I've heard this "monogamy isn't natural" way too many times, usually by people who don't have the urge or will to work at it. And (sorry guys), more often men who want to justify their philandering and porno/strip club addictions. Monogamy may or may not be "natural" but it still is a wonderful thing between two people. But, like anything in life, requires effort. Doesn't mean people will always succeed, but it is still a very worthwhile goal. Lets see: Cheap, meaningless sex with occasional thrills, or a lifetime commitment and satisfaction of trust and total togetherness. It seems too many of the open-marriage type people want something for nothing. They want the emotional support of a committed relationship, but the sexual (and very temporary) thrill of casual sex. Pretty lazy if you ask me and a total cop-out.<P>Hey, defecating in a toilet, eating food with utensils, and wearing clothing are all examples of "non-natural" human behavior, but it is something we are taught in order to function in relationships and in society. I don't see any studies saying we should all start walking around naked and sh*tting on the sidewalk in order to be natural and fulfilled as humans. Ha,Ha.

Hey all,<P>Decided to join the discussion here...<P>First, if I did not want a monogamous relationship I would not have gotten married in the first place. Non-monogamy is for single people IMHO, if they choose to sexual before they get married. What is the definition of marriage anyway?<P>Second, I agree with TheStudent because when I finished reading to date on this topic the first thing to come to my mind was non-monogamous marriage could equal sexual addiction. <P>If you don't know much about sexual addiction, check out an interview with Doug Weiss, a professional in the field, using Real Audio at <A HREF="http://www.lhm.org/w2w/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.lhm.org/w2w/</A> and visit Weiss' website at <A HREF="http://www.sexaddict.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.sexaddict.com</A> <P>The reason I thought of sex addiction was because 1) often the spouse of a sex addict be asked or pressured and will comply with her spouse's sexual requests in order to please his/her spouse against her own feelings and values and 2) as I am a spouse of a sex addict, it is easy in today's society (soft and hard porn, immediate gratification, etc.) to think that it is the way we should be when we try to please our spouse's sexually instead of learning about REAL sexual intimacy and fulfillment. If you want to know what real sexual intimacy and fulfillment is, read Intended for Pleasure by Dr. Wheat.<P>BTW, I am not religious or a Christian (not a judgment on either, I am just still learning about spirituality, religion, etc.). I tell you this for 2 reasons, 1) I am searching for spirituality because of an open-minded thirst for knowledge and 2) I hope that others here will not make assumptions about what I think about other topics because I agree with anyone in this topic or any other.<P>Hugz,<BR>Thoughtful<BR>

Sounds like LostSoul is talking about "polyamory." <P>This is a concept that sets my teeth on edge, because in my experience, it's used by sci-fi fandom types and other geeks to justify getting laid with multiple partners because no one outside their own circle will have them. <P>Sorry if that includes anyone here.<P>Esquire magazine recently had an article about what they called a "group marriage" that was actually a couple engaged in serial polyamory. It was NOT two couples engaged in a long-term relationship. There are groups with whom people who want to explore polyamorous relationships can get involved. And if that's what you like, and your spouse is agreeable, that's fine. Remember, it's about POJA, right? <P>Usually, however, threesomes, swapping, polyamory, and such, are done because ONE partner wants them, not both. Remember, the concept of "cheating" requires DECEIT.<P>My H used to talk a good game about polyamory too, and I made it quite clear very early in our relationship that it was not acceptable to me. Those of you who read my letter to him last week saw me mention that as well. And yet, it was HIS idea to be exclusive, HIS idea to live together, HIS idea to get married. So just how polyamorous is he?<P>Sheesh, there are times when I think it would be nice to have another guy around for those times during the week (which is almost 100% of the time) when H is tired and I'm feeling frisky. But I couldn't deal with the baggage, so I live with it.<P>I'm quite skeptical, when push comes to shove, just how "polyamorous" people really are. Ultimately, I think we like to know that the person we love isn't going to be shagging someone else while we're at the supermarket, even if that someone else is someone we know.

LostSoul,<BR>First of all, thank you for your compliment. I give that honor to God who has revealed everything to me either directly from Himself or through others such as yourself. I don't take credit for any of it because I love Him dearly.<P>I hear and feel where you are coming from. No, I don't blindly follow where He says to go because He says to study to show yourself approved. He gave all of His sentient creations free will. That is why you and I have and hold the views that we do. I weigh all the facts that are presented to me. That includes any thing that you have to say. However, you ask me to prove to you that there is a diety. I would ask that you prove that there is no deity.<P>In support of a deity existing, as mankind becomes more knowledgeable about what He has created, the evidence points to God actually existing. Science is based on repeatable facts that given several different individuals performing the same test will produce the same results. It is not based on one person's opinion or belief. The historical records (archaeology (sp is wrong), and written documents of which the Bible is included) are being shown to be insynch with each other.<P>As far as blindly following, I check out everything anyone tells me including God. I want to say questioning Him is a sin, but I haven't found a reference to support that belief. I do know that I am not to trust any man or woman just because they are an authority in this world. ALL mankind is fallible because each of us only knows part of the picture. Knowing God expands your possibilities beyond your wildest dreams which are nothing when compared to what He knows since He is the creator of all things to include what each of us knows and understands. If He did not allow us to understand we would feel as the person in Ecclesiastes. Read it and you will understand what I am saying. He too wondered if God really existed. He asks in a slightly different tone similar questions to what you ask of me.<P>The patient in the mental hospital is covered in the Bible. Everyone has a place in His creation. It is only when we don't take the entire Bible or the entirety of any situation that we are misled. Suppose we only heard the side of the complaintant in a court case and sided with the complaintant. Would that be fair to the defendant. No!! We have to take pieces of the problem into account before we conclude that something is or is not true. I am finding that with each new day that God's logiic is the only true logic. Mankind's logic is flawed because it is incomplete. It is much like having a radio that has no power source. It just won't work because a key piece is missing.<P>I listen to all who have a different perspective on a problem. Note I said perspective and not opinion. My definition of an opinion is my cursory belief about something that is based on incomplete analysis of the problem being analyzed. Once there is enough conclusive evidence to prove that something is true or a fact if you will. Then it is truth until someone else brings information to the table to disprove the fact which is also related to belief. Yet belief is still not the highest form of truth. The hihghest form of truth goes to God's level and is not refutable.<P>God be with you my friend.<P>Thoughtful,<BR>Your quest for knowledge and understanding is also defined in the Bible. We are to study to show ourselves approved. I test everything against everything. It is only through that process do you get to know what is really the truth and you eliminate any contradictions that result from stating an opinion. I find that contradictions result when a person's pride is taking over and they attempt to justify their actions. It is in the attempt to justify their actions that they become confused and get all tripped up in the justification. I think I am addressing the contradiction concept to the wrong person, but I want to throw it in because it is something I have thought about for sometime now. Please accept my apology if it was not you thoughtful. <BR>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited September 13, 1999).]

Lost Soul- It sounds as though you are fighting your own convictions. Your new idea on non-monogomous marriage would be a true delight for the aids and other virus' out there. What more can we do to make our society a bad place? I really believe God said that it's one woman for every man and for us to grow up together, which is marriage. But if that's your belief that's your belief, good luck to you!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<BR>

Hmmm, LostSoul, you left out the part where you claimed that absolute belief in something causes someone to "stagnate".<P>I am NOT a religious person, and regularly entertain the notion that I may be praying to a power that does not exist. Do you know what this does for me? It makes me unsettled. People who have that deep faith also have a foundation - a solid grounding ... something to build on. People who don't have that kind of foundation generally find some other kind of foundation, or founder and flounder through life, not really ever believing in anything - including themselves.<P>I maintain that your statement as you originally made it is as stagnant and limiting as you claim absolute belief will make others. Don't believe, as you choose. But don't try to argue that belief limits people, as I think most psychologists and history will prove you very wrong.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>No, I'm not a Marriage Counselor,<BR>But I did sleep at a <BR>Holiday Inn Express last night...<BR>

LostSoul,<P>And I wanna know which is it..... do you want to have more sex with W, or do you want to have more sex with W and an OP? In your other thread, it seems you were saying your need for sex with W was not being fulfilled. But on this thread it seems you are pondering having someone else to fulfill your sexual need, but with your W. If your W is participating, why would you need the OP?<P>Who's on first? I'm confused. Please don't leave me hangin'. Clarify.<P>Thanks.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Lost Soul,<P>Austin Powers, gotta love it.. <P>I read your reply, and thought about it. It's interesting, because you and your W are practicing complete honesty, and who wouldn't want that? But as individuals, we can only relate from our own experiences. And from my experience, I was utterly devastated over what my H did to me, and what I did to him. For me, I cannot imagine going through that pain again. If you and your W are at a place where acceptance in this regard is something you both agree upon and desire, who's to say that you're not right in what you feel (for yourselves)? I cannot imagine my H coming to me and stating that he would like to explore this, because I don't feel this way, and couldn't accept it. The pain of what I did to him, and then finding out what he did was really to much to bear. I can only say that two consenting adults have every right to practice what they truly believe is right..taking into account that there are negatives, and these have to be weighed. (I'm sure you already know those negatives).

Professor: <BR>You spoke very succinctly and very elloquently... but ultimately said very little. I believe I did not directly ask you to prove a deity but instead said that "as you cannot prove one and I cannot disprove one there is no use in conversing with that as our point of view".<P>One thing I did find interesting is that you say not believing in God is a sin... how convenient that any attempt to "question" is considered the worst offense at all... that is what Hitler did, made it a crime to question... Why is God any different? I thought in his greatest love and greatest care he would openly ask ALL his children to question everything he says knowing full well they would naturally come back to the conclusion he was right... but no, it is a SIN to question God in your eyes and therefor limits you to a fixed set of beliefs.<P>What would you do tomorrow if God asked you to do something contrary to the Bible? After all... the Bible is a finite set of words while God is an entity of limitless knowledge... are you saying you will limit yourself to ONLY what is said in the bible?<P>That none of you see this only proves my point further... how can the blind see that they are not blind? How will those who are closed EVER come to understand they are such? Ignorance is bliss my friend and while I am willing to admit I may not be right in my theory... those who say their theory is ABSOLUTE only show themselves to be charletans.<P>TheStudent:<BR>The sidewalks were covered in so much sh*t that we decided to use toilets... our society pushed in directions that controlled our behavior and actions... Correct? Now we have marriages breaking up in nearly 1/2 or 1/3.. infidelity screaming sky high... our society is AGAIN pushing in directions but THIS time you say we should resist... why is that? We did not resist when cars came along? We did not resist when disease wipes us out we adapted to it... Why is this ONE thing any different?<P>Did you know that Man is the ONLY animal/being/species capable of anhialating itself? This happens because we "fight" where nature leads us... and we even fight the society we make for ourselves.<P>Chick:<BR>God said a lot of things... but people seem to violate them all the time, why then should a person listen to only "half" of what he said... There are TOO many christians who commit adultery for us to think we are following anything<P>Terri:<BR>This conversation has stagnated... why? because I am not willing to see anything other than my view and YOU are not willing to see anything but your view... we will just keep on repeating it ad nausium.. can you not see that?<P>No, I guess you cannot otherwise you wouldn't have said so again and again and neither would I.<P>Of course the idea of there being no God unsettles you... heck, in my opinion the whole reason for creating an all-powerful, always right deity is to relieve the burdon of guilt upon your own shoulders, take the pressure of making decisions for yourself away and give them to something that is NEVER wrong... but that is just me and those who cling to it only prove MORE to me that my theory is closer to the mark.<P>New Woman:<BR>You are mixing threads here.... I believe my partner is bisexual and because of this I see it as a need she wants fulfilled. I would be a cruel and uncaring person to ignore something that is part of her (be it real or imagined). At the same time trying to enforce monogomy on someone who has feelings for both genders only makes them resent at least HALF of the world... and so what I do and what I contemplate are nothing whatsoever to do with me wanting to get laid as many have so disgustingly put it... but instead is what is sex for me (remember my definition) and that means satisfying HER.<P>People keep fixating on sex=intercourse... oh how wrong that is. I think perhaps I should have used the world "sexual fulfilment" instead of "sex" because it better describes what I am saying... Fulfilment isn't physical... its mental and part of my need for "sexual fulfilment" is to see her happy...<P>Are you FINALLY seeing that this is about something OTHER than some sleazy guy trying to lay anything in sight??? I cannot change what you think but I can attempt to explain myself better

Lost Soul,<BR>I have not limited myself. I said that I hadn't found a reference to prove or disprove that questioning Him was a sin. I feels that way. In no way am I limiting myself because I know that He is limitless. The Bible is a tiny microcosm of what He is. What is there is for mankind's feeble little mind to get a taste of what He really is. I rarely talk about God outside the confines of the Bible because most people cannot fathom that He is more than what they read in the Bible. I am beginning to believe that you also believe in Him yet choose not to obey Him. Though I am not putting you in Satan class, Satan also believes in God. Yet, Satan has to much pride to admit that he is wrong.<P>So where do you really stand when it comes to God. God can be proven, it just takes His mind to understand the fullness of Him. We have only a drop of knowledge in the bucket of all knowledge and understanding. When any one human has the entire picture then he can prove that God exists. We shall all know when judgement day comes, just as the unsaved got to see that Noah was not crazy but led by God. <P>You really do sound like you believe in Him yet want to stay in control of everything that makes your being. I too can remember when I wanted to do the same thing. I know that can never be true under any circumstances. I am really in search of His truth which answers the questions that you have. You really sound like the writer of Ecclesiastes. Read that book and see what I mean.<P>Hitler was an evil man that wanted to control everything. He did not have the answer to all the questions he had. He killed himself to relieve his anguish and to prevent others from torturing him. I truly believe that he would have been tortured if they had caught him. Hitler did what he did to protect himself. God fears no one because He created everything and everyone.<P>God does nothing that is contrary to the Bible because it is the Word. I the gaps that appear to be in the Bible are there because the great amount of detail would just baffle our minds if He were to put it all in there. Your average person can't handle Einstein' Theory of relativity which many have tried to apply to life in general. Einstein's theory applies to time and movement through space.<P>I still am looking to see where your point has been proven. Your words say that there is no God yet the tone says to me that you want the Lord to reveal Himself to you in a way that is meaningful to you as you have defined rather than you realizing that He is speaking to you continually. It appears that your proof is against yourself and that you truly long to know Him so that you can know more. <P>Knowing more is wonderful, but the most important thing in eternity is to get to know Him better with each new day. We must develop a relationship with Him just as we develop relationships with our spouses, friends, coworkers, classmates, family, etc. You sound like you want to know Him better. He loves you and wants to get to know you.<P>One last thing. God gave all the angels and mankind free will to chose to follow Him or not. That is why Satan, his name is Lucifer, chose to think he was bigger and better than God. God created him as well. We humans chose to follow God or Satan. Satan tell us the lie that we are being ourselves and that it okay. When in reality disobeying God is obeying Satan and the converse is disbeying Satan means obeying God. Satan and God are the only ones who really control because we give either one of them control. The choice is up to each individual person. You should study all literature before you make your decision. Once you have analyzed all that there is to study and learn from everyone, then make your decision. You must weigh all the evidence before you make your final decision.<P>God be with you my friend.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited September 14, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited September 14, 1999).]

Professor...<P>You are a wonderous person... truely, I have to admit that in all my travels I have never met another person who has managed to consolidate such an intricate level of logic and reason while still maintaining such an encompassing level of faith simultaneously.<P>I hope you dont read any of that as sarcastic because I truely mean it.<P>The level of subservience I hear in your voice shows great humility and I have to admit that despite whatever differences of opinion we have to actually converse with someone who appears to have acheived it is quite amazing.<P>This does however leave me on very dangerous ground... because at this very point, knowing what I know about you there is absolutely NO point in me talking to you at all... because you have shown more than once your faith is unswerving and no matter what I present to you, be their constructed or absolutely FACT you will find some way of turning them into something from God... you have the intellect to do that where others do not.<P>I can see flaws in your way of thinking (as I am sure you can in mine... see the double-bind?) but addressing them to you will do no good because you cannot see any flaws in your thinking... and if you DO you relate them to your humanity while your "sucess" you relate to God. Its the most perfectly constructed and "bulletproof" barrier I have ever seen anyone have.<P>I believe you have contradicted yourself in at least one point and I will say it only to see how you manage to get out of it.<P>"God is limitless, the bible is a SMALL fraction of what our tiny minds can comprehend".<P>It isn't exactly how you wrote it but I am paraphrasing it in my own words to make sure I understood you correctly.<P>Then you said :<P>"God would NEVER say anything outside of the Bible"<P>Well if God is limitless and the bible is only a fraction... are you telling me that the ONLY communication God will ever have with you is using the limited scope of the Bible?<P>Be careful now!! If you say NO then you are telling me he will communicate with you on things that are NOT in the bible and that means the possibility of communicating on things contradictory to the bible.<P>How? We are told as children this is how things work... not because it is true but because it is the only way our "tiny minds" can accept it... When we are older we are told the same thing again but a "new" truth comes out of the old. While strictly that old truth was not quite right... we NOW have the ability to understand more.<P>The bible is static... its frozen in time, it does not change, it does not grow, it cannot tell you something that was not always there.<P>If it is your marker to follow you are saying that because the Bible cannot grow of itself... YOU cannot grow of yourself passed it... You have therefor LIMITED yourself by doing this.<P>If you tell me that God will provide what the bible does not... then you are telling me the Bible will have less importance as time goes on...<P>To my mind it is a great contradiction. If you can show me something I have missed in all this I will be very happy because I will have learned something... but please! do NOT give me flowery answers, nor "God says so", nor anything that is so open to multiple interpretation even a blind man could call it a "rose"... Doing so would only make me think less of you for demeaning my intelligence.<P>As for my belief in God I am in two minds (if I had only ONE mind on this then I would be stagnant now wouldn't I?). If God DOES exist then there are a lot of things that do not add up, I am sure you will tell me its because my "feeble mind" is incapable of comprehending the "reason" behind some things but isn't that the biggest cop out? As parents dont we tell our children they wouldn't understand? Dont we tell them they couldn't possibly understand why mummy and daddy are fighting?<P>If God doesn't exist I have no problem with existing myself... unlike a lot of people (and I dont think you can deny such people exist) I do not need some higher power in order to get out of bed every morning.<P>The bottom line is that I am "open" to all possibilities... while you have chosen (and with every right to do so) to have but ONE choice in your life. You just seem to not understand despite the point I made above that limiting yourself to ONE choice makes it HARDER for you to grow.<P>You will refuse any teaching of a Bhudist even if it will give you wisdom, you will deny anything that comes from hindu because its a sin to even consider it... and yet these people are IN our world and part of it.. .you can NEVER say you are a student of life when you chose only to walk in half of its footsteps.<P>I have to admit though... your reference to Satan was very intriguing... is EVERYTHING that goes against you of Satan? I find it amazing that things are so black and white for you... Good=God, Bad=Satan... Usually I am the one who sees in such black and white... but then again, what was known as "chaos" theory has now been revealed to be "complexity" theory... and I am sure very few people will understand what I mean by quoting that.

Lost Soul,<BR> hmmm intresting topic you have going here.<BR>Now it's time for my 2 cents.<BR> The short version is this, H had a "friend" a friend he had for 15 years, The friend got married 5 or 6 years ago. Last year the friend started calling my H at work and inviting him to come over during h's lunch breaks, H went. One night friend and his w started having "relations" in front of h, they invited h to join them, instead of running away like the devil himself was after him (and he was) h took them up on it. It was supposed to be in h's own words "innocent illicet, kinky sex", I was never supposed to know about it and I didn't since this happened during h's lunch breaks, there was only one day when he ha missing time, and that was a day he told me he was rescuing her, because her h wouldn't give her a ride to court. But after a few times, my h and ow started to become emotionally involved. They started seeing each other w/o inviting ow's h. Well her h caught them together at my h's job one night and you can believe that all hell broke loose. As for me, I was devistated, it has been over a year now and I am still not over this. The result, h and his friend can no longer be friends, because I can't stand the thought of it, they betrayed me before, what would stop it from happening again ? H has lost the respect and trust of our son who is 18 yrs old now, he always thinks his dad is "up to something or hiding something" he almost lost his marriage, we lost everything we had together, I have loved this man for over half my life, but it's just not the same anymore. i assure you that if you take this step it will change your life an not for the better, women rarely have sex with someone just for the sex. Women have a need to give and to RECIEVE love,and when you have sex with her you are speaking the language of love to a woman, whether you mean to or not. A woman may agree in the beginning to a relationship based solely on sex, but believe me it won't stay that way. What if you develope feelings for another woman and she insists you leave your wife, then what ? Where does that leave your wife ? Get counseling for both you and your wife find out what the problem is and how YOU can help her to overcome it, but don't do this please, if you value your marriage don't.<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

LostSoul,<P>I think you may be making a bit too much of yourself on this forum. I haven't heard anyone refer to you as sleazy. Listen, if you and your W want to include one, two, three or more other people into your relationship, and the two of you enthusiastically agree, have at it! It is definitely not the lifestyle I would choose for myself, but if that's what the two of you both want......... GO FOR IT!<P>And that's what I've read the majority of folks on this forum telling you. I don't see where you feel you are somehow unique or that you are shocking us. I, for one, have been around the block or two, and have seen more than my share of different people, locations and experiences. As I said, wayyyy up above, you are not reinventing the wheel here. Please understand that.<P>If your W is bisexual, or perhaps even homosexual, maybe that is also one of the reasons she shuns sexual activity with you. Did you ever consider that? And, why are you trying to convince us about anything? Shouldn't you be discussing this with your W? Have you fully openly and honestly discussed all this with W? What did she say? I'm very interested in hearing that, because that is all that matters in your situation. Just because some of us here may agree or disagree with you isn't gonna change diddly in your relationship and marriage.<P>Tell us more of what your W has said about all of this ..........<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

LostSoul,<P>Your praise is accepted, in the intent in which it is given. You too deseve praise because you are the first person that I have met that espouses that there is no God but is actually open to exploring what is actually there. Neither of us is limited because we are open to the possibilities that God presents us continually. With enough passage of time we ALL will will better understand. We will never know it all because God is infinite and releases on that information that we need to know. I truly see where you see contradiction. I too had a problem with that when I was about 13, I tried to do my own reasoning to explain the contradiction away. It wasn't until I began allowing Him to show me all the other perspectives to truly get to the essence. This approach was the reason why I did so poorly in psychology. Everyone of those behavioralists were looking at one thing from a host of different angles like the three blind men who touched different parts of the elephant. One had the tail which he thought was a rope. One had the trunk which he thought was a snake. The third had the side which he thought was a wall. It isn't until you bring all those perspectives together do you get a more complete picture.<P>In amy attempt to be as succinct (sp?), I failed to say that everything is there in the Bible it is just that we humans can't always see the entire picture. Yes, God had man write the Bible in terms that allow OUR, mine included, feeble litle minds to begin to understand all that He is. There is no contradiction once anyone is able to see the entire picture which requires taking into account all other perspectives which also includes your perspective. it is the combination of all the perspectives that make the essence of what is true come to light. I am not saying that I have all of the picture. I am saying that I have the parts that He has revealed to me through others such as yourself. Yet, at the same time, Satan also throws his 2 cents worth in. Satan is the father of all lies as it states in the Bible. The Bible tells us we are to test the spirit by the spirit. I genuinely feel God tugging at you. He will elimnate the contradictions that you see. The contradictions cause a host of problems. That is why we are suffering because we contradict Him by disobeying. Once we obey all the contradictions go away. It is difficult now for you as well as for me. I have not yet arrived but I am convinced that I am much closer than many because I have felt really weird when no one else espoused the same concepts that I did as a literal child. God has now in the last 2 years given me more and more signs that my thoughts have definitely come from Him and are correct. I stay focused on Him because it explains things and gives me the perfect peace in the midst of the storm that everyone seeks.<P>Yes, I do see things as black and white because everything is yes/no, good/bad, etc. Theother religions that you refer to are jst that religions. There is a higher truth that goes beyond the religion. I call it truth. It is Gods truth. There was an article in the local paper that showed that these other religions talk about Jesus. The Bible says that there will be false prophets that will come and define Jesus to be something other than what and most importantly who He is. I have yet to see or hear of the other religions making such a claim. This logic is why I say that it is God's truth and not my or anyone else's truth. We each just have a perspective of His truth which is eternal and is black and white. Gray only exists as a color and because we don't have the full picture yet. I relate it to the puzzle. If you didn't have the cover on the box to help you piece it all together you would have a really hard time putting it together. That is where we are mostly. It is all the literature and the archaeological facts that help us see glimpses of the entire picture.<P>Keep striving, studying all literature (the Bible included), it will become clear. Our meeting has not been happen stance. It is to allow each of us to share what He has revealed to us individually and collectively. It has been a pleasure conversing with you. If you choose we can converse via email. I think our dialogue is more than most want to read, probably. It has been on the heavier issues than most want to deal with. EVERYONE, I am not saying that we are better because no one is better than the other because that is how God has defined it. It is just that I feel we may be boring you all with our banter.<P>My email address is regilmor@swbell.net.<P>God be with you my friend.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited September 14, 1999).]

LostSoul,<BR>Today's My Utmost for His Highest expresses more succinctly what I have been saying.<P> <A HREF="http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/utmost/devo/utmost.shtml" TARGET=_blank>http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/utmost/devo/utmost.shtml</A> <P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Professor... I will email you directly.. this forum does not need to hear this conversation. But for the record... our conversation has only made me believe even MORE that God does not exist or is not someone to put faith in... so if you say our meeting wasn't by chance and that God is talking to me... then that means God is telling me to disbelieve him right?<P>New woman... you keep on asking for what my partner has said.. and I keep telling you but still you ask ;-)<P>Just to put it clear in your mind here is what my partner thinks, has expressed to me and we have discussed :<P>- she has cheated on passed relationships<BR>- one person doesn't meet all needs<BR>- she knows she is attracted to other people<BR>- she is definately hetrosexual<BR>- she also is attracted to "some" women<BR>- the though of being a lesbian is repulsive<BR>- she doesn't think monogomy works<BR>- resentment kills relationships<BR>- if I am going to resent her because the sex<BR> isn't there at the moment she wants me to<BR> find it elsewhere<BR>- she has no problems with jealousy<P>To this I added my own thoughts :<P>- I have cheated in passed relationships too<BR>- cheating hurts VERY badly<BR>- resenting breaks relationships<BR>- Is there a way to still meet needs and not<BR> have the hurt of cheating?<BR>- Include your partner in EVERYTHING you do<BR>- If she is happy me seeing others I would<BR> like to include her in that.<P>I get the impression you refuse to stop thinking this is something I am initiating.. in actual fact I used to be strongly monogomous and thought there was one person out there I could spend my life with and meet all those "special" intimate needs. After bad relationships and seeing most of them ending as a result of cheating, or lying or simply disrespecting your partner I started to think there was a better way.<P>Bozos_Deb... what is the difference? Your H cheated on you and both of them cheated on her H.... Don't you see?? It was the cheating that caused problems!!!<P>Had the OW told her H what she was doing... or included him none of that would have happened. Had your H included you as well none of this would have happened.<P>You have given proof to my point by saying everything went wrong and the reason it did was when someone went "behind" someone elses back!<P>Is this such a hard thing to see?

I came in at the beginning, and now at the end.<P>Here's what I want to say:<P>This, being a marriage builders site, is a place where I have come to put my marriage back together. A place to bounce ideas around, a place that is safe and supportive. When I read this original post, all I could think of is, why? Why would you want to add fuel to the fire? Why would you want to make things worse than they are? I am NOT a prude, and what two people agree to do in their bedroom is their business. I don't care, honestly. I guess I just didn't expect this type of conversation here. I'd expect it in another forum, but not in a spiritually based marraige building site.<P>I hope you found the answers you were looking for.

Is it just me, or is this thread going in circles? Why debate upon the premise of trying to "get one's point across"..when as NW said, this is a matter strictly between H & W???<P>Lost Soul, you're obviously dealing with some type of inner conflict, otherwise the need to post here would not be on your agenda. If you seek help in your marriage, then others are here to offer that, and the debate is an eye opener for me, many times. But continuously stating your viewpoint, and then posting to those who try to issue a response with a "you will never comprehend my magnitude of realization, for you are not open-minded enough to do so" is not the way to engage in this. I have seen some very no-nonsense, good posts from you, and would hope that you're not here just to "stir up things" a bit...people here don't need that. I also believe we all know where we stand on this issue...it's a personal matter.

ok Lost soul,<BR> since you THINK thats the biggest problem, let me enlighten you if I may, my h and I have been married for 21 years, neither of us are the same people we were at first. Years ago very early in our marriage we did the "swap" thing, let me tell you it only made me feel cheap, and like I wasn't enough for him, even though I was also with another person at the same time he was, I can tell you real pain is involved in these things, and Lost Soul, as I said before I am not the same woman I was then, and there is no way I would have entere into my h and his friends game this time. Nor would I have ever said it was ok for him to play with out me, I most likely would have taken a rolling pin to him had he ever asked me to do that again either. <BR> You are grown and can live your life as you wish, God gave us all free will. I am only trying to warn you about the pain that is involved in these practices. I hope you will realize how shameful revealing this part of my past is for me, and see that I am only trying to keep you from going into a decision like this blind, and you never answered my question about if the ow should insist you leave your w either.<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>