SNL,
Have you read Dr Phil's "Self Matters"? Since you liked Life Strategies...you might really like this one. I'm trying to find anyone who has read it..would love a discussion.<p>I personally liked The Relationship Rescue Workbook...It was my "keep sane and get your butt in gear" homework during the Plan A/Plan B torture and indecision...it did help me regain my sense of self and control.
T

I have read all his books, and the one his son wrote (which stunk, and essentially plagerized his dad's stuff, and struck me as only written to make money)...will have to review self matters and get back to you.<p>There is another book which I am certain will be a real eye opener for you (and anyone who thinks that understanding the psychology of human relationships is of vital importance in behavioural decisions.....many don't think so but I do), it is short (and in paperback) and would really like your opinion on it.<p>Crazy Time surviving divorce and building a new life by Abigail Trafford my wife kinda went nutso when I ordered this book 8 months ago, but the title is very misleading, it is not a divorce/how to manual it is a psychological treatsie (sort of) written from the viewpoint of dozens of case histories of marital failures. It takes each one and unravels it, goes far deeper than pop psychology here is the formula to fix marriage self-help stuff (a la dr phil, MB, ruiz, and a dozen others which essentially boil down to decide to play nice and all will be well in the universe...... not that behaviour modification doesn't have it's legitimate role).... This author pulled together the expertise of psychologists/psychiatrists/therapists and put it in laymans terms, explaining the forces that drive human relationships, but doing so through the actual experiences of real people, instead of theory. She has no position on whether to stay or leave a marriage she only seeks to provide understanding of the forces driving the failure and how to understand that so you can decide how to proceed with your life (after you do life strategies of course)...she also makes no distinction between ws and bs (like most who study these things including dr phil, and the harleys)... <p>she knows that really makes no difference we are all ws/bs it is only the circumstances that determine who plays that role in a given situation...why? Cause we are all human and that is what humans do. A martital failure is not an individual failure per se, it is the failure of a dance, the marital dance, and is a "failure" of both parties, often cause they cannot dance together no matter how much they want to...why? Cause we are not robots, and can only reprogram ourselves a limited amount, but if you want to stay married she provides the tools to understand how the npsychology between two people is going to work so you can understand how good (and bad) the marriage will ever be, and choose it or not...but at least do so with understanding (this is essential reading for those of us emeshed in co-dependentcies). Anyways a fascinating book, and it one only had 3 resources IMO they would be dr phil (first) MB (second) and Crazy Time (third). Ya know, we here should do a thread on resources and compile a readong list for people to acquire when the train wreck happens and they are laying in the hospital intensive care unit wondering what the hell happened and whether they are gonna live. (strange intensive care, you feel like you are gonna die, and are almost paralyzed, but your brain works and you can read).<p>[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

S_n_L<p>
thanks for your input on this, this time it seems that you have really opened my eyes with this statemnet:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> A martital failure is not an individual failure per se, it is the failure of a dance, the marital dance, and is a "failure" of both parties, often cause they cannot dance together no matter how much they want to...why? Cause we are not robots, and can only reprogram ourselves a limited amount, but if you want to stay married she provides the tools to understand how the npsychology between two people is going to work so you can understand how good (and bad) the marriage will ever be, and choose it or not...but at least do so with understanding <hr></blockquote><p>At least do so with understanding, IMO that maybe one of the best things I have heard to date. I was driving home from work this morning thinking about the usual sad thoughts that seem to be ever present, and then it dawned on me . . . .<p>I have chosen to be here, in this place, in this situation, no one else has put ME here but ME, and since this is my choice I need to accept and face my battles, with dignity and selflessness, they are mine, I chose them, regardless of what my WW does or says, I must hold myself accountable for all of MY actions.<p>Maybe this sounds redundant, maybe I am re-programing myself, maybe I needed to wake up more than I wanted to believe. Only time will tell.<p>Thanks

SNL--I also liked CRAZY TIME, I read it either shortly before or during the time I was pursuing divorce. I don't remember much about it except I felt like less of a failure after reading it. And, if we had divorced, I'm sure I would have read it again.<p>I think as my H & I came back together, we both knew we could survive without the other, and it was a mutual choice to re-establish the marriage. Our mutual "crazy time" dance was so unhealthy that that pattern had to be broken and changed, I guess we are slow learners, or just really stubborn [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] as it took us the 7 separations to get to that point, but I appreciate having the confidence to know I would be okay without my H, even though I hope we will continue to be successful in our recovery and spend the rest of our lives together.<p>I'm only halfway through McGraw's RELATIONSHIP RESCUE audio, someone keeps taking it out of my car and putting it in the house, but I find myself thinking about the points he brings up and would recommend it.<p>[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</p>

I think Dr. Phil is a bit over-marketed (anything on Oprah is these days, although I like her too, and love her mag), but I like him too. <p>Like snl and Lor, I've read a bazillion books on relationships, marriage, infidelity, self-improvement... but ya know... I suddenly realized that all that reading wasn't taking care of me as much as I thought it was. So I stopped. <p>I think we can get caught up in the "How's and Why's" of others, trying to compare it to self, when in fact the answer was within us all the time.<p>Just something to think about.

sheryl... I think Dr. Phil is a bit over-marketed.<p>snl...ya think...lol. Yep, and I think it has gone to his head too...but whatever, he is still good at what he does...ditto oprah.<p>sheryl...I think we can get caught up in the "How's and Why's" of others, trying to compare it to self, when in fact the answer was within us all the time.<p>snl...Ok, you are pushing my rationalist buttons again....the answer lies within us huh, and what is that suppose to mean, and what do you do with it...just tweaking your tail.<p>But yeah, one can hide behind endless study and never get anywhere....you can read about baseball forever, but sooner or later ya gotta step to the plate and see what ya got in ya.<p>On the other hand if you haven't studied up, you might just stand on the plate (ouch), or hold the wrong end of the bat, or think you are suppose to clobber the catcher...or... or...or....you do gotta do some homework first.

You know Sheryl, I agree. I looked around one day and I realized My goodness... my counselor probably didn't have as many books as I did. I could open my very own self-help library.<p>I also realized that basically a lot of the ones I bought (that appealed to me) all said the SAME thing...just in different words.<p>Now, I read for fun...for my literary book club that I have recently joined.<p>I still notice that I was programed for so long, that I am still drawn to those "self-help" books...but I try to resist buying them anymore! Matter of fact, I probably still have a few I haven't read yet.

I get what new beginning is saying. <p>I did all the reading and "self exporation" stuff as well.(BTW, my H just saw it as me doing nothing about our relationsip or myself) And yes it was helpfull, but what it has helped me do is formulate a plan for my life. I think we can spend our lives reading and being introspective, but as SNL said, eventually you have to step up to the plate. Put the books down, open the curtains, brush your hair and go live life. Not just read about how to live life.<p>Needing

Hi snl, <p>I love the "step up to the plate" analogy. True enough!!<p>re: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>sheryl...I think we can get caught up in the "How's and Why's" of others, trying to compare it to self, when in fact the answer was within us all the time.<p>snl...Ok, you are pushing my rationalist buttons again....the answer lies within us huh, and what is that suppose to mean, and what do you do with it...just tweaking your tail.<hr></blockquote><p>Tweaking tail or not [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] , here's my response: <p>While I was busily "reading" and "learning" and "discussing," life was passing me by, and I ceased to have many thoughts for myself. <p>I remember reading Wayne Dyer's "Erroneous Zones" in college, and taking it to heart. I loved that book. In it, Dyer said (not a direct quote, but you'll get the drift) "People do not hurt you, you ALLOW them to hurt you." What an amazing concept, huh? So, for a few months after I read that, I listened carefully to what my body was saying - "you hurt me" would become, "I allowed that comment to hurt me"... I read lots of books then, all saying about the same thing... and I held tight to the concepts. It was all about personal responsibility and taking care of YOU and how YOU react.<p>Years later I read another book that opened my eyes to a different perspective. In it, I was told that there are some people called, "Crazymakers" who live to make life miserable for those around them. Although you have a choice how to take what they say, many of them are master manipulators, and you must protect yourself, yes, but FIRST you must look to THEM (the crazymakers) and SEE THEM for who THEY are.<p>Now, I've chosen these two ideas for a reason. In essense, these two ideas clash - one looking inward, one looking outward. But what did *I* think? Here's what I decided: I care what people think, and I hurt when people say mean things to me. THAT'S OKAY. I am NOT Wayne Dyer, I am ME. I had a very cruel neighbor/friend once who got angry and called me a "fat pig" (I was quite heavy at the time). There is no way to rationalize that comment. It hurts. It's SUPPOSE to hurt. <p>What I *could* choose to do is what I did - NOT BE FRIENDS WITH THIS PERSON. I got an apology, but sorry, that cuts so deep and they weren't a good enough friend to begin with. <p>That's a decision within ME, not some idea out of a book.<p>Does this make sense?<p>Hi Susan,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Susan:
Matter of fact, I probably still have a few I haven't read yet.<hr></blockquote><p>Me too!!! I have to laugh... in the old house, out in the garage, is the rest of my books. I have so many books that I haven't been able to get them here in the six visits with two of the biggest suitcases you have EVER seen! <p>I'd say 90% of them are along the "self help" or "spiritual" order. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Big help they did!!!!!<p>Hi needing,<p>Oh my!!!! When you said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>BTW, my H just saw it as me doing nothing about our relationsip or myself...<hr></blockquote><p>My ex thought EXACTLY the same thing. Now, part of that was because he wasn't a "reader" he was a "watcher" or a "listener" (kinda on that last thing-LOL)... and part of it was because even with alllllll those books I wasn't getting "better" in his mind. I could recite the words, but the actions didn't follow. I would read a book so fast, get a little nugget out of it, and then never open the book again. <p>That's not very helpful, is it?

Sheryl,
Well, y'know I own a used bookstore...but 2 years ago, as I was outlining yet another book to my counselor, he shook his head and advised me to put the self-help book down, back away slowly and start reading for fun. And mostly I have done that since then, though the McGraw audio did "tell" me it was for me. Yeah, the books talk to me when I'm alone in the store [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . I listen to the audio in those endless 10 minutes I'm always waiting for my kids.<p>The rest of the time I seem to have developed a fondness for murder mysteries/thrillers. Just another form of self-help [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>I don't know about the answer lying within...but I do believe in right and wrong, black & white, and I try to stay out of the gray...well, and the black too.

I would pay big money to have your job, Lor. <p>Bliss baby, bliss.<p>I've been reading these silly gumshoe type murder mysteries - The McNally series by Lawrence Sanders. The rest of his books are utter crappola (too much graphic sex; not into that scene) but these are a HOOT!<p>Oh, and James Harriet or other vets - I just read a great one called, "All my patients are under the bed" about my fav fur-faced friends - CATS!<p>[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

Hey Sheryl,<p>Yes, that is exactly it...he hasn't SEEN me getting any better or making any changes. And that was OK for a while, but now it's time to take action. For me and to actually SHOW him the changes I have chosen to make in my life.<p>Glad I'm not the only one.

turning into a book threa, whew, something not controversial, threatering, or disgusting [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I have several thousand books, dating back to my childhood days, and my favorite activity of all is spending the day at barnes and noble et al. A mix of sci-fi, historical fiction, Christian fictional novels... and non-fiction survival, camping etc. how stuff of all kinds works, psychology, science/tech, computers, how to grow bamboo, japaneese gardenes...and too much more to name [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] , also a fair selection of religion havn't gone overboard with self-help probably only 20 or so, but like sheryl noted after awhile you realize a lot of the current popular stuff is sameo sameo....or new age crappola (sorry, just my opinion).<p>The answers do lie in the books, not in ourselves...it is the solutions that lie in ourselves as we apply, modify the answers we have learned, you have to do both, undirected action has low efficacy, and of course study and no action gets nowhere either....what confuses those who watch us (those of us who are introspective, and will do the work) thinking we are doing nothing, is the timing, it is a process, we study, contemplate, maybe experiment a bit...then we take decisive action, and then they accuse us of not thinking about what we are doing....go figure.<p>Ultimately it boils dowm to living life reactively or proactively....reacters are always a step behind, and a dollar short...proactors may make mistake, even huge mistakes, but they will also get the job done, one way or another.... readers are usually proactive, cause they are seeking the counsel necessary to make a choice.

forgot to mention another category, I have a number of books about profiling (written by fbi guy) and ann rules books, I hate the stuff, scares the hell out of me (and reduces me to tears often), but since these psychopaths (and their less deadly, but still dangerous betheren the sociopaths, and the kissing cousins... personality disorders) are numerous, not easily identified, and live, amongst (and married to many)us. I feel it prudent to understand them, and how to recognize them (not easy, they are often master manipulators). I don't like murder mysteries, there is something about making murder entertaining that curdles my blood....but reading about real killers, deviants, sexual predators is illuminating about people in general....I don't know what we pay people that pursue and deal with these predators, but whatever it is, it does not even begin to be enough.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>...reading about real killers, deviants, sexual predators is illuminating about people
in general....I don't know what we pay people that pursue and deal with these predators, but whatever it is, it does not even begin to be enough. <hr></blockquote><p>Oh snl, now you're REALLY speaking my literary language!<p>My favorite books of all time are biographies -- and I am so interested in the real-life murderers like John Wayne Gacy, et al. Those are my fav bios on A & E too... one night they had CRIME NIGHT! Woo Hoo, I was in HEAVEN!

While I sit here reading Pride and Prejudice, John Adams biography, Ava's Man, and Blood Meridian.... (Giggle) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Ah Susan, you're one of those who has a partially read book in every room, just like ME! I've got two in the bedroom, two in the living room... and then a crossword book for when I get bored with the reading, and a three by the computer... sometimes I go right through a book (like I did with Harry Potter, right through one through four - barely got out of bed! LOL), but usually I have a few going at the same time! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

And me sittin' here with 2 brand spanking new gift certificates to Borders!<p>I read like crazy also...have always been one of those people who truly believes "if you can read about it, you can do it." Remodeling, car repair, sculpture, cooking...doesn't matter...if I have instructions, I can do it. This came in real handy when I divorced!<p>As far as relationship books..the MB books were the first self help books I ever read..they're a good starting place especially when the wound is so raw.<p>The Relationship Workbook by Dr Phil kept me soooo focused. I would walk on the beach for about an hour, read and do and exercise and then swim and think...so maybe it's the combination.<p>Then again, I also did the "Too Good to Leave, To Bad to Stay" book also...and found it to be an excellent eye opener.<p>I read the Ruiz books...didn't do a thing for me..too...esoteric...I'm more the pragmatic type.<p>But again, I think "Self Matters" may be the most important book I've read...infidelity or not, in terms of exploring where I came from, and where I'm going.<p>And through it all I kept up with Patricia Cornwell's mysteries, Tom Clancy's thrillers, plus some history stuff I'm into...I think reading has also been my great escape. And music. For some reason music (which has always been a big part of my life) became huge this past year...all types...could open a used CD store right now!<p>The best thing about reading all this different stuff has been what it has done for me as a professional..infidelty/relationship problems are a big source of stress for women..and I've incorporated some questions into my practice...much like we learned to with issues of abuse...and the reaction has been very good.
T

This is the first month I didn't buy a new 'self-help' book... <p>...and it is the first month I read my favorite escapism fiction... a romance novel... w/out throwing it across the room...<p>I love Nora Roberts... though not so much her 'easy' formulaic reads... her latest trilogy about some 'witches' has been kinda fun.<p>I like Amy Tan and Terry McMillan... though I wasn't really fond of McMillan's How Stella Got Her Groove Back . <p>Also like Barbara Delinsky... Coast Road just blew me away... read it a couple of years ago and even then... way pre-A, I could 'see' how sometimes it takes crisis to bring two people together...<p>I'm also a big historical fiction nut... especially the big, fat ones... I read pretty fast, so any book under 300 pages can sometimes be dissatisfying... just too quick a read...<p>Hugs to my fellow readers...
Cali

ummmmmm looooongggg (accurate) hisotorical novels...better than uh.. well.... anyways cali did you read Sarum.... (set in england) about 1200 pages....tried to read it in one setting, couldn't do it lol.... some jakes stuff, shogun of course (twice) historical fiction is probably my favorite, followed closely by sci-fi, I like clancy et al sometimes but they get old fairly quick, seen one spy thriller seen em all....have read a couple romance novels, mostly make me gag (smile) but I dunno, I am a hopeless romantic, so they are kinda fun.... last one I read was a Christian romance novel, was very good, Reedeeming Love, by francine rivers, was very good.<p>re TOW board, STAY AWAY, I only been there briefly once or twice, is not a safe place cali, nauseates and disturbs me, I don't think it is a good influence (as in all that helpful) many of those people are just plain nuts (as in haven't a clue)...maybe I should go and try to eddicate em, but I ain't up to it. It almost gives me the same response porn does, (and no, I don't use porn) the few times I have seen any porn, it is strangely fascinating, and alluring, but part of me recognized how incredibly dangerous it is, and that is enough to stop the occurence (and it incenses me this stuff occassionally pops onto my computer and subjects me to this internal conflict).... I think TOW desensitizes (and demoralizes) one to the real issues, and proper problem resolutions of infidelity.... I do think it is very normal and an integral (and necessary ) aspect of our species, but how you deal with the occurence is another matter alltogether, their is definitely right and wrong ways, and celebrateing it is the WRONG way.<p>[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>