And I suspect it's not worth the waste of breath to clue him in. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I should preface this with the reminder that my H was the BS in his two previous Ms, and he chose THIS M to be the WS. He was so intolerant of his previous wives' adultery that he divorced them, so one would think he should have a clue as to what being a BS is all about. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I could tell it was a wedding invitation that arrived in today's mail, and I didn't even want to touch it because of aversion, but I managed to put it in his stack of incoming mail and hoped I wouldn't have to deal with it anymore.<p>Later, he starts to hand it to me, telling me what it is and who it's from.<p>Me: Yeah, I figured that's what it was.<p>H: There's an RSVP in there.<p>Me: I don't want to deal with it.<p>H: Neither do I (still trying to palm it off on me). I don't know if we'll have enough money to make the trip.<p>Me: (taking it by the corner with two fingers and dropping it on nearest table while walking out of room) Well, I won't be going anyway.<p>H: (calling to me from other room) Why not?<p>Me: (while walking to a farther-away room) I'm not ready for that yet.<p>Whereupon I buried my head in my work and didn't come up for air until now. (H left to do errands.)<p>This is not just any wedding. This is the wedding of a relative whose previous wedding was the day before ours; we scheduled ours on the same weekend so all the relatives only had to make one trip. This wedding is taking place in the same place as our wedding. Our wedding--where his meaningless vows to me took place.<p>Expecting me to attend a wedding, especially that particular wedding, is somewhat akin to asking a barren woman to attend a childbirth. Everything in me wants to run from the excruciating pain such a locale and event would trigger. Just thinking about it is bad enough, and I've been dreading it since that relative announced their engagement. It is not the relative's fault because they have no idea since H has chosen to conceal his betrayal of me from his entire family.<p>The fact that it doesn't even occur to my H that I would want to avoid such an assault on the senses, an incessant barrage of reminders of the past that was stolen from me, is so defeating. Why should I even have to explain such a thing to him? [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>During my last attempt to address his insensitivity about such things (almost a month ago), I asked him if he remembered the things he told me about his feelings and reactions during the months after discovering his ex-W's adultery. He contended that he did. I asked him why then I have to point these things out to him. He claimed that he did understand and snapped back, "I guess I could say I'm sorry every day! Would that help?" I said it sure couldn't hurt and added, "Nothing has changed now that you're on the other side. The feelings over here are all the same and even more painful for me this time around [I was also the BS in my previous M] because you KNEW what you were inflicting on me and did it anyway." [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It was on the heels of that fruitless discussion that I determined to avoid talking about our R. It is just too painful to observe his lack of empathy, understanding, and remorse. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Do you think he'll ever get it? How long should I wait for it to happen before I give up? He claims to love me, even be IN love with me, and that he wants to help me recover, yet he still seems in such deep denial, like it's just "Oops, I F'd up. Sorry." and then go on about his business as if nothing's happened. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Your H probably doesn't have any idea why attending that wedding would be so painful for you. (kick in the butt time) If you want to take part in the recovery of your M, you have to TALK to your H, and tell him the reasons why it's difficult for you. He isn't a mind reader - just like you couldn't read his mind before the A. This is a fantastic opportunity for you to open up more to your H.<p>As far as your original vows at your wedding, I understand that you're venting here (goodness knows, I've done a good deal of that too! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ). But there is a great chance that when you spoke your vows to each other, you BOTH meant what you said. I'll admit, I haven't been following your story closely, so I appologize if I'm out of line here. I do know that you've been on this board for a while now, so I'll assume you've done plenty of reading on the site. That said, you are well aware how any M can deteriorate (just use the love bank scenerio).<p>Oh, and as far as the "Oops! I F'd up" thing - I think that's pretty typical for all WS's. Somehow, they are truly able to forget about all the B.S. that went on. It's us, as the BS's who have to learn to let it go. I can see where you are at right now with this - it wasn't that many months ago when I was in a similar state with my H. Trust me, as long as you follow the 'rules' from MB, you'll heal that much faster.<p>Karen

I agree with Topie - your H is probably clueless. You need to tell him. My H asked me if I wanted to go to some baseball games with him this year and I looked at him and I said that is a trigger for me. He said ok and dropped it. Two days later he asked me what I meant by a trigger. I explained that I remember him being away at "baseball games" often during his time with the OW and that's what it makes me think of. Now he get's it. No offense guys but men seem to need to have things laid out for them sometimes - of course in a non LB way [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Conquerer<p>I think this is an issue that reqiures a great deal of reflection and thought...and should preface my response with my thinking hope springs eternal....<p>You have the chance for him and you to be in the presence of where it all began...the good stuff..the begining ...the exact moment where he and you made promises to one another...it is truly sacred ground where the OW has not and cannot tread...she's not there...and would't be if you went back...it's all you..<p>I think it can be a good thing...but I also know you are hurt, frustrated...and still very angry...that comes across loud and clear in your post...and it is my humble opinion that throwing the affair in his face in relationship to the place of the wedding is a huge LB in the sense that you could use this to your advantage...NOT TO deny the feelings of the place being tainted by his actions for you..... but to move past that in an attempt to recover what you had....and re-visiting that place together on good plan A note..may be what you both need...<p>Remember also that women are ruled by emotions..and men are more strongly influenced by visual...visually revisting where your love began for him...visually realizing what he has jeopardized, damaged and almost destroyed may have a profound impact on him...what i am saying is don't let that opportunity pass by and don't ruin it by forcing your emotional pain into his experience...that won't work....Let him see what he has risked through his eyes...and then through yours....<p>I would plan A my [censored] off for the opportunity to make it happen...dancing again together under the same roof...may be the sock in the gut wake up call you crave....and Conquerer what I am suggesting is way way easier said than done..and I know it's easy for me to say...but think about it...just think about it...it just might be revelation....<p>peace to you and your home
ARK

Well, Ark, I started crying immediately when I read what you wrote, so there definitely is something big in what you said.<p>And I think that's why I'm so afraid to go there. I think I'll be like this the whole time, that I won't be able to stop crying, and none of my support system will be there, just his family, and he refuses to let his family know that he is an adulterer and that our M is at death's door.<p>His family won't know what to do with me, and I wouldn't be allowed to tell them why I'm a wreck. I fear that I will ruin it for the bride and groom and everyone else. And then he'll just be mad at me because he doesn't want to be exposed to his family.<p>It's just a whole bunch of things, and I don't feel strong enough. I understand what you're saying, and it is valid, and I might even see it the exact same way if it was someone else. I guess I just don't trust myself to hold myself together enough to get through it.<p>What I'm trying to say is I agree with your theory, but I have no idea how to pull it off when I'm sitting here unable to stop crying just thinking and writing about it, and I don't know how to approach my H about it after the exchange I described above.<p>I won't close the door on it, but I'm sure gonna need a lot of help to walk through the door--that's for sure. It feels like I would imagine it would feel to face where your child was murdered or something like that. All my hopes and dreams died that day, though I didn't know it at the time. That was the day I stepped onto the road that led me here to the worst pain of my life. Hard to face it, but maybe I have to.

One of the lessons taught to me during grieving was/is: "You cannot 'get over' grief until you've gone 'through' it". Sometimes avoiding a situation can be more detramental than by meeting it head on.<p>If you explain to your H why going to this wedding would be so painful for you, do you think he might agree to a compromise? For example: you agree to go if he'll agree to leave with you if you're not feeling well. Compromise and compromise. It's all about the POJA here.<p>Any which way you look at it, you still need to talk to your H about it - when you're ready of course. Have you thought about writing out your concerns to your H?<p>Karen

I managed to stop crying, and while fixing dinner I thought about it some more. I was having similar thoughts as you mentioned, Karen, that when something triggers that much emotion, then maybe that itself is an indicator that it has to be faced and dealt with.<p>So far, I've been avoiding talking to my H about stuff like this because his responses are so, well there's no other way to put it--lame! His lack of empathy and ownership of what he did comes to the forefront, and it causes major hemorrhage from my Love Bank. I think I've been avoiding it because I fear what may happen if it empties completely. Sometimes it feels like it's already there.<p>I'm going to have to give a lot of thought to all of this and re-evaluate my course. Thank you all for helping me to think more deeply about it.

Yikes Conquerer, I was at work yesterday when I read your response back to me..and felt bad about making you cry..and ofcourse could't respond back...ugghhh...<p>I think you can do this...yep that old hope springs eternal crap...<p>Picture yourself not going and being home miserable that weekend..I thing that would be worse as it would full of regrets and what ifs...<p>If you can picture yourself there over and over...if you can prepare..if you can rehearse I think it's something you could do...<p>And again Conquerer I would not tell him how hard it would be for you in a LB way...I don't want the two of you to go with him feeling like I am such a **** for this that this place is already so ruined in her mind then what's the point....make that a good place for him...remind him of how good it was..and how good it can be if HE helps make it so...<p>I read your other posts this am to and am very hopeful now...you husband listening to the Phil tape...very cool...<p>You may never get him to break down the way you want...can you live with that...Can part of his inability about not showing much remorse be his difficulty in acknowledging that he is capable of inflicting so much pain on you since he as a former bs really does know how much he hurt you???? <p>can you believe that he loves now, and is sorry? CAN YOU??? Can you believe him if he doesn't show you the way you want??<p>Some people would give there soul to hear there WS say they love them... <p>I'm just asking... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] (tell me to mind my own business [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>I watched Ed last night as well...the thing that killed me at the end was when ed told molly that he thinks he did love her...and then kind of encouraged her to go for it even though it's scarey...I yelled ummmmm excuse me..don't you mean after he gets a divorce and is relationship free for atleast a year and then if he still feels that way about molly then MAYBE they could date????!!!!!!!!!!My husband laughed told me to calm down, take a breath and reminded me it was just a show...eeek...<p>be good to yourself Conquerer
ARK

Conquerer,<p>I don't any good advice...just wanted to let you know that your feelings are so normal! I remember how I felt at the first wedding we went to after D-Day (without all the added the stuff that you have with this wedding). We're about a month away from 2nd anniversay of D-Day and we're going to our wedding in April -- and it's still hard and I'm starting to get stressed about it. I think I'll take some of the advice here and talk to my husband about it (I'm actually getting knots in my stomach right now just thinking about the vows part of the ceremony!). <p>My only suggestion....if you are not ready to deal with this, could you compromise somehow....like finding an excuse not to attend the ceremony but going to the reception? Just a thought to take one step at a time.<p>Hugs & prayers,
JJ

Conquerer: You're still focusing so much on the A. You MUST get past that. It's NOT THE REAL ISSUE. IMO, the best way to get past it is to talk about it, and just let it out of your system. Remember, the A was not the cause of your marital problems, just a side effect your H chose.<p>Ark gave an excellent suggestion to picture yourself at the wedding ahead of time. If you can go to the church ahead of time (by a few days lets say), then all the better. Anything to watch out for triggers on the day of the wedding IF you go.<p>I've done a LOT of that myself. For me, it was dealing with the passing of my son, Andrew. Although he wasn't even 4 yrs old, there were still a lot of memories I had of him all over town, at friends and family's homes, etc. I would take one event/visit at a time, picture myself there, and in essence, prepare myself for sure thing triggers. It works like a charm!!! But I'll be honest with you - there are some triggers that you just can't avoid. Some things that you never would have thought would bring some memories back. When that happens to me, I just remove myself from that area, even if only for a few minutes.<p>The first time it hit me was xmastime 2000. (Andrew had passed away Sept 11, 2000). H and I went to the grocery store to do some shopping. We walked in the door, where numerous flowers (mostly poinsettia) were on display. The smell of the flowers brought me back to the funeral home (we got at LEAST 30 bouquets and plants). I had prepared myself for the 'smell' ahead of time - but all I did for that was promise myself that it would be a LONG time before I set foot in a flower shoppe. I sure as heck didn't expect the local A&P to trigger me!!<p>Sorry for the rambling... it just seemed like a perfect opportunity to remind you to expect the unexpected.. and don't forget you have 5 senses that could trigger something.<p>Karen

Ark, JJ, Karen,<p>I think I could go through with the wedding and maybe not even fall apart, at least not more noticeably than anyone else (maybe everyone would think it was just normal wedding emotionalism), and I can probably do it without revealing any negative stuff to my H, but I think what would enable me to do it is to depend on the anger to hold me up, and that might reinforce it to hear the vows in that frame of mind.<p>And, Ark, you zeroed in on my bottom line and what runs through my mind a lot, though in a different way. I do know that without him doing the work to show me he fully comprehends and owns what he did and why and how he'll work to make sure it will never happen again I will not stay in the M in the long term. I'm currently thinking I might be able to give it the two years that's mentioned a lot, but if he doesn't get real and do the hard stuff, I think I'd give up by then.<p>What I wonder about is if he DOES do all the recovery things, what then? Can it ever overcome the knowledge of my disposability to him? You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. I know now how valueless I am to him, and right now I just can't imagine ever believing in the love thing with him again. Maybe he truly believes he loves me now, but what does that mean to him? It can't possibly mean the same thing to him that it means to me.<p>Then after I wonder for awhile, I realize that it's jumping the gun because he's not even doing the easy stuff yet, much less the hard stuff, so it's really moot right now. I just can't imagine ever putting my life in his hands again or letting him in my heart again. But I realize that if he did start meeting my needs and showing insight and all, my feelings might change. I just don't know. I only know how I feel right now and how I used to feel before I knew he was capable of doing this to me. I can't picture ever feeling the way I used to feel again, at least not with him.<p>Another TV note, tonight we were watching "Leap of Faith" and Faith cheated on her fiance, and right after she started kissing the guy, my H changed the channel and didn't go back.<p>Karen, I'm so sorry about your son. I didn't know you had that history. I lost my first child, also a son, in pregnancy and I still trigger on those significant dates, too. He would be 26 now had he lived. When I think of him, I picture the man he would be, bigger than me, holding me and comforting me during stuff like this. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong> When I think of him, I picture the man he would be, bigger than me, holding me and comforting me during stuff like this. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>He is doing that. We've both got some of the very best guardian angels looking over us now, and always. Smile. You'll hug him back someday. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I've got another tv note for you: tonight being ER night (the only show I'll drop just about anything for [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ) - it looks like Mark may end up messing around with Susan!! I'm NOT impressed. Just watching what Mark and Elizabeth are going through is sending red flags a plenty to me!! I want to jump into the tv screen and tell them: look what you're doing!! Let me help you - go to MB!!!!. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Topie25:
<strong>
look what you're doing!! Let me help you - go to MB!!!!. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen</strong><hr></blockquote><p>LOL! I've never seen ER because H controls the remote and didn't like it, I guess.<p>But I do the same thing in real life. I want to clue in all the people I know in dysfunctional Ms, but I'm afraid I would offend them if they weren't seeking my advice. And sometimes maybe they don't even see their M as dysfunctional since they don't see it through our post-A MB glasses.<p>I did get the courage to send the MB newsletter to some relatives in the cities where the MB weekends were scheduled and encouraged them to go. These relatives know my situation, so I was able to share what I've learned about M here and in the books and how good the information is and how any M can be better upon learning the MB concepts. Hope they go.