I am completely torn in two, Where do I go next.<p>My wife and I have been having problems since her first affair about two years ago. She had an affair with my best friend whom my brothers and I were helping out by giving him a job at our fathers company. She said it was only sex and at the time of the unavailing of the affair she was very remorseful and was asking for forgiveness. We went to our pastor for a month or so and also a couple of “I Still Do Conferences.” We made a commitment to each other that "Divorce was not an option". And we honestly tried to heal our marriage there for a year or so. But I did not follow my word and quit my bad habits, smoking cigarettes and pot, and that was her fuel for the fire of no longer communicating to me and telling me what was on her mind directly rather than “hinting” around. After that we move back on into our rut and here we are again! Her father caused emotional and physical trauma to my wife when she was a child and I feel very strongly that her whole view on men has been a result of that early trauma! (Promiscuity, wanting physical affection from all men) I don't know what to say. I'm just trying to put a little of the story on board here so someone can help me know what to do next!<p>I was lost in my addictions but now I have come to grips with my addictions and I am working on eliminating them completely! (Getting a physical, and in shape, start on a quit smoking program, and attending Narcotics Anonymous regularly). I realize that I have been making those addictions priority rather than my relationship with my wife. When we would have an argument or contention, which would be my excuse to release my anger and pain into an addiction, actually was just concealment of the problem. It really is a shame that this had to happen before I realized what was going on!<p>Granted I am very responsible in taking care of my family, financially, being open, honest, giving admiration, affection, and supporting her domestically. But missing a crucial part that wasn’t my entire fault. Conversation and sexual fulfillment was not being met. <p>Since that time (about two years ago) we have been slowly drifting apart again. I don’t know exactly when and I know I am guilty of not fulfilling all of her emotional needs for the past six months. But also in defense for myself, I did notice something was wrong and continually asked her what the problem was and if we can talk about it. She would never tell me out straight and I didn’t get the hints! WOW! What a test! <p>This past January she said she was going to Dallas to visit a “girlfriend” who just had a baby. This was on our Daughters birthday weekend. When she finally called back on that Sunday afternoon, I had a feeling, because of the signs or warnings flags and asked her straight out if she had an affair. She told me "How did know?" <p>When she said this my pain overwhelmed me and I told her not to come home. (Which was a bad idea). I was once again devastated by this and really thought there was no hope until I found this website and picked up the book His Needs / Her Needs.<p>She had been talking to this man on the internet for about four months. I knew she was on the computer daily and honestly thought that she was working on her website development and following her interest. But at the same time I seen the interest in the marriage and her responsibilities start to decline and her honesty and being secretive was very present. Why was I so blind? I feel that it was because of my patience and taking her for her word when she said she would never do this again, no matter how bad it had gotten in our relationship. Am I gullible or missing the point? <p>She has not stopped talking AND seeing the other man (she went to Dallas last weekend) and has no remorse and says she doesn’t want to work on our marriage and doesn’t love me like “that” anymore. She knows that her relationship with him will eventually die out naturally, but still wants to plunge into it! I am completely heart broken! <p>I decided to go tell her that since she didn't want to stop seeing the other man and was not really interested in recovering the marriage. That I was closing the bank account, changing the locks in the apartment and asking her to only come over and see the children after arranging something with me prior to her picking them up. And that it would stay this way until she decided to;
A) Stop the Affair and have no further communication with him for the rest of her life.
B) Have a willingness to re-conciliate the marriage.<p>When I told her these things she actually started to cry for the first time. We were in the kitchen and she started to tear up and walk away so, I grabbed her arm and drew her near me and I gave her a big hug and told her that I love her and that my love has always been unconditional. She cried in my arms for a few minutes and then said to me that it would be hard for her not to talk to him anymore. I was surprised to even hear her say that! Later this week, we got to talking on the phone and she told me that now she wasn't sure if she could do that because her feelings for him were a lot stronger than her feelings for me. I believe she called him last night
Where do I go next to have reconciliation in the marriage and continue to fulfill her needs completely? I am willing to forgive her and move on, but she seems that is too easy and doesn’t want to do that. She feels the need to be liberated from me but not her lover. This seems like she is trying to completely destroy herself and the family with her!<p>I will lift up my eyes into the hills, from where my help comes. My help comes from the Lord, which made heaven and earth. Psalm 121:1,2<p>[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Zane ]</p>

You are dealing with major major problems.
First, she an affair with your best friend and claims it was just sex. What does that mean? She was putting your health at risk and disrespecting you by having sex with you best friend also.
Second, her second affair is meeting somebody on the internet and she visits him and has sex with him on your daughter's birthday. This man could have been God knows what and yet she seems to not care about the risk she took and again the risk she puts on you and her child?
Thirdly, she continues to fly and meet and be intimate with him while she is still married to you?
This is not a person I would wish to raise a child. Clearly she has significant problems to put so much at risk. I think if she is not committed to major therapy then you should think about finding someone else to have a life with and to raise your child. Good Luck

Zane,<p>Sorry that you've had to come here... but now that you ARE here, welcome, and I think you've found one of the best places to recover from infidelity. Why do I say that? Because as you read ALL the material on this site, you'll come to realize that one way or another, you will come away better and stronger yourself.<p>One thing to keep in mind - your marriage may or may not recover. That's kind of up to your wife, the WS. And we need to fully appreciate that we can't control the WS with ultimatums, disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, and so on. We can only behave in an admirable way, and let them see that we are worth more respect than we're being given. That's a key - using actions to speak for us. (Oh, and there's a time for Plan B too - don't let me leave you with an impression that we need to give and give without end... there's a definite time for "tough love".)<p>I suggest you read "Surviving an Affair" (check out the bookstore link).<p>Whether you want to save your marriage or not is up to you. Keep a couple of things in mind that might influence you:<p>1. An affair is an addicition for the WS. They behave irrationally, and will in fact likely relapse a few times before they "get it".<p>2. Most affairs die a natural death. It can take anywhere from 1 day to decades - much of it depends on the personalities involved. For the most part, it's typcial for them to end in less than 6 months, with most ending within 2 years.<p>3. We as BS have little to no control over the course of the affair. Efforts to "educate", "reason", or otherwise cajole the WS tend to backfire universally.<p>Do lots of reading - many, many materials exist on the topic. Other folks have good links for newbies... check them out. Good luck!<p>[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

Just a quick welcome to you BOTH!! Sorry that you have the situation in your life to need a place like this, but there are many of us here in similar situations. Please read the MB web-site principles, and read and post often. There are several couples that post here, and I'm sure they can be of great support to you.<p>What you both need to understand is there's hope for your marriage. You both have issues outside the relationshop that need to be worked on. I'm glad you are facing them head-on. Your W needs some help with her issues from her childhood.<p>Marriage can be a wonderful thing!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You 2 need to do everything you can to learn about yourselves, and learn how to treat each other, so that you can build a fulfilling marriage that can withstand anything.<p>Start by reading the MB prinicples, reading other stories here, and posting lots of questions.

Okay, but when is enough enough????? I have plan a'd myself blue and my husband is still an *******. Pardon the language, but really/??? All he does is moon over his lost 18 year old. Especially now that she has a new boyfriend. Well BOOHOO. Hurts doesn't it??? <p>sorry, just venting

Bryan
I appreciate you taking the time to reply. Here is a link to the other side to this story in case your interested... http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=016064
Also Im just wondering if perhaps you can help me with something? You speak of risks that were taken. Please tell me how the risks that i took are any worse than the risks that jd takes several times a week by getting completely stoned, and driving back home with at least one of our girls in the car with him? If you have an answer to that please do not hesitate to share it with me.
Also as quoted by you:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>This is not a person I would wish to raise a child. Clearly she has significant problems to put so much at risk. I think if she is not committed to major therapy then you should think about finding someone else to have a life with and to raise your child. Good Luck <hr></blockquote><p>You have absolutely no right assuming that you know what type of mother i am. I have been a stay at home mom for the past seven years, I have made a lot of self sacrifices for my family. Having no car and craving some adult interaction I turned to the internet. Big Mistake. But no matter what mistakes I have made, those do not affect my ABILITIES as a mother. My girls are well mannered, polite, intelligent, healthy and safe. Guess who taught them to be those things? You guessed it, ME! Im not saying that Jd did not help, because I know that he probably did more than most men do. But he will even tell you that I have done a great job raising them. So I will tell you what, you think about what you want to type BEFORE you type it, and i will think about what i do BEFORE I do it...<p>[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Wendy_n_Texas ]</p>

Wendy, why don't u leave your husband's posts alone and let him have some privacy? He has a right to hear EVERY opinion on what has happened in your marriage in order to come to his own conclusions. Even the bad posts will show him how others think. My wife and I both post here and never read each others posts - unless it is by accident. It helps because I know I can say things and hear things that she will not try and influence.<p>I agree that saying you are a bad mother is not neccessarily appropriate, but u really have to try and consider that what you are doing is bringing down bad karma on everything around you. U lie and cheat and manipulate - because your needs weren't being met. It is a selfish act and that's the bottom line. These character traits DO translate into behaviour that YOUR children may pick up on as they mold their own personality. <p>Your husband is BIG man to be able to forgive you - HE deserves your respect. I have read of people whom have left WS's, I have read of people - ON THIS BOARD - whom have committed murder as a result of infidelity. Try and force yourself to see his point of view, see the gravity and level of pain you have caused another human being. Help HIM for a change instead of stroking yourself. The love you may create will benefit your children. <p>BTW, your husbands drug use and problems attending to your needs is still NOT a reason to tear his life a part. What you did was WRONG no matter what he is guilty of failing - and things you were doing by cheating may have added to his already dismal state. <p>ZANE, brother you can make it through this. She has done dispicable things to you - raked your self image through sewage, and left you hurting to satisfy herself. Take a GOOD LONG LOOK at who she is and what she means to you. Do you love her or do you love what you wish she was? If you can say that she has been your source of happiness and you can see a future past this than you should try and work it out using MB principles. <p>I personally do not subscribe to this plan A'ing stuff unless the WS commits to leaving the A immediately. That you cannot influence the end is perhaps true, but I definitely do think you should LEAVE HER IMMEDIATELY if she refuses to end it. You shouldn't go through any more pain - this type of heartache is very dangerous to your life, and being a doormat for her to get all she wants from both you and OM is bullsh**t as far as I am concerned.<p>She will need to get councelling for her need to seek and attract the attention of the opposite sex - this is what I have been told repeatedly - my wife is in the same league. She did these things because she is screwed up from her past, not because of you. Prozac also can help her if she has low impulse control. And she has to be totally honest with you now. She has to give you all the information you need about the A so you can make a proper decision on her morality and your ability to love her and forgive - whether you stay or leave.

Thank you for the comments everyone.<p>Major Problems is right Bryanp, she did take a big risk and she avoids talking about them, I have asked her to SERIOUSLY work on healing from the past and going to therapy to resolve these old issues. These issues of her not understanding or totally disregarding the risk is her hypervigilance.<p>J.R. = I have read "Surviving an affair" articles off of the website and I am trying now to implement a lot of what was said. I do want to save our marriage. I am confident if we survive this it will makes us both stronger individually and as a couple. <p>Yes I do understand that her affair is an addiction, having an addiction myself and going through the withdrawls are similar in feelings.
I want to be there for her when this happens. I know I wont get much in return. But I have always given more than I have received. And Yes, Ultimately the choice is hers.<p>I see us growing old together and looking into each others eyes and still feel the blessing from God.<p>Thank you for the positive message Faith1. YES all the cards are on the table. It is the only way I can see this wound heal.<p>amh= Controlling your emotions, directing your thoughts, are very hard to do. I'm not good at controlling my emotions at all sometimes. But I still try to focus, it keeps me on track of what I am reaching for. Venting I feel is good, I myself just need to work on directing that ventalation in a progressive manner and I suggest that you also do the same. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Ouch! Wendy.
How can I be driving with children(smoking pot) when I'm comming home from work? Yes, I have taken those stupid risk in the past, and regret it, but not "several times a week". <p>Furthermore; you still did not answer his questions about the risk you took. I'm not completely innocent of taking risk either and I was very foolish for doing so. Please <p>"What type of mother" Wendy Please do not be so defensive, and listen to the question. He did not say that you don't love your children because I know you do love them more than anything else in this world. How are you REALLY doing though? Do we have breakfast in the mornings together, how about dinner? How does the house look for most of time. How has your actions prove to be good. With your affair going on how well did you take care of the children and home? I have always been patient to a point. I will start cleaning up myself before I would say anything then only after a week or so of doing most of the daily chores would I then say something.
Speaking of self sacrifices is only being selfish. For if you love someone you are sacrificing for love! <p>I couldn't help only having one car in the family. Plus we were not in the financial position to go out and buy a second car. I did suggest that you have your mom or friends come over or pick you up to go do things outside the house.. But you always talked yourself out of doing things like that because of having no self-esteem, and having a negative attidue. (Learned Traits) <p>The right angle to approach a difficult problem is the "try-angle"<p>One more thing, can you please change your signature to reflect a more positive outlook :-| That really hurts my feelings because that is not what you said to me when we were younger and in love. Kindness is the oil that takes the friction out of life. <p>Wendy, it isn't your position that makes you happy or unhappy, it's your disposition.
1 Timothy 6:6,7<p>[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Zane ]</p>

Hi Zane ~ the MB principles can help you rebuild your marriage and the love between you and your wife, if all the addiction issues and the codependency issues are also being addressed.<p>Your wife probably does have childhood issues - issues that led to her marriage to an addict. What you describe in your wife sounds to me like low self-esteem and depression, based on years of repressing anger and other emotions - something we co-dependents (I am one myself, married to an alcoholic) do well.<p>So when you got help for your addictions...did she get help?<p>She needs it as much or as more as you do. In the same way that you medicated your pain with drugs - she's probably medicating her own pain with an affair.<p>So you both have a choice here. Do you want your marriage? If your answer is yes...then I'd strongly suggest you get on the phone to the Harleys and get a real plan in place for how you will proceed next. Reading the articles, even the books, is very helpful, but it is not a substitute for talking directly to someone who is an expert in the principles, and with affairs.<p>Your wife also gets to make a decision. And you can't force the outcome or the timeline on that. All you can do is decide what YOU will accept in this situation. Are you willing to wait for her to decide? How long? Where are you going to draw the boundaries for yourself? You have every right to start separation/divorce proceedings TODAY if you wish. But whatever you decide to do, don't use it as a threat to control her. Say what you mean, mean what you say...if you tell her she has 1 week to decide...then at the end of the week, you need to follow thru with whatever your boundary is.<p>Good luck, I hope you find help here, as many of us did.

Jd and i have come to the conclusion that we will hide nothing from one another,even this board and what is said to each of us. He is the one that told me about him posting but maybe I should not even be here, so even with that, your right, Im done posting.

JMHO......BUT<p>I think that it may be a good thing for each of them to read each others posts and responses.<p>There may be an offhanded chance that one will post something that the other will understand a little better.<p>I know that I relate things better when they are written or posted......I tend to not really get my point across when actually talking as my mouth usually runs away with things that probably don't need to be said.<p>Anyway......just my opinion. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

More Truth has been told!<p>Thank you everyone for posting your reply's please continue. This is helping me to understand the affair from a different perspective.<p>The other day my wife finally told me that the om was comming down from Dallas to Houston on a continuous basis. They were getting a motel 6 room here locally. This did not really surprise me too much because it was hard to understand how deeply she fell for him with only "ONE" encounter. Well the truth is out now. It doesn't really change anything except the "trust" thing and crazy as it sounds, I still want to reconcilliate the marriage. Using the terms noted here on the website. <p>I'm going to counselling and my family doctor has suggested to see a Phsyciatrist. My counseler was the one my wife and I were originally seeing after D-Day (1/20/02)and I don't know if he would qualify as someone that can help me. I like him and he has helped me understand that I need to work on myself getting better. But the only thing I can think of is her and our marriage.
Am I only fooling myself? <p>This is a major crash and I know I can survive! But is she willing to try? She tells me yes and then no. By the way, what exactly are ya'll talking about when you say she is in the "fog"? Can someone please explain that to me or direct my search? <p>My heart is getting cold and hard. I hate that! I am such a giving person and I see myself loosing that! I have so much to give her if she would have only told me. <p>Back in December was our wedding anniversarry and I went out and bought her a diamond ring! Well now that I know the truth about the affair. I figured out that it was a usessless attempt to rekindle our love and come close to me. I feel like asking for the ring back because she said it doesn't mean anything to her! But asking would be making a LB and I want only to show her the love as much as possible. So much hurts! TV is the worst place for pain! (its not on much anymore)<p>QUESTION: Am I trying to climb Mt Everest? I need some straight talk here people and please do not worry about offending me that is pretty hard to do! Is that a flaw also?<p>[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Zane ]</p>

I'm afraid and concerned that Wendy has been chased away by some harsh responses.<p>Zane, is she coming back to the board? And if not, I am really sorry.<p>I think one of the best possible scenarios is for both of you to be here, getting advice and support. I hope that she sees MB'ers as a way to work on your problems.<p>I sincerely hope that she doesn't feel alienated from this site. If she feels that way, it makes you using this information that much harder. Because she will feel it is all biased to your point of view.<p>Please everyone -- support BOTH of them. And help to share all the good Marriage Building materials with this COUPLE -- not just one of them.

Thank You Lexxxy, The problem I see Wendy having is that she is not talking to anyone except victor! And He hates me a lot (gives him an explination to rationalize his affair with wendy) So when she talks to him guess what! BAM.... bam.bam...
I would love to see wendy talk to someone that could help her rationalize. Wendy, as you see, dislikes anyone who doesn't agree with her opinion! I've seen these contradictions but kept my mouth shut. I'm kinda lost! don't want to break my word, don't want to move on without her!
I know this isn't very positive, sorry ya'll

Zane: I would love to see wendy talk to someone that could help her rationalize. Wendy, as you see, dislikes anyone who doesn't agree with her opinion!<p>J.R.: Yes, this is very typical. WW will not do much other than attack me, she's not into an "open communication model" where we can even talk like the friends we really are (at least about R or M issues). I am aware that she gets bad advice from friends who support her in her views. What can I do? Nothing. I realize that she's got to figure things out for herself. The underlying truth doesn't change, no matter who she talks to in order to get support for the indefencible. That's one thing that keeps me going: there are some fundamental truths out there that will slowly become more and more obvious to her with time. They include: OM is not the knight in shining armor (someone who's willing to actively participate in the destruction of a M, without giving it a chance, is rather weak and selfish - it will present itself in time), her "revisionist history" of our lives is extreme and created for artificial purposes (to justify her A in her mind) - as the A crumbles in time, that wall will crumble also, and by behaving admirably under these conditions, it's SO apparent that I'm the "best" choice for her (she's even admitted this, yet is still addicted). There's other things too, but you get the idea.

Zane -- thats what I was afraid of.<p>When I saw some responses and Wendy's concern, I thought she might have been offended.<p>I'd hate to see her leave this site, because there are some great people here that can help her. But I know this site is very biased towards BS's. And if people aren't aware that you are both posting here then she's going to see responses supporting you that also bash her. And thats not fair for anyone. Its too personal.<p>I'd love to see both of you understand and work with MB's principals. But unfortunately if she feels its all the BS's against her, she won't accept the ideas.<p>I'm also a WS -- I'd like to talk to her. I understand what she's going through.<p>Will she come back?

Hello Lexxxy,
I'm concerned also, but I did tell her that she would have to expect some dissagreement. I do hope she comes back to the board?
I told her that you would like to talk to her so maybe she will come back! I'm really hoping that she will come back to the MB Board. <p>Wendy is still not remorsefull for what happened and until she feels the impact and realizes the truth. I don't see it anytime soon. She works now at a gym here locally, she is the counter person. Her shift is 1pm to 10pm Mon-Friday. The shift really sucks but she is ejoying the job. Its the first time she has worked since we have been married. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Well anyways I have to go to sleep myself so I will post more later. goodbye jd

Hi Zane<p>Rough situation. My input is that you can't control what Wendy or anybody else does, only what you do. Take care of yourself, and your wonderful little ones. If you have to do some work on yourself, and we all do, keep on doing it. Sounds like you are doing that so far. Strive to become the best you that you can possibly be--and that will serve you well for the rest of your life no matter what anybody else chooses. The "fog" you asked about is that state of mind that allows a spouse to betray family and vows for the sort of male who cruises for women on the internet and has no problem with hooking up with married women, and feel no remorse. It's bizarre. But there's no competition, Zane--she's not choosing another man because she hasn't chosen a man; just a male. You, be the man. Your children need a man to lead them into adulthood now, especially if mom isn't setting a good example for them. If you're still doing anything that detracts from your role as father, leader, provider, example--time to stop now. This, by the way, is Plan A. It's for you, and your children. Be the best, Zane. You have it in you. Living through my wife's infidelity is the worst pain I have had to endure, and I am still amazed that a human can feel so terrible and still live through it. And now I am so strong--I had to become a better man. For me, for my family. You control you. If she wants somebody like Victor, well, that won't last long (it rarely does in affair-land) and you can be there, if you choose, as the fog starts to blow away.

Thank You RustyZ for the input and straight talk. <p>My wife and I had a good week of communication and non-love busting. It really does work! She was warming up to me again. BUT THAT ALL WENT DOWN THE DRAIN Sunday Night. The OM called her with the lame excuse of asking her if she called him earlier. Well she called him back! And now she is obviously feeling different about me again. He also sent me an email taunting me! It really pisses me off, but I'm not going to let him get under my skin. <p>I need to understand exactly what plan A is for me. I have a counseling appointment next Tuesday but I just can't wait until then to figure a "plan" out.<p>This is so hard and I’m prepared to go the distance. She is still procrastinating, in the fog. And I don’t really know how long that will be. She did honestly attempt to not speak to him but of course just him giving her a call broke her. I would love to be able to cut all ties with him and her, but I know that she has to do this. Hey is there a deserted island anywhere that I can go? Anyone???

Zane, I feel for you, but I agree with RustyZ. You have to take care of you and those children. No one should put there kids thru this. Now the kids know and they need at least one parent that isn't going to abandon them. Just keep giving the children positive reinforcement. They are going to remember this for the rest of their lives and will probably never forgive her. I know this from many experiences in my field of work, in my family, and in my life. I could never forgive my father for cheating on my mother. I did still love him but my emotions as a child were never properly dealt him. My biggest concern here is the children and the resentment that is building inside of them. Did you get them into counseling? Keep them around loved ones, like aunts, uncles, grandparents, and your self. <p>As for your W, she will have to see things herself. But I don't think she is so much in a fog as I think she is just very immature. She is rebeling now when its too late to let her family know how she felt about her childhood. <p>Good luck to both of you. I really hope she can come around and start to heal her pain. She should make the connection that if she doesn't fix herself now her own children will be acting like her 20 yrs down the line. This cycle must be broken. <p>God Bless you and stay strong