...or something to that effect. <p>I've been sitting here mulling over Topies post to me on my way-too-long thread about accepting responsibility as a BS for what was wrong in your marriage. For nearly two years I've been sitting here, fists clenched, teeth gritted, stewing over everything -- nope, did nothing wrong, Could not find a thing. Tried and tried and tried agaiin to get my H to be a H. Tried being the best friend I could be, being a good wife, keeping a good house, taking on more and more of the burdens of everyday life so that he would see what a great person I really am and in turn become a good husband. (Stop chuckling at me -- you know who you are and you know you are right!) <p>Okay, lightbulb. THIS is what I did wrong. The whole nine yards. NOTHING I did was really right. Yes, my heart was in the right place. My intentions were good. But the actions denied ME, denied that he is/was a separate individual, marriage vows be damned -- he was living his own life and making his own mess and I was angry at him for not being ME. Not being like me, not wanting what I wanted, not accepting what I felt I was so obviously giving him. Trouble is, I was giving him what I wanted. I should have been giving it to myself instead. <p>Okay, I'll go finish my project now too. <p>Snow

Snow, Felt good didn't it?!! So what do you plan to do next? Have you tried the REM therapy yet? The theophostic worked great, and we start MC next week. Now that you have reached this point, hopefully your healing will follow. check in later,

Snow, I think a lot of us give our spouse what we would like, we meet their ENs as if those ENs were the same as the spouse. Forgetting that if we were exactly alike, there would be no reason to become partners. Ideally partners balance each other with their different strengths and weaknesses.<p>Have you ever read Chapman's THE FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES? It's a little like HNHN, but I found the explanations in how we show love to be really understandable. <p>I could see how my H & I are different, ie he shows love by service, I need time & conversation...and when he's loving me by caulking the windows [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I'm not feeling loved because he's not with me. But if I recognize his service...I can interpret his love, even if I don't feel it. Plus I can bring him a cup of coffee or pick up his laundry and he feels loved, even though it's just another chore for me.<p>You've had an important realization. Sometimes we don't do anything wrong, just not on target.

Oh Lor, if only my H would have shown his love to me by caulking the windows [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] We were both completely off base there. He showed his love mostly in physical ways -- groping and asking for sex. That was it as far as I could see. <p>I know now that he was incapable of demonstrating love or affection of any sort in any other way. It's no surprise that of all of the women friends we had in common before we started dating, he had slept with or otherwise messed around with all but three of us, myself, my brothers gf and my lesbian friend. That's him and that's the him that I thought I would change. No go. He is who he is and there's a lot to the disrespectful judgements idea. The whole time that I was telling myself that I didn't want to change him, I wanted to change him. Be more like me. I, like you, now accept and understand how wrong that is. <p>sf, I'm glad you checked back in. You know, the rollercoaster and the flashbacks stopped. I don't know when, I don't know how. They just quietly slipped away when I wasn't looking. Sometime after you last checked in with me, I decided that it wasn't worth it. Too painful and I let it go. I let him go. It just felt right. There were a few minor skirmishes after that but they did not feel anything like they had before. I didn't wake up with that sinking feeling in my stomach. It was over and I felt at peace. I guess that I did not want to save my marriage at any cost after all. <p>I always thought I should because I really loved him deeply, was madly in love with him for many, many years. I think that THAT love did die. I no longer feel like I have to have him by my side in order for everything to be OK. There's something else in its place, but I'm not sure what it is yet. Maybe it's me and my own well being [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . <p>Theophostic is next on my reading list, I promise. It's no surprise to me that deeper involvement in my church and accepting my own spirituality (which I also tried to deny for so long) came at the same time as that salmon smacking me in the head. <p>Thanks for checking in. <p>Snow

Excellent observation!!!<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Snow, I mentioned the "Fish" video in another thread and I checked it out at work, it is your market involved. It's a motivational, change your attitude kind of video, featuring the fish market. I guess these guys decided that just because they work in a smelly fish market that didn't mean that they couldn't enjoy their jobs, hence the flying fish. It's a great video, it's used constantly in our organization. You can check out the website at www.fishphilosophy.com [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Wasn't that around 2 weeks ago that I made that comment in your 'story' post? OMG!!! I can't believe you've been mulling over in your head all this time!!! <p>You have officially boosted my ego today. Thank you!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I'm glad I've said something to someone that has made them think! (hehehe!!) [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My H and I had major problems like you've now discovered. Even a year before the crap hit the fan, and I learned of MB, I distinctly remember H and I having conversations about this kind of thing. I would ask him why the heck he couldn't see that me doing all of his laundry, cooking, etc wasn't showing my love for him. I tried to explain to him how it shows my love b/c I care enough for you to eat and look decent in public! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] He still didn't get it. All along, what he's needed are quick kisses and grabs (and all that jazz [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ). I am not comfortable with doing that kind of thing (I never saw it growing up), and even though I needed to, I didn't. I do now though!! One of MY changes. Oh, and H does more around the house now than ever before too!! (although he still needs constant reminders [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] - MEN!!! augh!! LOL).<p>
Karen

Karen, it's funny how sometimes you latch on to one little thing that someone says and it can have a profound effect on you. You never know where you'll find something that makes it click or when you'll say somethiing that sets in motion long-needed changes in a persons life. I was a little indignant that you suggested I look to where I went wrong. Never occured to me that though I wasn't cheating, flirting, being emotionally unavailable or otherwise emotionally abusive, I might have a hand in perpetuating that type of behavior in my spouse. It probably is very much enabling behavior, but I think it's more than that too. <p>You're lucky that the both of you saw it together at some point and made the decision to work it out. Those small things -- like taking out the trash or doing the laundry -- can mean a lot when backed up by real love and companionship. At one point my H started doing more and more around the house. I would come home from working a 12 hour shift and he'd have all the laundry done and the house picked up. He'd show me what he did ("look mom, I did my chores!") and then was out the door ten minutes later ("can I go out and play now?"). And then wondered why I wasn't amorous when he came back in the middle of the night and we were all asleep ("but I did the laundry!"). He did all of the chores that I often told him took up most of my time. He was listening on that level. What I was looking for was a whole other person -- someone not only interested in doing half the work but cognizant enough to look around and see that there was more work to be done than what I was doing (caulking the windows? cleaning out the gutters? you know, not day to day stuff) and then just doing it.

Not to rag on him anymore -- truth is, I was a part of the whole thing too. I let it all happen to me. I sat around and waited and acted like a martyr, repeatedly letting him know what I wanted, repeatedly being shown that he wasn't willing to provide what I needed, repeatedly trying to make him feel bad for the condition of my life. He let me know loud and clear and often what it was he expected. I retaliated with, " No, I want you to expect...". Not in so many words but certainly by my actions. Anyway Karen, this is the thought process you set into motion and thanks for the kick in the pants. It's amazing how clueless we can be to needing it!<p>LuvDogs, thanks for the link. Interesting site. Is this the org you work for?

Thanks for checking in too, conqueror. <p>sfmc, if you're checking back in, how long did your therapy last and what did it do for you? Were you unwilling to try MC before the therapy? <p>Snow

Snow, hi. I went to 4 or 5 sessions so far, and she wanted to reach a point of closure with me before starting MC as a couple. I did go to IC previously, while we were separated, to try to make sense of me, him, the marriage, etc. I don't know if you can order the book from a christian bookstore, but here is the info I do have:
Genuine Recovery, Orientation and overview of the Basic Principles of Theophostic Ministry by, Edward M. Smith.
You can order things at: www.theophostic.com
I have always been for marriage counseling, and now we are at a point where we're both willing to give it our all. I needed to deal with my feelings about the A from almost 13 years ago, before tackling the now stuff. He has been faithful since then. We were separated due to depression and it not being addressed. So, that makes things a little strange. Although I knew of part of the A, I didn't know all until Nov 01, so it was fresh to me. The theoshostic has worked, I was very skeptical at first, but figured I didn't have anything to loose. I have a very strong faith in God, and it worked. I think it could be helpful for all types of therapy, not just recovery from an A. I think it also has been so effective so quickly because this is something that has been in me for years, once everything was revealed, there was not room for it anymore. So much forgiveness had already taken place, and life lessons learned too. It would have been entirely different if his behavior had been a pattern throughout our relationship. Thankfully it was not.
A quick overview if Theo.:
It is not guided imaging in any way.
You pray and ask GOd to take the lead and take you to a memory.
Once there, you feel everything that you felt then. Name the the feelings, and how you felt then and how you feel remebering it.
Then you ask God to expose the lies and give you the truth about everything.
For example, A person that was abused as a child, may go back to an event. The person may feel helpless, and abandoned. The person may still feel those feelings in their life, spilling over into many different areas. The truth is that during the abuse the person was helpless, but not abandoned by God, the abuser had free will also to do the horrible things, but God was still there. In the present, the person is not really helpless, but because of "lie" feelings my often feel that way.
Once the lies are reviealed and you recieve the truth in your heart, healing can occur.
It has been very benefitial to me in dealing with triggers, now I can quickly sort and find the underlying "lie" and take away its power.
The whole process sounded really hokey at first, but it worked. Since entering the therapy, God has opened so many opportunities for me. Our church offered a grief/abuse workshop for $5. It was a Fri. night and all day on Sat. It was great. SO much good info.
In the meantime, my H has been unbelievably supportive. He asks each week how the sessions went, but does not pry. He has done things lately to really show his love and I thank God for all of it.
We still will have to work on things. I think everyone if they are honest does. But I like what I see now, and I like me now.
Sorry for rambling. Let me know what you think.

Hi Snow, no I do not work for that organization, I work in a hospital library for a health region. That video is used in all sorts of different workshops and seminars within our health region.

Hehehe... my 'flying salmon' hit the first few days I started lurking here at MB and read countless articles by Dr. Harley. <p>OMG!! "I" had a part in all of this too!!! That whole environment creation prior to the A's. I wasn't too thrilled with that discovery because I couldn't be as angry with my H. Silly, huh? It took a few months to get a better grasp on my contributions to our flunking M, but that also helped me to plan A on one thing at a time.<p>The 2nd salmon whacked me when I truly realized that plan A was all about me being a better person, NOT being a 'doormat'. THAT reality was thanks to mthrrhbbrd (sp?) after she shared her story of attending single parent support meetings (Parents Without Partners) and sharing with her H (who was watching the kids) the info on the different men who were talking to her. After a short time, she stopped going to the meetings and had 'her' time (shopping, etc). Shortly after I put that strategy into play in my life, H and I were in recovery.<p>Funny... I never cared much for salmon until tonight. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

Thanks ladies for hanging around. Your insights, after all you have experienced, are precious. <p>Karen, you were way ahead of me in the game the whole time. Your emotional responses were what I had hoped mine would be. I've always been a grudge-nurturer [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] . Something I'm sure has NOT helped in my marriage. And you probably earned less gray hairs along the way because of it too. <p>I don't think any of us want to be doormats. I've never thought plan A was about that -- I've seen it much like you do now. Trouble is, I was too stubborn to implement a good one. He however did Plan A, in his own way. While it hasn't helped the marriage -- I'm still determined that it's over -- it has helped my perception of him. He's come a long way over the last two years. I think he really does see what he has done and how destructive his behavior was during our marriage, right from the starting gate. <p>sfmc, it sounds like I've done Theophostic already, to a degree, some primitive version of it. Let go, let God. I came to the realization that even though my H did not love me "enough" to never betray me, God did and does and always will. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> It would have been different if his behavior had been a pattern throughout our relationship. <hr></blockquote><p>Well, there is my line in the sand. The pattern that it became and that he can't see. I can actually understand the first 3 incidents. It happened at an awful time when neither of us were willing to "be married". It is the last 3 that just kill me, because they were so random, came at so much the "wrong" time. They don't fit his expanation because they also happend when HE claimed to be working on the marriage the hardest. <p>I really did in my heart know that something had happened when it all first started. Later, we both agreed to try and make it work. And then I believed it had stopped happeneing. He was trying to maintain the marriage and the family. He swore and vowed repeatedly that he was and had been faithful all along and would never do anything to hurt me. And then he did. And this is really the reason I can't continue. I feel like I've been down this road already, had a false recovery in a sense. And I do have the strength, but not the will, to try it yet again. <p>I'm really glad it's working out for you gals. You've worked hard and it sounds like you are doing what's best for you. I feel like I really am doing what is best for me. <p>The greatest gift I've received lately is the ability to really look at my H and tell him that I love him, because I do, and feeling no ill will towards him. At last! I want to be his friend forever and I really DO want him to find love and happiness. I know he will. I know I will. And our children will be the better for it. <p>Hee,hee, hee. I can't believe someone would apologise to ME for rambling [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen, if you guys are ever in my neck of the woods I'll make you the best salmon dinner you've ever had! Promise! Sometimes I can even get my 11 y/o to eat it!<p>Snow

Hi, here is a funny fish story for ya. My family went fishing back in the summer. Our son caught his first fish. He is 4yo. The fish was all of 3 inches long, but it fed us for two nights and tasted strangly like salmon steaks [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] He was thrilled and told the grandparents of his catch and the great dinners we had from it!!