit different. For me as a BS, my wife is involved in an EA with another woman. I really haven't found anyone here that can match that scenario. I am working very closely with Steve Harley on this and have been able to survive in Plan A for almost fifteen months. I think I have made it that long because Steve has helped me see that my WW has absolutely no future in the realtionship she is in right now. By working on myself, I am hopefully showing her that I am willing to make the changes we need to get back together. It's working. Even though she hasn't made the choice to end her realtionship with the Op yet, we are getting there. I can feel it. <p>It's great to hear another success story. I wish you all the best!

Hi, Big Brother!! Sheryl's right, "sex" in the title would surely bring a lot of readers. You did a great job on this....I've been pulling together some "musings" of my own, but, for now, I'll just let you cover it. But I'll underline one point for now....a real Plan A and being a doormat have absolutely NOTHING to do with each other. Once you "get it", it's soooooo much easier!<p>Luv ya!<p>Lori<p>Hey to Nicole, and Sheryl and Peppermint and Mitzi and JL and everybody! I'm not around enough to keep up, so I guess I'll have to head over and read that big update!

Heartpain.<p>Thank you for your post. It really hit home. as a relative newcommer, I come here to find solutions. Your post is very much appreciated, while every situaltion is different, It is always good to see what works. <p>I need some help - I pulled up your member # & could only get the first 200 posts. How do you get more? It seemed to go back to the first 200. It got to the point where dv was just around the corner......now I'm in suspense!!!!<p>I have to admit that what I post is not always positive based on what I am feeling at the time. I have vented here because I have seen others do it, also because there is really no where else to go where others understand what you are going thruogh. In saying that, I do take responsibility for myself and also post the positve steps that I am taking.<p>Here is an example of what you have inspired me to do: <p>My WH says that he does want to work on the M, slowly chip away at it. But, he lives in another state & is opening a new business there. He told me that he is just concentrating on the business right now and con't or won't deal with the conflick in our M. (By the way OW1 & OW2 are nearby) He has started to sign business (we are in bus. together) correspondence to me LOVE,.... and even said it Sat. while talking on the phone. He wants (expects) help with this new business.<p>My attorney is all for it - it will go in my name. Here's my dilema:<p>WH wants to concentrate on new business. I want to see some movement towards working on the M so I feel more comfortable working on this new project. (Financial stability is needed in our family) <p>So, I ask myself what steps can he take right now to show me that he is willing to work on this M, so I can work on the Bus. They are:<p>1. Make prompt appmt with SH when asked to do so (he's had 1 apmt & agreed to another)<p>2. Take EN & LB questionaire & send to Steve<p>3. Take a temramental analyis on the web so we and learn how to deal with each other according to our own personal makeup.<p>4. Set aside X amount of time when he comes home (few days mo.) to talk about us, what happened, answer questions.<p>5. Cut all contact with OW1 & OW2 (JUST "FRIENDS")<p>6.Continue to sign correspondence LOVE,....<p>7. Arrange to go away for a weekend together, just the 2 of us, & no talk about R. <p>Do I expent him to do all of these - no. But I feel that somehow these need to be addresed.<p>WH has according to SH, compartmentalized his life & shows no concern for my feelings or how this mite affect me 7/or kids<p>If there is any feedback, it would be appreciated.<p>Heartpain, thanks again for your post. I hope you and others stick around a lttle while, it is very encouraging & gives me hope.<p>GOD BLESS

Hey DeWayne, Lori and all the oldies but goodies that have ventured out to endorse this one. You have made some very GOOD points and I hope that everyone on here reads them. <p>It was funny how many people told me I should leave my H after I posted my 2 yr update! I would dare say that few if any knew anything about my saga...our life is NOT perfect, but there are glimmers of hope. <p>My needs are not being met as I would like, but having come so far, I can see the things that have changed and I owe it to people who knew the priciples and espoused them to me when I needed to hear them...especially you guys...I am definitely NOT a doormat. Had I not had plan A I probably would have been, but because of it I was able to find me, hone me, and present a person that apparently my H liked the looks of because he is home, truly home and beginning to take interest in hobbies and other things that he left behind long ago. THAT is progress...all due to my 'version' of plan A. <p>You are right, everyone has to plan A on their own accord. There are no set rules that you travel from a to z at prescribed times. Practice makes perfect...and you guys have shown what that perfection can bring. Thanks for surfacing to attempt help for so many who need it... me included!

Always Hopeful - You don't know how many arguments I got into on this board because I also maintained the uniqueness of our situations. I got beat over the head quite often with the "fact" that all affairs follow the storybook line. I've seen posts recently from those who have counseled with Steve Harley that relate where he helps them adapt to unique circumstances, so I feel doubly vindicated.<p>I did Plan A for about 18 months. I certainly wasn't perfect. Every 3 or 4 weeks I would LB because of my impatience. I realize now that had I done a more perfect Plan A, this all would have been resolved much sooner.<p>My W still maintains a work friendship with OM. I don't really like it, but it is all in the open now(from her) and you just can't insist on things when it is perceived that you are "controlling"...<p>Sis - Well, I know you and Sheryl are right, although sex as a subject line probably wouldn't attract as much attention here as it would in the EN forum. <p>Thank you for putting the exclusivity of Plan A and "doormat" more clearly and succinctly than I.<p>Luv ya...<p>WillGetThruThis - First just let me say that it isn't important whether or not your posts are positive or negative. If you vent here, you make it less likely that you will do so to the WS.<p>I have printed copies of most of my posts. I will go thru them and give you the URLs of some of the later ones. I tried the search and the same thing happened. I also tried using "January 2000" as a keyword, but that didn't work either. Searching is the one weak point of this UBB software.<p>My W never was successful in moving out, so you and I have that in contrast, but so much of what you said reminds me of our situation here.<p>W was anxious to "find herself" first, I was anxious to attempt marital repair as I knew "finding yourself" can take years or a lifetime. Eventually, she decided to try to work on the marriage after seeing that I was ready to leave. It wasn't a threat or ultimatum, I just felt like we couldn't go on and I wanted her to be happy, so I wanted to let her go. Each time I tried to let her go, she came back closer...I guess she felt she could come closer because I was letting go out of love.<p>I like most of your points, but number five(5) is a toughie. Do what you think is best, but I don't believe you can demand this(make it a deal-breaker) without the possibility of subjecting your self to more heartache.<p>W admitted to me one time that compartmentalization was how the affair was able to proceed. She boxed me out at work and OM at home. Once she had sex with him and confessed to me, the walls between the worlds came tumbling down into chaos.<p>I really like what I see you posting because you are approaching this from a practical standpoint. I agree that each and every one of your points need to be addressed by your H. But I also admire your perspective that realistically, not all of these may be resolved to your ideal satisfaction.<p>I think it shows promise that your H has already had one session with SH and may have others. I still cannot get my W to do any joint counseling. But, that's another post.<p>Good luck and I will try to keep up with your story.<p>Hugs....<p>Victoria - Good to hear from you again...
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It was funny how many people told me I should leave my H after I posted my 2 yr update!<hr></blockquote>
And you know what, go back and look at who those people were and how their situations were going. I'll bet a majority of them don't have a handle on their own situations.<p>I've complained(as has Sheryl) many times about the "throw the bum out" mentality of a lot of posters here. Funny thing is most of those saying that are still having problems with their spouse and they haven't thrown them out yet!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>"I was able to find me, hone me, and present a person that apparently my H liked the looks of because he is home..." That is what most people here miss. Your key was setting up yourself first, then everything else fell into place.<p>"...my 'version' of plan A.." Ah, a lady after my own heart. You are very much a success my friend, much more so than I.<p>luv ya...