jl...I am sick of hearing this twisted into some strange statement that you can just fall in love with anyone by being nice to them. Now there is better than even money my experiences in this department exceed yours. So I will say from my experience you can by being nice, courteous, pleasant, and helpful to people make a lot of friends and even deep friends. BUT, one doesn't want to marry all of them or perhaps any of them.<p>snl...I gather from other posts, your experiences do far exceed mine, but then since I have only had 1 serious relationship (and I married her), one could say I am pretty naive. So your statement intrigues me, you have apparently been in situations meeting needs, and nothing came of it....how does that jive with the LB therory? That you love whoever meets your needs? And if that is not what love is (meeting needs) then in fact some other force is at work, what I use "fit" to illustrate....so why does this seem to cause such consternation? And I only use the extrenmes to set the end points, I realize it is a continuum, so how does one tell when they don't fit well enough to want to remain married, vs fit well enought to be happily married? Don't we all have to make such decisions?<p>My complaint is I am told my feelings don't count, they are a fog, make no sense, that of course we fit well enough to be married, how can anyone know that, unless they are saying fit doesn't matter? If fit matters, then shouldn't the emphasis be first on assessing whether one wants to do this? But that is not what happens, we move right into just do it, and see what happens. That is similar to suggesting you marry one of those women you had a good relationship with, and then do all this work, and see if you fall in love... but you would object to that...right? So what am I missing here in my understanding of how successful intimacy is achieved, and the components of said intimacy.<p>As for the harleys, I asked steve that specifically, whether any 2 normal and decent people can be successfully married, he said yes...I don't know what else to tell you jl, that is their underlying assumption, there is no consideration of fit, except as a result of one partner being dysfunctional. It is a fundamental difference of opinion. Now maybe steve would back off of that categorically, we have a lot of give and take back and forth and a lot is said, but that is what I asked, and that is what he said....assuming he heard my question right. I think fit matters a lot, I don't think very many marriages are successful (as in being safe, joyous, nurturing places....as opposed to places where people give up parts of who they are, and work hard at not rocking the boat, for security and safe sex)... I think the ones that do work are because the people in them fit very well and truly um..... click together, and I doubt very very seriously they would be as happy with most anyone else.... I have read people here say specifically they are pretty sure they could have chosen more wisely a mate, and would do so if could do life over (and not cause of affair stuff, but just cause of who the person is, and how they live their life), but since this is what they have they will make the best of it, and are reasonably content, or cannot bear subjecting their spouse to the pain of rejection.... that is so so sad a commentary on what marriage should be...for both parties..... yet you know what, they will never tell their spouse that, so much for radical honesty.<p>Anyways, thanks for you comments, I know I try your patience.

SNL,<p>I am a pretty ordinary guy and my W is a pretty ordinary woman. We married. The answer Steve Harley gave you is correct. Meeting needs doesn't not mean love and marriage. It may rekindle love and save a marriage, but this is not a reversible situation.<p>I do hope you recall this is Marriage Builders, and in the case of the particular parts of the site being posted on here, it is Marriage Rebuilders. The concept of meeting needs is used here to rebuild and strengthen a marriage. It is often suggest that couples contemplating marriage read His Needs Her Needs. But it is not suggested or even considered that any two random people would feel the need or find much use in reading that book.<p>Most of my friends (male and female) it can truely be said I fill some need or needs for them, but I am not in love with them. I will say that in the women I dated some chased me, some I chased, but I only married one and that was in my 30's.<p>Meeting needs is only part of the equation. What you have often heard here is that if you once loved your W, then meeting each other's needs could and hopefully would help restore your marriage. Frankly, it really doesn't sound as if you have tried that, so this part of the discussion is moot.<p>But, the point is just meeting needs is not enough. Although, as I have pointed out before, there are reported cases with people (primarily women) falling in love with their kidnappers. Dependency can do that.<p>This is far to complex a situation to make Grand generalizations about, but what the data seems to show it that people can stay in horrible marriage, people will leave good marriages, but successful marriages are considerably strengthened when the couple address the needs of the other. Even bad marriages can.<p>However, in my mind even this is slightly misused. You see to me Plan A is about self inspection, changing things in ones behavior that is KNOWN to bother the other spouse. Making changes that we want or need to make. Is that a need of the spouse, maybe. But, it does make the spouse more comfortable and that cannot hurt.<p>In any event, enough. In my mind Steve Harley answered your question truthfully, but it said nothing about meeting needs making any two people falling in love and marrying.<p>No matter how you want to twist it, argue against it, or embrace it, the fact of the matter is your marriage or the end of your marriage is going to hinge on how you address the issues between you and your W.<p>Good luck and God Bless,<p>JL

JL - What you said about any two people can be in love. I was on the phone when H asked Steve that. Steve said that any two people, who seek to date the other person, persue the other person, meeting some of each others emotional needs, can fall in-love. Steve never once said that two people off the street could immediately get married and fall in-love. There is this attraction that draws one to another. I remember the conversation he had about the arranged marriages. These marriages have a good survival rate. He stated something about that the parents looked for stable men/women, stable money, they didn't go in the dumpster to find anyone. They researched these men/women and picked one wisely. These mates were picked with to-be-family choices. When the man and wife were married, that was their first meeting. These marriages worked, cause the young couple knew their parents were looking out for the best interest of their son/daughter. The couple entered the marriage with trust and desire (love to the parents for making a good selection) to make this marriage work. I remember distinctly that he said these young people put 100% effort into this marriage, and most of them work.<p>That is what is lacking in our marriage. SNL hasn't made a commitment, isn't following the path of MB, and when asked what path SNL is taking, there was no answer to give. <p>I am frustrated, and feel so much like a loser, doormat, etc. SNL needs to be honest with me, and you people on the board. Yes, I have read where H has written over and over fitting. It seems that, this fantasy is all he wants, no one has a perfect fitting marriage. Humans change all the time. Like you SNL, you said you don't like chocolate as much as you did, he used to eat lots of chocolate items before. Isn't this a change? SNL used to like going on roller coaster rides. Now it makes him sick. Changes happen all the time.<p>Yes, I am burnt out, I was doing the no LB (not 100%) but tried, I was meeting some of his emotional needs, and as you can see in his posts, he didn't want me to meet his needs. There is the answer, he doesn't want Thinker. And he stated he doesn't want to meet my emotional needs. Once again is the answer, he doesn't want Thinker. JL -I thankyou for your post, but H is set in his ways. It seems that H feels what he does is right, and what everyone tells him is wrong. Do you see the frustration. I know we could have a good marriage, we were in love at one time. Love doesn't come naturally, it is by working on each others emotional needs. <p>I am distancing myself from H. He has made it loud and clear by his actions, he doesn't want me to be his wife. He moved out of the bedroom 2 nights ago, with my advice. He would come to bed at 3am, 5am, 1am, and then during the day say I am too tired, and take a nap. Of course he is on the computer. H has made it clear, that I am nothing to him, just an organizer for his mess. Would you H's call your wife a fu**ing B*t*h when they get angry. H did today, did yesterday, he says I know which buttons to press. Can't remember how yesterdays started, but today, he said he is ready to work on the papers. Like I am suppose to sit and wait for him all the time. He actually said that when I asked him about calling me a name. He said to me, the opportunity was there for you and you didn't take it. I told him I started another project, and basically he said what I was doing was not important. But for him to sit on the boards is more important than doing the paperwork and bills. So I asked am I suppose to wait for you to say go, and he basically said decide for yourself what is more important.<p>A little ego trip here. <p>Our marriage is doomed, so why try to do anything here? Why try to organize, why try to do paperwork, I guess what would be nice for a few weeks is to read books, and exercise and do what I would like to do. No worry about anything, just do what thinker wants to do, when I want to do it, and how I want to do it. (sounds familiar).<p>Also, asked me if I wanted to go on a service call with him tonight. I first said, why do you want to go with a fu**ing B*t*h? He comes back with you are not going to talk to me that way. Which I should not have. Then I said why do you want me to go? He came back with why do you want to go. I didn't say I would go in the first place. I told him you answer first. He said so we could do something together. He has made it quite obvious that he didn't want to do anything together today, but maybe work on the bills. This is how our day goes. There is no reason to stay here, there is no reason to expect this marriage to be saved, not with this attitude, and statements H makes. H is done, has been done since he found his lover in Arizona. H also has a hard time in forgetting about the past. It is like a crutch justifying his actions now. I hear about the past so much. He is suppose to forget the past and move on. A very unhappy person here.<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>