That would really depend...I'd lean towards "NO FRICKING WAY!!!" right away, but in my heart, I know I had have to find out why and what the problem is before just moving on. <p>In all fairness, this questions can't be honestly answered unless happens (God forbid.)

HD...I guess you never really know what you are going to do until you are actually put in that situation.<p>snl...True of course, but still don't we all try to have some gameplan for life...and what are the consequences of not following it? <p>HD...As someone who has been betrayed twice, I can say that the first time it happened 11 years ago I said exactly the same thing. However, when it happened again 9 years later, I found myself still wanting to recover.<p>snl...This is something that does happen, actually often, and I wonder why, what does that say about someone?<p>1. Does it say they are are um..... kind, and caring, and believe in 2nd and more chances?<p>2. Does it say they simply are too afraid (and that is not unreasonable, lot of risk in starting over) to start over, and will accept less and less in life till some bottom is reached?<p>3. Are they dependent, lost their identity, and are unable to end the marriage (letting their spouse dictate these things).<p>4. Do they truly believe the 2nd (or more) affairs really aren't revealing the truth about someone? (that they are not marriage material for them).<p>5. Do they feel they aren't worthy of anyone else (no one else would love them) so accept what they can get.<p>Hope this is not insensitive HD, I am just wondering, and I do wish you the best... Accepting multiple affairs (and who knows how many you may not have uncovered), but even if just a 2nd one, is a huge deal.....much much more serious than a first one. I have noticed a disturbing trend (especially amongst female bs, not so much male bs) of just accepting their H has serious flaws (abused, serial affairs, alcoholism, neglect etc.) and just sorta figuring it is their lot in life to take care of these men, they don't approve, are not particularly happy, but they will be the trooper, and hold the family together, claiming they love the jerk anyways (what else can they sat?)...why do they do this, clearly has nothing to do with love, love is about mutual protection, safety, nurturing....so what is it? (not saying this all applies to you HD, not familiar with your circumstances at the moment, your post just prompted this re the issue of 2nd chances). So where does it end, 3rd chance, 4th and why there? Why not 20 chances, why not a lifetime of repeated infidelity? The only boundary that makes sense is the 2nd one, the rest are all the same, the first you learn, the 2nd is the deal breaker, if not, something is amiss for sure IMO.

I am still wondering if I am going to make it through this one - a 2nd one - NO!!! I will not go through this again. I have given him so many chances already, and think I am about to have another discovery of contact... NO MORE this time or ever.
S

No mas.<p>After learning all about what he should have/could have done to protect himself from other women, from "falling into an A", he has no more excuses for making such an error again. <p>My H was vulnerable to an OW the first time. Now he is supposedly wiser. Steps have been taken to guaruntee he doesn't find himself in potentially compromising situations. <p>And there ARE other options to having an A. Trying to communicate/negotiate with me on whatever he considers an unmet need, getting us into counseling, being open and honest with me about an attraction going on....or just flat out asking for a divorce. <p>We both learned an A is a destructive, hurtful choice. It is is a non-option. And to choose it again, after all the crap we've gone thru...would just be passive-aggressive beyond words. <p>I now trust my H to a certain extent--meaning no longer blindly. But I trust myself even more to know when someone is toxic in my life.

I&#8217;m going to have to side with the &#8220;can&#8217;t honestly say side&#8221;. Look, lets face, it pre D-Day we all made delusional statements to the effect of never standing for it, yet here we are. That&#8217;s my answer after careful consideration.<p>Now if you&#8217;re interested in my hip shot answer it would go something like this. No I wouldn&#8217;t be aiming for recovery, I&#8217;d be Aiming for an imaginary bulls eye centered somewhere between her eyes. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>oz

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
True of course, but still don't we all try to have some gameplan for life...and what are the consequences of not following it? <hr></blockquote><p>Of course we can have a gameplan, and a lot of times we do. I think that what I was trying to say is that we can tell ourselves what we would do if we were ever thrown into a traumatic situation, but until we are really "under fire," you sometimes just never know how you will truly react.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>HD...As someone who has been betrayed twice, I can say that the first time it happened 11 years ago I said exactly the same thing. However, when it happened again 9 years later, I found myself still wanting to recover.<p>snl...This is something that does happen, actually often, and I wonder why, what does that say about someone?<p>1. Does it say they are are um..... kind, and caring, and believe in 2nd and more chances?<hr></blockquote><p>Maybe, to a certain extent. It obviously depends a lot on the current situation.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2. Does it say they simply are too afraid (and that is not unreasonable, lot of risk in starting over) to start over, and will accept less and less in life till some bottom is reached?<hr></blockquote><p>Good question. I'm sure in some cases that's true as well. In my case we had a 2 year old daughter, so it made things a little more complicated then the first time around. I thought I owed it to her to try and reconcile so that she could have a happy home. My parents were divorced when I was a child, and I want to avoid putting my own kids through that if I can.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>3. Are they dependent, lost their identity, and are unable to end the marriage (letting their spouse dictate these things).<hr></blockquote><p>In my case, no. I've never thought I had an identity crisis - although I did go through a bout of depression for about six months during recovery. We both are well compensated in our professions, and I could live very well financially on my own. Neither of us really dictates things to the other.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>4. Do they truly believe the 2nd (or more) affairs really aren't revealing the truth about someone? (that they are not marriage material for them).<hr></blockquote><p>Of course not! It reveals quite a bit. The first time you like to think that it was an anomaly - that they would never ever do that again because of the pain involved. The second time you realize that maybe this person will always have some kind of weakness, and that it's up to you as a couple to recognize it and always be on the lookout for future vulnerabilities.<p>As far as being marriage material...well, I think a person needs to look at the marriage as a whole. Were most of the times with this person happy? Was there always conflict? If you took the affair away would you truly think that this person was special? etc... There's no easy answer to it, and everyone is different.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>5. Do they feel they aren't worthy of anyone else (no one else would love them) so accept what they can get. <hr></blockquote><p>The self-esteem of a betrayed spouse certainly goes through a lot during a period like this, and thoughts like that do inevitably enter your mind early on. However, over time I think it does fade.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Accepting multiple affairs...is a huge deal.....much much more serious than a first one.<hr></blockquote><p>Yes. I'll grant you that.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I have noticed a disturbing trend (especially amongst female bs, not so much male bs) of just accepting their H has serious flaws (abused, serial affairs, alcoholism, neglect etc.) and just sorta figuring it is their lot in life to take care of these men, they don't approve, are not particularly happy, but they will be the trooper, and hold the family together, claiming they love the jerk anyways (what else can they sat?)...why do they do this, clearly has nothing to do with love, love is about mutual protection, safety, nurturing....so what is it? <hr></blockquote><p>I really don't know the answer to that. That trend may exist, and in some cases it could be because the wife has self-esteem or identity/dependency issues. But love is a strange thing. It's not easy to define or translate into words. Love can be about protection, safety, nurturing, etc, but in cases like what you describe above a lot of times we aren't getting the whole picture of what is actually going on. A spouse may be miserable and stay with a mate simply because they don't believe in divorce, but I think more often they just try to look and see that there are more positives than negatives...so they stay, and try again.<p>Also, I don't know from your post if you know this or not, but I'm a guy. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>So where does it end, 3rd chance, 4th and why there? Why not 20 chances, why not a lifetime of repeated infidelity? The only boundary that makes sense is the 2nd one, the rest are all the same, the first you learn, the 2nd is the deal breaker, if not, something is amiss for sure IMO.<hr></blockquote><p>I think it ends when the betrayed spouse has finally had enough. Only they know when that is. The idea that the only boundary being the 2nd is just an opinion. <p>In my case, my wife's second affair was nine years after the first. We were at a much different place in our lives. I struggled initially with whether or not to end the marriage, but after weighing everything I found that I still loved her. There are so many good things about her. Yes, she does have her flaws - we all do - but she has made the commitment to try and work through it. <p>She showed incredible remorse for what happened. In her case she never set out to have an affair. It was just the result of an office friendship that grew and grew into something else. Dr. Harley has described very well how affairs first happen, and he has described her situation to a "T" in the book "Surviving an Affair." <p>She had some Emotional Needs that were not being met by me at the time, and not really knowing what that was (we didn't have the benefit of this website then), it was difficult for her to identify exactly why she was developing feelings for this other man. All she knew was that she liked being around him, and the more she was around him, the more she became attracted to him. By the time they both expressed their feelings for one another, it was too late. They were off and running to the motel room for their get togethers. By the way, the other man is also married, and I don't know if this was his first affair or not. <p>One of the things that gave me the hope that we could recover was that she actually ended the affair herself, and then she told me about it. She had incredible guilt over what she was doing (increased even more by the knowledge that it was a second time), and wanted to come clean with me so that we could work on what was wrong with our marriage. <p>Ever since then she has been an open book with me, and has been willing to do whatever was necessary to win back my trust and to repair the damage that was done. I'm lucky in a sense, because not all of the people here have had a spouse that was willing to do that. I figured it would have been an incredible waste if I at least didn't try.<p>So that's it! <p>Whew! <p>I think that's my longest post ever! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>-HD

No. <p>Does the ease with which I say that reflect an emotion or feeling that is hindering recovery? <p>hg

My H had two A. He came clean on his own a couple of years later so I already had two to deal with but only one d-day. D-day was almost two years ago. <p>While watching Oprah the other day Dr. Phil said something to the effect about once the BS has made the WS fully aware of the hurt they have caused them then if they cheat again they do so knowing full well the damage they will cause to their spouse.<p>Not that they shouldn't have known in the first place but there may be a difference as they maybe hadn't lived through the BS pain the first time. Hope this makes sense.<p>So my answer is no. If my H ever does it again he'll only find an attorney there to give his sorry excuses to.
MM

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>br...So if he did it again...he'd be doing it with full knowledge of exactly what kind of hurt he'd be causing me. It would also indicate to me, after all this work on rebuilding trust, that there was no way to trust him.
snl...Not to downplay any hurt hurts, but that is not really the point IMO, and affairs aren't about the bs (or their hurt) anyways usually. It is the trust issue that is key IMO... the successful intimate human relationship we call marriage has a foundation built on trust, without it love cannot exist, and without love, intimacy does not exist....only accomodation/settleing are possible.<hr></blockquote><p>Spoken like a WS that has really doesn't "get it". Look, I know that affairs are not about the BS or their pain. But the question was about the me, the BS, and what would I do.<p>I know that I needa spouse who will protect me from himself. A second affair would indicate that my spouse was unwilling to protect me. This is not a question about the WS, its a question about me and MY needs.
The whys and wherefores as to the WS's motivations is irrelevant to the question in my situation. We've done all this work, and we are no longer uninformed about what it takes to be married and to protect each other. One reason I've been willing to give my H another chance was because he didn't understand any better than I did about what it took to be married. We both agreed to things that harmed us, out of ignorance.<p>Right now my H is walking walk and talking the talk. His willingness to protect me from this happening again is really why I was able to risk recovery. IF his selfishness takes over, and he doesn't use the tools we have been given to protect me from his weaknesses...then most likely, all bets are off.<p>Why most likely? Because my initial reaction is, No way in hell would he get another chance. But the reality is I don't really know until I am in the situation.<p>And snl...just because a WS has proven him/herself not to be marriage material - it doesn't necessarily follow that there is something wrong with the BS for staying (codependency, fear, low self-esteem). Maybe the BS made that decision for other reasons (shrug).<p>I know there are alot of people that think my taking my H back after years of abuse and dysfunction on both sides was a decision based on fear and weakness. It wasn't, but its also an indication of my new found self-esteem that I don't find it necessary to defend or explain my reasons to everyone out there who questions my mental health.<p>People make decisions to stay in marriages all the time for reasons that have nothing to do with emotional health or dysfunction.<p>Sometimes, it's just called responsiblitily and obligation. Its that simple.

br, this was about multiple affairs (starting at 2), I think I pretty much said what you said.<p>As for reasons why a bs might stay again, I was pretty much just throwing out notions, sure there is lots more. But for the most part, I don't think there is any particularly good reason to continue to live in intimacy with multiple infidelity....either there is something seriously wrong with the individual, or something seriously wrong with the marriage (which gets into what infidelity actually is, but that is another issue).....nor do I think people change very much, a fact verified by the psychologists. It is conceiveable (barely) that #2 could be a pivot point, depending on circumstances, which would have to be looked at very very hard....should mean the marriage is not really a safe place for either ws or bs, they don't fit.....but could be cause the ws is dysfunctional in a way that leads to affairs, but if protected from them, and watched closely, could maybe be faithful (but never safe)...the question is, why on earth would one want to be in such a marriage, why not just be friends with them? <p>I like a lot of MB stuff, but I don't believe in protecting the marriage (from affairs per se, but I do believe in some of the things they call protections), if you are in-love it is unncessary (something harley says as well in his last book), you protect from weaknesses or ignorance, so since most marriages are not intially based on love (IMO, but that is another issue too), until that issue is resolved, and people choose each other out of proper knowledge and intent, makes sense to apply rules of protection.....but once one is aware of infidelity, and how it happens, nothing to protect against....personally I would prefer no protection, and simply divorce if infidelity occurs, (and be friends whatever, but accept that individual is not possible for me to have an intimate relationship with, don't fit well enough). I think people take infidelity a little too lightly often, I think it really does say alot about how you fit someone (and the likelihood you will have a safe, joyous, nurturing life with them), and is a natural consequence of bad fit. That makes people angry, cause many want to believe in the fairytale, and live happily ever after.... I think there are anthropological reasons for that, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion.<p>btw, from what I know (and you have posted re your circumstances) I don't think you took him back out of fear br, but I do have an opinion, which I will tell you sometime if you really want to know (it is not appropriate to just say it without your permission).<p>[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

i have allready given this alot of thought. i learned how strong i really am- there is not a chance in he** i would put myself or my children in this situation again. not that i put us here, my husband made that choice all on his own. i have always had a very vengefull side-- if he ever chose to do this again i would do a lot of things differently. i would keep my mouth shut, i allready know i can endure the pain, collect all the info i need and then meticously take their lives apart one piece at a time. all the while being the loving wife at home. they wouldnt even see me coming. i behaved myself this time, never confronted her, never screamed at him or love busted, just put my mind to repairing my marriage. this is my second marriage and i think the thing that amazed my husband the most in all this is the fact i havent done anything to either of them. he got a glimpse of my "evil twin" in dealing with my ex-husband when he thought it would be funny to kidnap my 2 1/2 yr. old son. i thought it was even funnier when the fbi and state police were at his mothers house harrassing her. i thought it was funnier when the irs started asking about his private bussiness. his credit is shot to hell and he is now bankrupt and living in his mothers basement. i have always told people i dont play games with my life, and if you push me into a game, i can promise two things- i WILL win, and i wont play fair to do it.
I sometimes give new meaning to BIT**!!

If my husband becomes brainless enough to have another affair after all that we have been through and all of the changes we have made together...he wouldn't deserve me. I would have to leave. My tires would screech out of the driveway in a heartbeat.

I don't think I would. But one doesn't really know until it happens. This shows that the person is mentally unstable, or they just don't give a dam about anything, marriage, spouse, kids, family, etc. They obviously didn't learn from the first one. They can see all the signs, connections happening, and feelings happening. They know what to look for, and they know how the feelings start. All the counselors told me the OW knew she was starting another affair. Why would she suggest to my H to e-mail him privately? Why would the conversation go to cell-phone? Why did she say she wanted to go to the hotel, instead of out to dinner? She is a wicked woman.<p>This is why I am still totally confused about why my paper H would find anything in this OW. This being the OW for sure 2nd physical affair, and possibly a third. This woman is not stable emotionally.

It seems to me that the majority of those in recovery, probably would NOT aim for marital recovery again. If I was reading the replies right (there were far more than I anticipated!), it also seems that those that are not quite in recovery would be willing to do it all again. That means you still have a bunch of plan A still in you. Wanna share some? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh, and nikko - I like your style!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen<p>[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Topie25 ]</p>

Interesting topic…<p>Dodson takes a very tough love approach. Basically says that an affair is the so disrespectful that a BS should just throw out the WS with no chance for reconciliation ever. There is a lot of wisdom in that.<p>Harley says that most marriages can be saved, hence the MB books and this web site. But he says another very interesting thing. He says that if his wife were to ever have an affair he would let her go. He would take the Dodson approach. Now this sounds odd coming from Dr. Harley but I believe that his point is that most people don’t know how to have a good marriage or how to affair proof the marriage. So it makes sense to learn all they can from the affair and repair their marriage. But if a person already knows the MB material and how to keep passionate love going and affair proof their marriage (and themselves), then what is the point of reconciliation? Once aware, the WS commits a greater wrong in having an affair. <p>So my response? No…. if he has another affair, then there is nothing more we can do to repair our marriage. If I have an affair the same would hold true.

ON D-DAY I kicked my H out, separated our accounts, changed PIN numbers and was headed on my way to a divorce lawyer all before noon....until I was intercepted and told to slow down by my close friend. The next night I found this website and found out how ignorant my H and I had been about preventing A's, so I swallowed all my pride and gave him a second chance...<p>I reacted and did just about everything I always said I would if my H cheated on me. Think I knew myself pretty well. Had I not found this website when I did, we'd be divorced right now. <p>I have no qualms about doing what I say I'm going to do. I have no qualms about doing things the way I originally planned on, heaven forbid, D-day #2. The "accident" excuse is used all up.<p>I swallowed my pride this first time because of our ignorance, a lingering sense of committment but mostly because I still had a feeling of friendship and wanting to help my H. Maybe as a female BS, I'm used to being emotionally supportive to confused or stumbling friends. BUT if the support isn't working, sometimes you just have to let them hit rock bottom on their own and take their knocks so they can wake up. Do it all the time. <p>To look at it another way...if I had the A, we went thru this all-points encompassing recovery, and then I went out and had a 2nd A...man, I maliciously threw away all that I had learned just for an emotional or physical bootie call! <p> My H had BETTER dump me! I'd want him to protect himself. I've got deeper-seated problems than Harley is equipped to deal with. I need tougher love, heavier-duty individual counseling...a 2 X 4...something different!

No, not on your life, when pigs fly and fish talk. I agree with what everyone has already said. It hurt, he saw the pain, if he chooses to make that mistake again, he chooses to hurt me. Adios I can do better.

Good question, my immediate response is "hell no" but that's what I said just prior to my W's A. <p>I have to agree w/ some of what I read here. Me and my W have learned alot about ourselves and our marriage as a result of her A. We've both grown alot and learned alot about A's and marriage as a whole. For her (or me for that matter) to do such a thing now after knowing all that...I'd have to say no. <p>I know it's easier said than done, but it's one thing to err withoug knowledge or reason, it's another to do it armed w/ the truth.<p>Just my thoughts, good luck [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

As I read this thread, it just keeps coming back to me that my H DID know what he was doing, maybe even more than if he was a WS for the second time. It may be his first time as a WS (though I'd like some way of learning if THAT'S even the truth), but his status as a two-time BS before he married me should at least give him the knowledge of the BS's pain.<p>Maybe this is where my hopelessness comes from. If you can do this to someone having already have felt it yourself and THAT didn't stop you, then what would? Isn't one of the reasons a WS who doesn't do it again because of witnessing the pain of the BS? And that's just SEEING it, not FEELING it.<p>Honestly, is there any reason for me to continue in this world of his? Is there anyone else here on these boards who has been in my situation, whose WS used to be a BS in a previous M? Have I been deluding myself this whole time as my family keeps telling me? Is this why I keep feeling that I will never get over it if I stay married to him?

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]<p>[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>