I'm back, starting a new post with a new question. I will leave the question of whether I can be friends with this woman for later. But as I try and heal myself, I find that I must discover WHY I became involvled with her.<p>I'd like to hear from people who wandered. I can tell you honestly that it was not about sex. The only thing I can figure out is that I had been assigned a major project at work, and was moving to a private office alone. I had lots of time on my hands to worry, and when this woman came into my life, obsees about her and read all kinds of qualities onto her so that she became my anchor. You know, with her by my side I can do this.<p>As I get ready to head back to the main office, i wonder if these feelings will diminish. Does that make any sense?<p>
And Dear replaced, I am glad that my posts are giving you some insight into your husband. I speak the truth for what many men grapple with. Men might brag about sexual affairs, but affairs of the heart are something they keep private. If have any questions for me, let me know and I will answer them.<p>I am in my mid 40s, married for more than 2 decades. Happy in my marriage, never any real problems. Like my job, healthy, finacially Ok, no drinking.<p>If I could get into this spot, many men can. Or already are in this situation.

Hi,
First I need to apologize for being overly critical earlier. This is what I would try. there is an emotional needs questionaire at this site. Try it. Find out what makes you tick, what you like and what you don't. What is going on when you feel on top of the world, what are the true feelings you have at that time. How do you feel the most supported. Identify them in yourself, sometimes it is harder than it sounds. Then find out what makes you feel down, is it a statement, a look, does it take you back to other times in your life when things were not so great? Once you have spent some time on this, start observing your homelife. Are your needs in the areas you identified being met? Does your wife try to meet your needs but somehow falls short? You know that she loves you, but the way she shows it just doesn't fulfill you in the way you need? One thing that is very helpful are weekend marriage retreats. Many different types are out there, many churches offer them. It is a great place to start reconnecting with your wife. She may be having many of the same feelings, but not want to rock the boat, or not know how to approach the situation. From what you have said, the relationship has been pretty good, she may not know how to approach the subject that something feels missing. In my case, nothing was really missing, we just did not communicate our love to each other in ways the other needed. For example, I need to feel first, and he needs to feel appreciated. I can show my love just by hanging up his clothes and thanking him for working long hours. He can show his to me by offering to help when he gets home, even though he is exhausted, that demonstrates to me that My feelings matter and come before his own. Simple things that just need rearranging. I hope you can reconnect with your wife in a way that will build each other up. Maybe you have gone through this as a wake up call that you do value your marriage, but need to do some major maintanance to have the one you desire. wish you the best

MM,
I suggest taking the Emotional Needs quiz on this site...it helped me define what I need, what I ain't getting and what I want to fix.<p>I'm also reading "Relationship Rescue" by Dr. Phil McGraw (Oprah's buddy)...it's pretty good so far. I'm finding it helpful as well.

I am pasting this over here in hope that it will help answer some of your questions,<p>Cali<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
ClydeA
posted February 01, 2002 05:34 AM
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The posts from Clouds in this thread certainly indicate that many WSs do not even know that they are crossing the divide and entering EAs. Even when they have entered they do not know that they are there.<p>Kim101:<p>Not much time to digest your posts, but will do so at the weekend. I agree that your situation seems similar to Clouds' and ours, but I need to read your other posts to get the gist of what you had written before on it.<p>Question:<p>What really sent you sliding into the A? I am not sure, but was it only EA, or, was it also PA?<p>
Freshstart:<p>Your comments are welcome. Glad you had some words for Kim101.<p>I'd like for this thread to be read by others in our type of situation.<p>Thanks for your input.<p>No time now &#8212; not until weekend.<p>Bye.<p>Clyde <p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p> freshstart
posted February 02, 2002 09:37 AM
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Clyde, same for me--limited time but hope to get back here later. It's Saturday and I have to work till 5 or 5:30 tonight.
Just wanted you to know I'm still here.<p>--------------------<p>Fresh Start<p>
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ClydeA <p> posted February 24, 2002 03:14 PM
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I have copied this from the In Recovery Forum and pasted it here for the convenience of having the story (at least, this part) all in one place, as it relates to much of the previous posting in this thread.
Clyde<p>ClydeA <p>posted February 22, 2002 12:31 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Clouds:
Yes, after almost 2 years, my feelings for the OM have died. I actually thought for a long time that I would just keep my feelings for the OM hidden. I would hold a special place for him in my heart forever. It was something I was willing to live with. But now it is gone.<p>The "stabbing pain" lasted for 6 mos to 1 year for me. Honestly, I guess I still have a longing for the feeling of caring and deep attachment that I had in the A. But not specifically for OM.<p>Early on, I didn't think that I would ever get over it, totally. I have continued to occasionally to see the OM in public situations. <p>I don't have any special feelings when I see him (except remorse, embarrassment, regret). It is gone. <p>So, especially without contact, it can happen.<p>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Clouds:<p>Remember me? The one with whom you spent two weeks back in November helping him to understand several aspects of his W's EA because the circumstances so closely resembled yours?<p>I was delighted to read this post from you. I guess this is what "no contact" is meant to do &#8212; help you to heal faster without THAT distraction.<p>It is obvious that we need to get our WSs away from their OPs despite their resisting.<p>Congratulations!<p>My W still refuses to give up OM because she says she has done "nothing wrong" and he is "just a friend".<p>Well, I had a chat with OM this weekend only to find out from him that W never told him of certain restrictions on their contact and on HIS part of it.<p>He admitted to me that her numerous calls to him in the early stages made him "uncomfortable" and that he did not like it. She had felt that she could have continued with the frequency "if he'd had no problem with it." Now she knows. He did not want to hurt her feelings so he tolerated the situation though she was inconsiderate.<p>As he did four years ago, he assured me that he'd do "nothing" to make me feel "uncomfortable". I discovered from him that my W never told him of what the new restrictions were and he continued being in touch with her although unaware that she hid this information from him.<p>I think she is feeling like a fool now that this revelation about his discomfort with the frequency of her calls to him has come to light and the fact that, while he thought I knew about their lunch dates, etc., I did not.<p>He couldn't believe that she didn't want me to know about many of the things concerning their friendship.<p>Ah Well!!!<p>Clyde <p>
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Clouds
posted February 22, 2002 01:29 PM
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Hi ClydeA-
Your post sort of startled me. I didn't see it on the other thread. I have been busy and not around MB so much.
I don't unnderstand the arrangement with your wife. You had an agreement about her contact (limited?) and she did not abide by it? Even if she thinks she has done nothing wrong, she still isn't respecting your feelings about the situation. It may be valid for her to disagree about your view the appropriateness of the "friendship." However, she can't disagree about how you FEEL about the friendship with OM. It obviously bothers you a great deal. How you feel is valid, whether she understands or not. At a minimum, I would think she should agree to, and stick with, boundaries that you are ok with. No contact being the best. I don't mean to be unkind, but what is more important to her, this friendship or her marriage?? I don't get it.<p>Also, I wouldn't (didn't) say I have "forgotten" OM. I meant that with the distance/time, the feelings have gone. I still see him, so I can't "forget."<p>[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Clouds ]<p>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>ClydeA
posted February 22, 2002 08:30 PM
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Clouds:
Sorry about misinterpreting your post re "feelings" for OM.<p>In any case, I am still happy for you.<p>Does the absence of "feelings" make it easier for you to speak with him now, or, are you not expected to speak with him ever again?<p>
quote:
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Originally posted by Clouds:<p>I don't mean to be unkind, but what is more important to her, this friendship or her marriage?? <p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Sometimes I wonder myself.<p>I told her just now that I am "battle weary" and that in ten years we might not be together because of this and that he would probably be long gone to his grave by then.<p>Where, then, would that leave us at ages 65 and 60 at that time?<p>You might call that LB-ing.<p>Clyde <p>
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freshstart
posted February 23, 2002 09:14 AM
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((((((ClydeA)))))) How disappointing about your W. So glad you confronted OM. But what is wrong with HIM??? He didn't have to let the calls continue in the first place if they made him uncomfortable.
The lying is so horrible, isn't it? You don't know if you can trust W and there is room for suspicion of OM...it sucks!! <p>You have been on such a long journey. I feel happy that your W is truly embarrassed. I only hope she will look a little deeper and see how you are feeling. <p>How do you find the fortitude to keep on when she is so disrespectful toward your feelings and needs?<p>I hope I am not doing damage here--you know I generally try to be very encouraging and really that is my goal posting this reply but I can see you need to get some stuff off your chest. <p>Take care, my friend.<p>--------------------<p>Fresh Start<p>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Clouds
posted February 23, 2002 10:54 AM
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ClydeA-
I'm sorry that this is weighing you down. I am not a good one to give advice. What you said to your W may be LBing, but you also need to communicate to her how you feel. Your situation seems stalled to me until she really takes responsibility for her actions, and recognizes how she hurts you.
Maybe this revelation from OM will be a way for her to see how she is being dishonest with herself, and with you. From my POV, it looks like she is trying to protect the relationship with OM by keeping from you what she knows you will disapprove of. If the relationship is truly "harmless," to both her and to you, then why can't she be honest about her contact? <p>What rang true with me was when my H said that if there was nothing wrong with my realtionship with OM, then I should be willing to have had my H with each time I saw OM. If I needed to see him or talk to him alone, then there was a need for emotional intimacy that is not appropriate. I think that in most situations, this general rul should hold true for married people in relationships with people of the opposite gender. <p>You probably agree with me, so telling youthis doesn't help. But I used the strategy your wife has used, which was to try to convince my H that there was nothing wrong with my friendship with OM. Until I got caught doing stuff that was so very clearly wrong, I wouldn't admit it to him or myself. Maybe your wife is getting to that point. It is a good sign that she is embarrassed by her deceit. Don't push the issue with her, but it may be a step toward her seeing what her behavior is really all about. <p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>
ClydeA
posted February 23, 2002 03:16 PM
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Clouds & Freshstart:
Thanks for your responses. Still 'battle weary', but will try this weekend to see if I can have closure to this so that we can move on.<p>Since speaking to OM, I feel less hate for him as I've realized that my W has brought it to this.<p>I can't seem beat them, so I might as well join them.<p>Will update you later.<p>Clyde <p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ClydeA <p> posted March 01, 2002 10:38 PM
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Adding this as well from the In Recovery forum:
Author Topic: ClydeA - About your update.. <p>Clouds <p>posted February 28, 2002 10:53 AM
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Hi Clyde-
I wasn't ignoring you, well sort of I was. I din't want to reapond on MarkH's thread, though.
I read your update, and didn't know how to respond. This is where I am not good with advice. I can relate to others, like MarkH, about how I felt, but when I read something like your update, I don't have any advice (not like Twyla or others).<p>I know that you are deeply concerned about your situation. But your posts sometimes sound so resigned. Sometimes you speak about your marriage with such a lack of emotion and I get the sense that you have very rigid expectations for your W, and she may object to that. Athough you care deeply, she may not be "hearing" this. Do you know what I mean? I may be totally wrong. <p>Anyway, about the lying. I also meant to say to MarkH, the other sad reason that WS may continue to lie, is caught in the bind of desire to contact OP, and dread of hurting the BS, lying is a way out. Being dishonest may seem like the lesser of the evils to the desperate WS. Besides, we got away with it before, and got good at it....... <p>
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Kim101
posted February 28, 2002 11:32 AM
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Clouds -
Hope you don't mind. I just wanted to add to that. As a WS, I held so much guilt for all of those that were being hurt because of ME. With incredibly low self-esteem anyway, lying kept me from hurting others even worse than I already had. I was even lying to the OM at the end of the A. He was being hurt too and I dying inside because I seemed to crush everything I touched at that point.
Once my H found out and the A was over, I laid in our spare bedroom for 5 days straight without food or drink. I was in a state of numbness. I remember feeling a sense of relief, yet I missed the conversation of the EA. I hurt so many and was suicidal. I left the house on the 5th day and left my car and all my worldly possessions. I was on my way to death. I had it all planned out. My H came after me and I refused to get in the car with him. So he went back home and put my son in the car. I saw my son's face, with tears in his eyes. He said, "Mom, please get in the car". I can clearly see my son's beautiful face to this day. My son saved my life. There is no doubt about that one.<p>I continued to lie or say, "I don't know" when my H would ask me about the future or about my feelings. I had no future in my mind, but my feelings for him were so cold and distant. I didn't want to hurt my H, so I'd tell him I loved him. But I knew I didn't love him the way I used to. Thankfully, it came back in a few months. But those months of the A and the few months after, can only be described as a time in which I had a mental breakdown of sorts. That is the only term that seems to fit where my head was. This is the only way I can even barely explain how I felt at the time and how I look upon it now, after it has been analyzed to death.<p>Thanks for letting me stick my nose in.<p>--------------------<p>**For WS who need a mentor, you can email me at (donkimmal@aol.com). We could all use a friend. **<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>
Clouds
posted February 28, 2002 11:54 AM
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Hi Kim-
Don't worry about sticking your nose in (you don't mind to you Clyde?). Clyde and I go way back, to what, November??
Kim - I have read many of your posts and have thought of contacting you directly. I haven't been around MB as much lately but I have noticed that you have tried to answer alot of questions, as a WS, and I imagine you've helped a lot of people. I was doing more a while ago, but have been out of time and energy for it lately.<p>I can sympathize with your "breakdown." Maybe it isn't an uncommon thing. Having always been a person who is very stong and in control, I just fell apart after d-day, too. I think for some of us facing the lies, the fundamental inconsistency of our behavior with how we defined ourselves, was very difficult to overcome. I was not afundamentally, bad, dishonest or immoral person. In fact, most people who have known me would have said the opposite. I still struggle when I look back and wonder how I ever let myself do something so immoral. It is hard to reconcile. Being that it is so hard for a WS to live with this new self-image and the damage the A has done, suicide is not unthinkable. Depression is very common. <p>And Clyde, if you are reading this, for you:
It might be that part of your wife's denial of the nature of her relationship with OM is part of this trap. If she admits it is an EA, then she has to acknowlege that she has been having an AFFAIR. She probably does not consider herself to be a person who is capable of this lowly type of behavior. So consequently, it must be either you are wrong, or your definition of an EA is wrong. Those are easier explainations than her being an adultress (lying, cheating, scum). Not easy for a basically good person to swallow about ones self. <p>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>ClydeA
posted March 01, 2002 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by Clouds:<p>"I get the sense that you have very rigid expectations for your W, and she may object to that. Athough you care deeply, she may not be "hearing" this. Do you know what I mean? I may be totally wrong..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Clouds:<p>If you don't think you can give advice and you are so good with what you give, then what would happen if you thought you could?<p>I guess I do have "rigid" expectations and, perhaps, this is what makes her uncomfortable.<p>
quote:
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Anyway, about the lying ... the other sad reason that WS may continue to lie is, caught in the bind of desire to contact OP, and dread of hurting the BS, lying is a way out. Being dishonest may seem like the lesser of the evils to the desperate WS. Besides, we got away with it before, and got good at it...."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>I think you might have just saved the day for W and me with that statement (suggestion?).<p>I believe this is probably the reason for my W's lying and dishonesty and deceit. Perhaps, it was not intentional, but she had to find a way out of an awkward situation and chose that route.<p>Having not said anything since Saturday, I thought she would, at least, have said "sorry" during the week (which she hasn't), so, I told her a few 'things' just now.<p>Having read this from you (who's been 'there'), I think I can tell her in the morning that I am prepared to 'forget' it, simply because I now believe she was under tremendous pressure and kept doing one thing after the other to get out of the situation, without giving rational thought to what she was doing.<p>
quote:
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Quote from Kim101:
"...lying kept me from hurting others even worse than I already had. I was even lying to the OM at the end of the A. He was being hurt too and I dying inside because I seemed to crush everything I touched at that point."<p>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Kim101:<p>I also want to believe now that this too was part of my W's problem.<p>
quote:
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Quote from Clouds:
"I think for some of us, facing the lies, the fundamental inconsistency of our behavior with how we defined ourselves, was very difficult to overcome. <p>I was not a fundamentally, bad, dishonest or immoral person. In fact, most people who have known me would have said the opposite. <p>I still struggle when I look back and wonder how I ever let myself do something so immoral. It is hard to reconcile. <p>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Clouds:<p>Perhaps, this has been goingthrough my W's mind and she's been having difficulty dealing with it.<p>
quote:
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Another quote from Clouds:
"And Clyde, if you are reading this, for you:<p>It might be that part of your wife's denial of the nature of her relationship with OM is part of this trap: <p>If she admits it is an EA, then she has to acknowledge that she has been having an AFFAIR. <p>She probably does not consider herself to be a person who is capable of this lowly type of behavior. So, consequently, it must be either you are wrong, or your definition of an EA is wrong. <p>Those are easier explainations than her being an adultress (lying, cheating, scum). Not easy for a basically good person to swallow about ones self. <p>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Clouds:<p>Those are about the best words I've seen here in a long time. I really think I'm on the road back to reconciling with W after one week of 'silence' following one of outbursts.<p>You once said something to the effect that we look, sometimes, for "rational" answers to 'irrational' behaviour.<p>In trying to place myself in the shoes of the WS, I can see how your statement makes sense.<p>I think it is about time to (try to) hug and kiss and let the whole thing go.<p>I hope this will be accepted after tonight's 'telling it like it is' session.<p>
By the way, Clouds: What is your profession? You appear to be well-educated (I think you aid so as well). You seem to provide such balanced, well-thought-out answers to our problems.<p>I believe that, the the least, you must have a Master's degree, but I won't be surprised if it is even a PhD.<p>Thanks again.<p>Clyde


<hr></blockquote><p>[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]</p>

Cali:<p>I am only now seeing your post on this thread about EAs in which you copied a discourse between Clouds and me.<p>Obviously, you've found some value in it, hence your copying it from the 'In Recovery' forum. Thanks.<p>I do hope this discourse (and Clouds' insightful comments and suggestions) will be read more widely and that others will be able to relate and will be helped by reading it.<p>Perhaps you can bump this on Monday morning.<p>The full discourse between Clouds and me is in the In recovery forum titled: ClydeA - About Your Update. I hope it makes interesting reading to people struggling with EAs.<p>Clyde

Dear Clyde and Clouds and Cali,<p> I'm glad I found your posts on this thread. I will go find the full post now. I just wanted you to know your post has helped me tremendously. Thank you.
Forgiver