Talitha Cumi,<p>IMHO you are in this marriage now so you need to give it a chance.. put a time limit on it.. say 6 months to a year. If the marriage is not happy and healthy after that time period, move on. I rather doubt that you want to live your life this way. There are resources out there that could help you recover your marriage no matter how terrible it feels/is today.<p>I am so sorry for the pain you are in both over your marriage and your nephew.<p>I can sympathize over the problems with your nephew. My step son (14) (SS) is in a similar situation.. it all broke loose in August. To make matters worse I am the one who discovered what happened and had to call child protective services. Why? Because if I did not, then I would be held responsible legally for not coming forth with the info. My SS was arrested in August and has not been home since. Today he is in a mental rehabilitation center. You know what, it’s the right place for him to be in right now. He is finally getting the help he needs. I will not make excuses for his actions but I will fight tooth and nail to make sure he gets the help he needs. He too was a victim of sexual abuse over a 7 year period. The victim finally became the perpetrator. He needs help. Keeping him out of the court system and away from the help he needs would serve no good purpose. I understand the pain you feel for your nephew, become his champion. Unfortunately your nephew is probably going to be tried as an adult. But there is help out there. <p>What we did was we went to the Judge, DA, Parole Officer, Attorney, etc and told them that we wanted this young man helped, not thrown on the trash pile. They have bent over backwards. <p>We should all pray that if you nephew is innocent that it comes to light. And if he is not that he gets the help he needs. The problem is that every perpetrator claims their innocence. So his claim, true or not will not be taken seriously. My nephew did this too… but I kept at him, in a loving way. Told him that the truth will get him free and enable him to repent and change. Keeping a lie will only make this behavior continue into the rest of his life. Today he is telling the truth. I’m proud of him for that.<p>Your H’s response to your nephew’s charges is not unusual. <p>You know, I think that you and your H love each other. But I think that you are on separate pages. You are a story that is very sad and you feel very misunderstood. My bet is that your H feels exactly the same way. It would be interesting to hear his side of the story. My gut feeling is that you are both good people, just lost and without the skills for building a good marriage. I don’t think your H is being vindictive on purpose. He just does not know what to do. And neither do you. There are wonderful resources available to help you recover and build your marriage. I have found that the MB material is wonderful and that the Divorce Busting material goes hand in hand giving some very concrete ideas that work wonders. The good news is that you do not have to convince your H to go to counseling with you. You can change your marriage on your own. If you change, he will be forced to change. Look, if you are dancing the waltz with your H, and you suddenly change to a tango. He has to either follow your steps or fall flat on his face. IN most relationships it is the woman who is leading the ‘dance steps’. That is just how human relationships are. <p>Your crying and demanding will only serve to drive him further away. Have you read about Plan A? I think that Plan Aing your H would be a very good idea… that means no love busters. I would also recommend the books “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters”. Then read the DB material. If you read the books, you will understand what is going on in your marriage.<p>Hope this helps.

I'm sorry honey, but you should never be forced to feel like just the wife. Being me, or what I used to be is not fun. You are so young, and although I see you trying to do wonderful things for this man's children, after reading your age I have to wonder if you could truly understand what it means to be a parent, especially since your husband and his son's mother are setting such a poor example. <p>It sounds to me as if you need to figure you out first. At 25 you should be enjoying your life and figuring out what it is that you might want from it, not trying to set this old fart up with all the spread around kids. You are not a secretary. <p>There is only shame in having 2 marriages not work out if you don't figure out why. You are in such a hurry to be something you might not be ready for. <p>If I were you and had this chance I would step back from it all and start over as the young kid you are with a clean slate. Figure out where things went wrong (you are well on your way) and then take the time to do things over again. <p>Let's trade. If I could be you I would go to college if I hadn't before, you are only on the high end of college age you know. I would get some serious counseling. I would do all the things young people are supposed to do, semester in Europe, dancing till dawn, meeting all sorts of people and experiencing them without getting involved. <p>You have gone from child to burdened adult and I am so sorry for that. <p>Elizabeth
justthewife

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>Okieman,<p>It occurs to me, that even if I accept everything you say and Talitha does as well, it is not our place to judge. It is Talitha's journey to take, the prices are hers to pay, and her rewards will be determined in the by and by.<p>She is leaning on her faith to help her see the way for her to proceed. She is not leaning on YOUR faith nor your interpretation of the bible. I believe that her faith will grow and change as she proceeds and perhaps that is God's plan. I have no idea.<p>
JL</strong><hr></blockquote><p>JL,<p>Hopefully we can help Talitha by being honest with her about what is and isn't in the Bible. As far as I can see, Okieman has not been talking about what is in "his faith" but what is in the Bible, which isn't open to private interpretation and has nothing to do with "faith." If a person has a "faith" that is not based on the Bible, that is their business, but unless it is in the Bible, then it is of man's own making - not God's. We don't get to make this up as we go along and still claim legitimacy.<p>Okieman explained exactly what is in the Bible, citing chapter and verse. We can choose to reject that if we want, however, we are not rejecting "okieman's faith" but the words of Jesus, so our argument is with the Bible, not Okieman. <p>Also, there is no place in the Bible where we are told not to judge. We are commanded in the Bible to judge right from wrong. We are told to use "righteous judgement" when make that judgement. We are told to remove the mote from our eye before we judge our brother. But nowhere are we told not to judge. That is certainly not out of Christianity. <p>That is straight out of the political correctness movement that falsely portrays this tolerant, "non-judgemental" Jesus. Sorry, but Jesus is anything BUT politically correct and would probably be kicked off most college campuses today. That is not of God, that is of society, of man. God judges the HEART of man on judgement day but WE are commanded to judge right from wrong - TODAY. Here and now.<p>To think otherwise would be to think that we are supposed to sit by and allow ignorance to prevail about God's Word. That we are supposed to sit by and watch evil prevail unchallenged in the world. Can you think of anything more pernicious? Anything more accomodating to evil?<p>John 7 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.<p>Zechariah 8 16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:<p>2 John 1 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:<p>
As far as Talitha goes, I do not know what the answer is since the marriage has come this far but I do know what the Bible says about remarriage unless in the case of death or adultery.

Melody,<p>I won't get into the Bible quote thing because one phrase out a whole work can be used as necessary. In fact, before we would start the quote war I would insist that it is deteremined WHICH translation of the Bible we would use. But, in my years I have heard lay people, the clergy, and just about anyone else use the Bible to justify some amazing things.<p>To my way of looking at things, the Bible is MY guide to life not my crutch for arguements. As for PC, I am probably the least PC person you will ever talk to or meet. However, I do chose my words with great care.<p>I DO NOT JUDGE, nor do I believe that the word judge as used in the bible is defined the way you think it is means. Here is what I do.<p>I descriminate. I believe descrimination is the mark of intelligence. I descriminate between right and wrong, I'm descriminant with the people I deal with. Are they dangerous? are the not? can they be trusted? can they not be trusted? etc<p>I assess people and situations in order to descriminate what is the right course of action and what is not. Do I want to be friends, work with or deal with someone at all.<p>BUT, I DO NOT JUDGE. In my mind God judges people and determines their worth and obedience to his word. <p>Frankly, I wonder about the interpretation and translation. I recently read that even one of the commandments was misinterpretted from the Greek. Thou shall not kill. It apparently really translated as, Thou shall not murder.<p>I am in no position to determine if that is right or wrong, but I do know the Bible was not written in English and certainly not American english. So I do have a problem with literal interpretation.<p>Here is the good news. I will find out in the by and by if I am wrong. Until then, I really don't want to argue with you or anyone else. If you feel the Bible calls you to JUDGE people well I guess you will. I surely hope your connections with God are much better than mine.<p>I will stand by my comments to Okie. Talitha's faith will evolve, so will her knowledge of her religion. It is clear she is already paying a price for her decisions and will continue to. The only real issue is whether people like yourself can or will try to help her. I hope so. <p>God Bless,<p>JL

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong> In fact, before we would start the quote war I would insist that it is deteremined WHICH translation of the Bible we would use.
I will stand by my comments to Okie. Talitha's faith will evolve, so will her knowledge of her religion. It is clear she is already paying a price for her decisions and will continue to. The only real issue is whether people like yourself can or will try to help her. I hope so. <p>God Bless,<p>JL</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi JL,<p>Hopefully, no one here will mislead a Christian about what is and isn't in the Bible as I have seen others do here. THAT is the foundation of her "faith."<p>I think it's important that when we talk about Christianity that we represent NOT our own opinion, but what it says in the Bible. If it is your opinion that judgement of a wrong act is worse or as bad as the crime itself, then so be it. But that is your opinion, and not a biblical opinion. [I should point out that 'Thou shall not Judge' ain't in the Bible] Not that some of our opinions are not important and valid [for the record I think many of your opinions are very well reasoned and on target] but they should be represented as such - our OPINION.<p>
It wouldn't really matter which translation we use because, almost without exception, they all say the same thing. I could post 10 different versions of the scriptures above and they would say the same thing. I know people like to create confusion by giving the impression that all the translations are different. But they are not. The Bible is not the world's only UNKNOWABLE book as folks would have us believe. The word versions may be different, but the meaning is the same. It's really not that hard to figure out. Some passages are, without a doubt, hard to decipher, but that does that not mean that people still don't have a responsibility to find out what it means. I find that the people who say this are always ones who haven't bothered to research the Bible and use this as an excuse to NOT learn it. God didn't give us the Bible because he thought we were too stupid to figure it out. <p>And, like you, I really do hope that Talitha finds the help she needs on this forum, regardless of who it is from. However, I don't think it's helpful to mislead her about what is or isn't in the Bible. Many may disagree on HOW she should handle her situation at this point but we don't need to confuse the situation by substituting personal philosophies about 'judgement' with Christianity. That helps noone, especially a Christian who seeks the truth.

John 7:24 :: American Standard Version (ASV)
Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.<p>John 7:24 :: Darby Translation (DARBY)
Judge not according to sight, but judge righteous judgment.<p>John 7:24 :: Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
judge not according to appearance, but the righteous judgment judge.'<p>John 7:24 :: 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."<p>John 7:24 :: Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."<p>John 7:24 :: Amplified Bible (AMP)
Be honest in your judgment and do not decide at a glance (superficially and by appearances); but judge fairly and righteously.<p>John 7:24 :: New King James Version (NKJV)
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." <p>John 7:24 :: King James Version (KJV)
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.<p>John 7:24 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB)
"Do not (1) judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." <p>John 7:24 :: New International Version (NIV-IBS)
Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>
And, like you, I really do hope that Talitha finds the help she needs on this forum, regardless of who it is from.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>To ML,
I too, hope that she gets help. I hope she gets the right help. But that is very hit-and-miss on this forum. For me, through much experience and observation, I KNOW (not feel or think) the Word of God works. Another point - most people interpret the Bible in view of the societal norms they are accustomed to. Big mistake to apply our social norms to his Word. I get a kick out of people who have never read the Bible but know all about it.

Talitha,
First off, I am a BS. My husband left for the OW.<p>I have read your post carefully, several times. In my experience and recovery from my husband's betrayal and our divorce, I have learned that patterns repeat themselves. My ex's OW was a co-worker also. He became so lost in the so-called "fog" that he convinced himself that we were never really married (emotionally mostly) and he left so quickly it was shocking. <p>It sounds as if your husband did the same with his first wife. I mean, even though you were on this rollercoaster with him, you did marry quickly once he was divorced.<p>I have also learned the importance of "alone time" after a relationship ends. Both people have to grieve what has been lost. My ex hasn't been able to do this because he is NEVER alone. He always has a woman in his life and his pattern keeps repeating. He falls in love, gets involved quickly and once reality sets in he has to move on.<p>I'm not living that way. I am happy with myself now because I grieved the end of the marriage, didn't seek another relationship to fill the void. I know that in order to be truly happy I've got to love myself first. <p>Two years after the fact, I have only dated one person (it was a short lived relationship) and I am fine with that. I too, loved me husband very much but looking back I can clearly see that he was not giving me what I needed. We all deserve to be respected, loved and cherished.<p>Your husband isn't doing that for you. I'll bet he treated his first wife exactly the same way. <p>I hope that you and your husband can get some help. And if he isn't willing, then do so for yourself and move on. You will be better for it.<p>I am in no way gloating over what is happening with you. But, it does seem to be what generally happens in these situations.<p>Good luck.
With love,
BB

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong><p>I DO NOT JUDGE, nor do I believe that the word judge as used in the bible is defined the way you think it is means. Here is what I do.<p>I descriminate. I believe descrimination is the mark of intelligence. I descriminate between right and wrong, <p>BUT, I DO NOT JUDGE. In my mind God judges people and determines their worth and obedience to his word. <p>Frankly, I wonder about the interpretation and translation. I recently read that even one of the commandments was misinterpretted from the Greek. Thou shall not kill. It apparently really translated as, Thou shall not murder.<p>I am in no position to determine if that is right or wrong, but I do know the Bible was not written in English and certainly not American english. So I do have a problem with literal interpretation.<p>
JL</strong><hr></blockquote><p>JL,<p>Not to beat a horse to death here, but if you don't believe in a "literal translation" of the Bible and claim that the Bible cannot be understood because of the different versions, then on WHAT do you base your opinion? I have backed up my opinion with scriptures, which you disdain and say can be made to say anything, so then just WHAT do you base your opinions ON, if not scripture?<p>[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</p>

ML,<p>You can search this site from top to bottom and you won't find me quoting the Bible. Why? Well, not all of the people who post here are Christians. Second, I have never considered my self a Biblical scholar. However, I do know a few and they spend lengthy periods of their lives trying to understand and interpret the Bible. There is still constant debate about the dead sea scrolls. There is a considerable difference in how Catholics, Protestants, and groups within the Protestant demoninations interpret the Bible. Not on the big things but on the small but important things. I don't know who is right. Do you???<p>Finally, here is what I do "suspect". Jesus preached in parables. Why do you suppose that was??? You don't know and neither do I but I will offer you my opinion. He preached in parables because each person hearing those parables would take from it what they needed. They would be convicted via their personal experiences.<p>I will break my own rule for just this thread. I do recall a story of a "fallen woman" and Jesus said to the masses "he without sin cast the first stone". Now maybe I am wacked out here, but that seems to me to indicate that people being the Judge and executioner were not what he wanted.<p>I know sin when I see it. I try to avoid sin, but that doesn't mean I can JUDGE a persons sin.<p>Now if you don't agree with that. Fine. <p>You tell Talitha how exactly she should run her life. You tell here how you have Judged her and what her penalties will be for her sins. Your choice Okie and ML. Not mine.<p>But, please recall most of the people posting to her have suggested that she see her minister. I am relatively sure that the minister will appraise her of her biblical shortcomings.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: Just a question. If the Bible is so crytal clear and unambigious then why do we have so many translations? What was wrong with the King James version?? And of course, why do we need Biblical scholars? You see, I see actions where according to your statements no were needed.<p>I will say again. You have been blessed with a mind that KNOWS the truths. I was blessed with a mind that constantly questions and loves new insights. Good thing God didn't makes us all the same. It would really be boring. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]<p>[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

Melody, Okie, and JL --
Would you please start a new thread for your debate?<p>Talitha -- I am sorry to hear your H's words. Have you shown him any of the MB material yet?<p>I know you expected him to support your sadness about your nephew -- but please understand that it was your own expectations that disappointed you -- not H. <p>Keep reading and posting.

Lexxy, <p>Thanks for your support. I haven't shown my H too much On MB only becuz I'm afraid he will see of my true feelings for my "x"... <p>I have tried to coax him on reading more material and halfway succeeded on taking the Top 5 emotional needs for both of us... what I mean by that is he really didn't know what all that means.<p>I went to church last night, we are having a great revival and I poured every feeling I've felt, confessed every sin I knew of and even those I might have forgotten, I received such a special blessing from Him.. however He is dealing with me on some specific issues..<p>For example, The lies I've told my H while we were in our affair, that i have never confessed to him. I plan on revealing some shocking info to him even with regards to my "x"..<p>I'm first praying that God will prepare his heart to receive this info with understanding and forgiveness hopefully, and also for courage on my part to practice radical honesty from here on out.. I feel this would take alot of pressure off of us and the strain on our marriage.<p>JL, ML, and Okie, Thanks for your bible knowledge you bring to this forum, although I would have to agree mostly with JL, although there are some absolutes that ML and okie do state that I do agree with also, Like pointing out when your fellow brothers and sisters in CHrist are in error. <p>But not with regards to the "judging part" Like JL, said It really depends on my own walk with God and with respect to all of you, I know God has never let me down and I don't plan on HIM doing so either as long as I keep trusting IN him, i will be okay. <p>JL, where is your profile? or maybe the correct question is how do you view other posters profile? YOur story sounds interesting to me, just based on what you've typed ..

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>ML,<p>You can search this site from top to bottom and you won't find me quoting the Bible. Why? Well, not all of the people who post here are Christians. Second, I have never considered my self a Biblical scholar. However, I do know a few and they spend lengthy periods of their lives trying to understand and interpret the Bible. There is still constant debate about the dead sea scrolls.
[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hey JL,<p>Thanks for the explanation. My only issue with your remarks is that it be made crystal clear that they represent your *OWN* opinion and not Christian doctrine. As you explained, you are not a scholar and cannot interpret the Bible and never rely on scripture. That's fine but you can't present your views as Christian doctrine. I think it's real important to be clear on that part. We don't have license to present our personal opinions as Christianity.<p>As far as your opinion on "judgement" I think we will have to leave it as such, an opinion. For myself, I will stick with what it says in the Bible and let the scriptures speak for themselves.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong><p>You tell Talitha how exactly she should run her life. You tell here how you have Judged her and what her penalties will be for her sins. Your choice Okie and ML. Not mine.<p> ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Now you are trying to put words in my mouth. I have not judged Talitha, that is not the point here. She knows right from wrong and has judged that she made a mistake. She doesn't need to hear it from me - she already knows it. It's not an issue and never was the issue - my issue was always with your inaccurate representation of Christian doctrine. Talitha needs to hear how to move forward at this point. <p>Talitha, I wholeheartedly agree with the others that you need to see your pastor for counseling. You stated above that yours is a big church that might not have such a service, but I would be shocked if that were the case. Even big churches have counseling staffs so I would definately call. The duty of a pastor is to counsel and lead his members, so don't feel bad about contacting him - it is his job. Even if your H won't go at first, they can help you deal with the situation. <p>And I apologize for the dissension on your thread.

Dear Talitha,
You are going to make it. Please don't think that I meant that God would not intervene in your marriage. God is so merciful! He meets us where we are. His arms are long enough to reach you right where you are in your faith. Sometimes we try to put Him in a box with our limited ways of thinking.<p>I don't believe that God condemns us when we miss it (sin) and then ask for forgiveness! That's what the enemy does--he tempts us, then beats us up with guilt after we give in. God gently warns us, and He helps us avoid temptation always giving us a way out.<p>I don't believe God is totally against divorce. I'm sorry. I don't agree with anyone staying in a physically abusive marriage--regardless. I also don't agree that adultery is an excuse for divorce, adultery causes hardened hearts, hence, divorce...<p>You sound so tenderhearted toward God. Your H was really having a bad time empathizing with you regarding your nephew. Very insensitive. But that's okay. He planted some seeds right there.<p>You just focus on improving yourself right now. That is what MB is about. Being the best spouse we can be. Meeting our spouses' top emotional needs and no love busting, filling the love bank. It will come back to you.<p>Your heart is set on making your marriage work, then you shall do it. God WILL intervene because of YOUR faithfulness. That's what I believe.<p>If we miss God, He will find us! You're gonna make it. I agree that showing your H this forum might not be all that good of an idea, but you can print out the concepts and share with him. Especially the basics. Start with the basics and the Policy of Joint Agreement. Let him know that you are not enthusiastic about his ex's involvement that has nothing to do with the kids or overstepping her boundaries as far as using you for babysitting. Good luck!

Up until now, your marriage has been all in your hands. Now, you can put it in God's hands and just trust Him with it. Your H's decisions can be divinely directed of God, you have the right to pray that request. No, you cannot make your H stay if he wants to leave, but you can work on yourself. You can trust God. That doesn't mean being passive. To me, trusting God means a lot of work to quiet our busy minds when we don't have all the answers. Are you doing okay today???<p>p.s.What I meant when I said your H planted some seeds... I meant what goes around comes around.

Has anyone linked this page? http://www.newlife.com/answers/steve_answer012.html<p>Sorry, I did not read through the six pages of replies.