I've pretty much accepted the OW as a permanent fixture in our sex life (and really the rest of my life as well).<p>Since D-day I've managed to do what I never could before: Have sex without emotion. My body is there, but my heart is not, and my mind is pretty much everywhere. I go on auto-pilot. I've trained my body to orgasm so well that I can even have one when in my mind I am suffering from the images of the two of them together, in spite of the barrage of images.<p>Something tells me this is strange and weird and maybe even scary. I don't know how I do it other than somehow disconnecting somewhere and letting that part do its thing while the rest of me does something else.<p>I think my H senses my far-away-ness, and he seems to be trying harder and harder to give me the ultimate orgasm or something, which is not the problem. I can be multiply orgasmic, but just "not there". I do everything "right" on the outside, act passionate and into it, but I'm really not, if that makes any sense. My body is, but not the rest of me.<p>Am I not meeting his need for SF because of this underlying distance? I know it doesn't meet my need for SF. I miss the emotional component, the feeling of exclusiveness and specialness. I feel like I'm just a stand-in for what is playing in his mind.

Wow.
Conqueror, I went to the seminar the Harleys had and he talked about obligitory sex leading to sexual aversion.
Make a plan for yourself. Talk to your H and tell him you cant get the pictures out of your head,then experiment. Maybe he could whisper your name, or touch you in a special way he only touches you.
I cannot say the pictures never bothered me, they did, but it has decreased over time. I read in some book (I have read soo many) that when the picture comes you should signal your H somehow and he should hold you in a loving way until it passes.
I think a further more important problem is why your not allowing yourself to connect to him emotionally. This is just a symptom of something deeper for you. Keep thinking about it until it comes to you.
You are not alone in this.

Whew, the OM is constantly popping in and out of my daily life and while I haven't had a problem IN the bedroom. He's there when I look at my wife and see how beautiful and sexy she is. It is then that I get the images of the OM with her and it's a killer. So he's in my life but not quite in the bedroom(I try to lock that door to keep him out just like our kids;-)).

I'm protecting myself because he abandoned me, and he did it on purpose knowing it was the way he could hurt me the most. He knew the source of my greatest fear and my greatest pain, and he decided he would make it worse than it's ever been before. He has hurt me more than I've ever been hurt in my life, and considering what I've been through in my life, that's saying a lot. No one on earth has done anything this heinous to me (not even my previous H, also a WS, but with no previous history of being a BS).<p>Not only that, but he inflicted on me what he has described as the worst pain HE's ever experienced. He used to tell me that if you took all the physical injuries and operations he's ever had and put them all together, he'd rather feel all that at the same time than to go through even one moment of the pain he went through upon discovering his previous W was cheating on him. Then, he purposely inflicted it on me (the only FAITHFUL W he's ever had) KNOWING how it feels.<p>I just don't know how to feel safe under such circumstances. The few times I have reminded him of the things he used to say about being a BS and explained that nothing has changed, that it still feels like that, he would give lip service: "I know I've hurt you more than anyone has ever hurt you." Basically just repeat my own words back to me and then say something like "I could say I'm sorry every day, but would that really help?" Mostly he just says he "F'ed up" and he doesn't want his "whole life to be judged by those 6 months" (which was actually 9 months or more BTW).<p>Maybe I'm just one of those cases who will never get over it inside the M, but I'll never know as long as he is in self-defense, rationalization, justification mode. I think I instinctively know that if he can't articulate it the way he did before he became a WS, then he hasn't grasped or accepted what he's done to me. Until he faces and acknowledges that his victimization back then is the same as mine right now, then I can't feel safe, and even then, will I?<p>And I can see how sex can eventually become an aversion this way, but I already have an aversion to discussing any of this with him because of his lack of appropriate response. I think I see the two of them together because I believe that's what is in his mind. If I told him this, he would say it's not, but that would most likely be a lie according to what we hear from WS here. They still think of the OP a lot sometimes and sometimes even after a long time. I guess I'd rather face it than pretend it's not there.<p>Even after all this time, it still hits me like a bolt of lightning that he actually DID this to me. I think I'm still in shock. And then I wonder how I can even be around him knowing he did this despicable thing to me. I can't find anything inside of me to understand how a person can do this to another. I guess I've never approached such a level of hatred that would allow me to do it, and if he hates me that much, then how can I possibly be safe?<p>I think deep down I don't want to be with him anymore, but I still can't face doing that to my children, so I just keep trudging along, waiting to see if anything changes in either one of us.

I wish WH was in my bedroom [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

ditto on the bedroom.

WGTT,<p>Maybe it's just me, but I thought the same thing at first, was glad that we were sexual and he was saying he loved me and being affectionate because there had been none of that for months and I wanted to believe it was real and that it meant something, but now it's been about the same amount of months of "feast" as there was the famine that preceded it, and I'm no more satisfied now than I was then.<p>I feel just as rejected and discarded. I feel like I'm a convenience, that it's just easier to stay with me than to face his family with a 3rd divorce, this time with HIM as the WS. I feel like he's manipulating me because he knows I have the power to expose him.<p>This observation about the OP/sex connection came up last night during sex when I once again acknowledged "her" presence there and didn't fight it. I know that everyone has these images in their minds, both BS and WS, but I wondered if anyone else dealt with it the way I have. Also, last night was the first time I actually tried to picture a fantasy man in place of my H, so that was scary. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Maybe I'm trying to superimpose fantasy man to block out OW. Wish I could just have something resembling a normal life for a change.<p>[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

Hi Conqueror, Thanks for replying to my post the other day. Didn't get back on the computer. I went today and bought those books you had mentioned. Now, I do understand what you mean about the OW. I feel the same way but not the distancing away from him. At first I wanted sex more, I think I figured it was one way to be close to him, but he has been having problems in that area so now I am afraid to initiate anything. He also told me, because I asked, not to hurt me, that he didn't have a problem with her in bed so that made me feel great! Also I can relate to how betrayed you must feel. My H. and I both had A's in our early years and stayed together, promising we would never hurt each like that again, but he did. And I am having a very hard time getting over that. I feel like I am in shock also, still and am depressed and can't seem to get myself together. My H does the same things with words, repeats things to me and also says he knows he isn't meeting my needs but doesn't make the effort to. He does things for me but Not the things I need and we go round and round. He gets it, but doesn't want to get close to me. It's hard to know what to do. How long has it been since d-day for you? I think I am feeling better one day and then I get down again for another week. I can't stand feeling this way.

Conquerer,<p>In a mentor (lide success) program that I am involved with, there is a lot of talk about the images on the screen of our minds. (not that they talk about A's) The facilitator suggests to decide picture that you really want, write it out & read it every day & maybe many times each day. Keep it positive and in present tense. That any time a negative thought comes into your mind say NEXT & replace it with a positive thought.<p>Now, all this is hard to do, it takes consistent practice. It's also suggested to focus on what we WANT not what we don't want. Again hard to do but possible with practice. <p>For me, it's been since Dday (10/01) So I havn't had to use techniques. We have been here before & last time I used SF (nothing else) to "lure" WH back. A part of me doesn't know if I could ever be with him again & a part of me is screaming out for him as we had great SF before.<p>It will be interesting to see all the posts on this one.<p> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Day by day,<p>My D-day was Sept. 23, with the A beginning in Jan or Feb (he's not sure [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] , so my assumption is Jan). My H has had performance problems with me after D-day, but never had any with OW. It's VERY reassuring.....NOT! I figure it's because he was thinking of her and wishing he was with her. He claims it's his age and because we've been doing it more often, so not enough time in between. Whatever. He also went through a real porn phase after D-day, but that seems to have gone away.<p>I feel like I'm just bobbing along the path of least resistance. I never talk to him about any of this anymore because I no longer trust him with my private thoughts and feelings. This part of my life I only share here and with my family, and it is still a big part of my life unfortunately. In the past when I've tried to talk about how I feel, he doesn't empathize or comfort, just starts defending himself, which pretty much makes me sick, so I just don't go there anymore.<p>I keep thinking that when he comes out of denial, I'll finally be able to let all this out and we can deal with it, but will he ever snap out of it? The more time that goes by with him acting like nothing's wrong and nothing happened, the more resigned I feel that the M is over and I probably need to do something about it, but so far, I'm just too tired to go down that road yet.

Hmmm... interesting and scary. It's this kind of stuff that makes me question my sanity in sticking in here and trying... I've done such a wonderful job in repressing this kind of stuff, I can imagine recovery being "difficult" (to say the least). Is the pain of recovery going to even be worth it, when there ARE many, many wonderful ladies out there who would be very compatible? I'm very aware of the fact that I'm an "attractive option" - this is something WW admits and IC/MC admits. I know it isn't exactly very MB of me to be talking this way, but sadly, I've started slipping more and more off the wagon. I know it's time for Plan B - I'm getting there with Steve's direction.

WGTT,<p>That technique sounds like something similar I saw in The Divorce Remedy, but I think I hang on to these images to protect myself. I don't think I'll be able to work on something like that until it feels safe enough to do so. I don't think I'll stop protecting myself until I see some evidence of ownership and insight on his part.<p>Also, this is not easy to admit, but I'm starting to recognize a part of myself that wants to continue this way because it is a way of getting back at him.<p>If I let him go, then he will just go back to the OW or find another one and start right where he left off and maybe eventually even another me and remarry and have someone who really loves him as I did and gives him everything as I did, someone who trusts him and lets him in to the deepest parts of herself as I did. He will have intimacy.<p>BUT if I remain in the M, I can outwardly be nice and meet his ENs, but inside I will always know that he doesn't have me and doesn't have anyone because I'll make sure there are no more OW. He will be as alone as I was throughout the whole M before I discovered who he really was and that I was with someone who never loved me. He will have no intimacy.<p>Of course, neither will I, so there's the dilemma. But then I might not be able to have intimacy with anyone because of such massive betrayal, so maybe I'm not losing anything by staying. It took an awful lot for me to trust someone again after what I went through in my first M. I don't know if I could ever be vulnerable to anyone again after this even worse horror. Maybe if I thought I could find the "real thing" I'd be able to let him go and wouldn't care if he got to be happy, too. But right now I'm not inclined to be that generous.

C,<p>It hasn't been that long since you found out and I think some feeling might come back in time. It has been about a year and a half for me and it took almost a year for me to feel anything for him again. <p>I mostly just felt disgusted at first and my WS didn't sleep with his OP. The disgust went away as the level of trust increased over the year. It was like I had to have some semblance of trust in order to let my hair down a bit and ALLOW myself to feel anything for him again. It did come for me................in time.

JR,<p>I know what you're saying, but it probably will be better for you in the long run to stick to the Plan A/B schedule before pursuing another R.<p>Hypothetically speaking, and I don't mean to be inappropriate (and I know I'm not the only one who thinks of this), but sometimes I wonder how we could possibly do any worse if we were to just randomly hook up with each other. At least we all value M and are working to understand and apply the MB concepts.<p>But then it still comes back to resolving the R we're in before we can effectively contribute to a new one, no matter how nice and MB-educated we all are.<p>Probably more than anything we demonstrate something to ourselves when we take the Plan A/B road, and if you're an attractive option now, JR, just think how much more so you'll be at the end of that road! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You're still young and don't have the complications of children, so if your W doesn't wake up during your Plan B, then the world is your oyster, and you'll be having a wonderful life full of possibilities to look forward to.

Melody,<p>I think that's why I haven't shut the door yet and am starting to think in terms of 2 years rather than the 6-month Plan A I originally started out with. I am existing okay now, not in total agony as I was earlier, but I know I want more than what he's given me so far. It is not only the A issues that have not been dealt with, but also all the pre-A issues that he is avoiding dealing with.<p>I keep trying to just let go for now and take a wait-and-see approach, but sometimes it grabs me by the throat again, and that's when you see me here trying to figure it out.

Conqeuror,<p>I have a question I wanted to ask and even thought about starting a new thread as I don't want to take you away from this thread...<p>When I think about your situation I often wonder if the fact that your husband was betrayed twice in two marriages that if his infidelity was some left over baggage/pain from those experiences...<p>NOT NOT NOT to make an excuse for him...but I really wonder about what that did to his pscyche...and if his infidelity in some way in HIS head really did have nothing to do with you...that he did what he did based on the overwhelming (at times) wonder and bewilderment that BS have...how many BS question how could someone do that...how could they risk this or that...how how how...and so many BS talk of having an affair in revenge...Is it possible that his actions were acted upon somewhat in attempting to experience that of which he had not done in the past? but was such a huge part of his life???<p>Again not an excuse...I also wonder if that because he did experience so much infidelity that he did not see it as affecting you especially since he had lived through it twice..and thought/thinks you will to...<p>Or that he sees it as something he "needed" to do to understand it better and really does see it as not an attempt to hurt..but his own actions being seperate from you???<p>OR??? (ok just tell me to shut-up)...Or does he deep down really know how much he hurt and is now ashamed that he caused that pain of which he so much hated... that he can't acknowledge what he did to you...because then he would feel that way again as well????<p>I guess I see your situation as very hopeful..he is with you...he wants you..and what I want is the two of you to be able to celebrate that choice and move forward together...<p>Can your husband discuss this with you...and have you been able to ask him without showing him your hurt...(not to deny your hurt)..but would he open up or respond if you addressed the whole situation differently???
Did he do it to get revenge on his past X-wive subconciously??
Would you like to tell me to just shut-up!!??? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I think you can get past this...I think you can be great..and be great with him...<p>Forgive my intrusiveness...
peace
ARK

I really seem to enjoy sf with my h even though we are still seperated... when we have it... but I actually saw a pic of ow on his current bed laying down... face only pic on the quilt his grandmother gave him for his new pad... it was on a cd he gave me by accident....<p>anyway... that pic really hurt... my H continues to claim he could not get it hard for her? everyone I know thinks it is a lie... at least those I have shared it with... there are other things too= that really make me wonder.... he sd maybe she could be pg? well that does not make much sense if he could not get it hd, ya know? at least you know the truth... my h has a drinking problem to go along with all of this... so lying is part of his problem... and I know he wants to hurt me as little as possible... so the lying is happening, and that just makes our relationship die a little day by day... it is sad... as I used to love him so much... and now he has become just a liar to me... in so many ways... <p>but not knowing the details and thinking his equip... did not totally work right for her, helps... I guess... but then again... like yall say the idea that he even did this, make s me so ill I can't even discuss it.... <p>good luck... I think choosing the pictures we put in our minds is a very good place to be... when you see a pic you don't like, just delete@@<p>H

OW#1 is still in our bedroom. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Funny though, I haven't talked to H about that lately. Stupid me!!! Because that could help him understand why I'm not 'into' sex as much as before.<p>I can understand the not being there during sex though. I do that a LOT. In fact, there have been very few times in our recovery that I've felt emotionally connected to H during sex. To put a number on it, maybe 10 times?? Not a very good total for being in recovery for 10 months, huh? Hmmm... once a month emotional connecting. I want more than that, that's for sure!<p>I have been practising the slide show in my mind though... but it doesn't always work. Obviously, I'm just not practising enough! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I wish I could say that in 'time' you'll overcome this feeling... but I can't, because I haven't escaped it yet either. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Karen

Honey,<p>Just FYI, ejaculation can happen even when it is soft. Not that it helps, but at least it's a little more info.<p>Ark,<p>You are right that there could be many reasons, but since he will not talk about it with honesty and openness or seek help from a therapist or even read a self-help book to try to understand why he would do something like that, there is no way for me or even him to know--hence my massive insecurity about remaining in the M. Prior to his A, he had nothing but contempt and ridicule for "cheaters".<p>Here's something scary: He even made fun of Clinton in the clips of him lying (JUST LIKE H DID TO ME!!!) during that HBO Monica program just like he used to before his A. It's like he's dismissed it from his mind that he's done the exact same thing. It seems like major denial to me. If it were me, I'd be aware of my pot status (pot calling the kettle black) and keep my mouth shut because of my embarrassment and shame.<p>Or could it be he was making fun of Clinton's WAY of lying, that he was not as good at it as himself? I just don't know. It is all so foreign to me. It really is like living with someone from another planet.<p>Mostly the reason I believe he chose to do the thing that would hurt me the most is because of the obvious premeditation. Before we married, we had hours and hours of talk about M and how it felt being a BS, and we agreed that there was never a need for an A, and that should either one of us want someone else, we would just tell the other and end the M rather than doing all the backstabbing stuff. So, we didn't just have the marital vows. We had a very SPECIFIC agreement over and above the vows about THIS EXACT THING that we both had lived through before.<p>Also, the things he said and did prior to the A point to either premeditation or previous As. Another clue to that is his statement that when he "stuck it in" for the first time with this OW, he told himself, "Well, there goes 10 years down the toilet."<p>As all BS here know (and as HE very well knows), he destroyed the M long before he "stuck it in". This was a full-blown "love" A with plans for the future and all that, so I am left to wonder how many women there were with whom he didn't "stick it in".<p>During his pre-WS days, he certainly had no problem articulating the betrayal BEFORE it gets "stuck in", so to now assert that he crossed the line at that point tells me he moved the line and the previous line may have been crossed many times for all I know. He does admit to women pursuing him "all the time", so I'm just left to sit here wondering and guarding myself to the max until the truth comes out.<p>I think it is most likely that since we were both so withdrawn from each other for so long that he decided to get me before I got him, that he wasn't about to be rejected and betrayed by a third W, so he did the rejecting and betraying first.<p>It's true that I might have left him because of his increasing cruelty, but I never would have been unfaithful behind his back. I would have FOLLOWED THROUGH with our premarital agreement and told him UP FRONT that the M was not working for me anymore and I wanted out. In fact, I considered it many, many times, but I always decided to keep trying.<p>Anyway, I don't really care WHY he did it because there is no acceptable reason for it, but I need to know that HE understands all the whys and hows and has given some THOUGHT and taken some ACTION to correct this character flaw before I can even think about a future with him.<p>I'm just so tired of it all. I've done all the hard work. I've faced what I did wrong, owned it, and even started working on all of it months before D-day (which is what I believe provoked D-day actually), and after D-day, I opened up and shared all that with him, expressed remorse, asked for forgiveness, asked for help in determining his unmet needs and went to work on meeting them. I've read tons of books and talked to A survivors to learn all I can. I've been pretty consistently walking the walk. Even he agrees.<p>So I feel like my work is done or at least is being done, and I'm STILL waiting for him to come clean and get real and DO THE WORK. And now I'm getting tired of waiting. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
So I feel like my work is done or at least is being done, and I'm STILL waiting for him to come clean and get real and DO THE WORK. And now I'm getting tired of waiting. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [/QB]<hr></blockquote><p>Conqueror-<p>I understand and am living the same pain. About the bedroom...I thought I had been able to get rid of pictures of my W and OM1 together. But learning about OM2 was a shock and then knowing that they used my bed (as well as others in my house) has made everything more difficult. Oh well, it is not like sex is even an option right now. I'm not sure I even want to make love to my wife anymore after continued lies and deceit.<p>Hope you can find strength and that you WH will get with the program.<p>HoFS