Nikko - trust is very important in a marriage. ONce your spouse has had an affair, (I am the BS, my WH posts here) the trust cannot be gained until the WS shows, compassion, thoughtfulness, NO LB, the Harley plan. Steve Harley told me the trust will not come back 100%, but it will come back and be comfortable, as long as your WS works on doing these things, and also, trying to meet your EN. I asked the same general question, how long. It depends on the 2 individual people. When you have one that wants the marriage, and the other, it won't ever come back. Some take longer than others, and some will get it right away. It hurts like h*ll! I KNOW!!!! This person, you gave your life to, you gave your body to, you gave children to, you basically lived most of your life with this person. I know it hurts, WH and I have been married for 24 years, and WH wants a divorce. He posts divorce is nothing big. Just another part of ones journey. Like lets just do it, get it done, and move on to the next partner. Dump the wife, who cares, she will be OK in due time, we'll just keep her on drugs until she gets her life back together. The WS doesn't care about our feelings (BS), they want what they want at all expense. Vent here, tell us how crummy you feel. Can't help with your ? on trust. I don't have it, and WH doesn't want recovery.

Nikko,<p>I think you're in a "normal" place right now. I'm a couple months farther along the timeline than you, and when I look back, I don't know how I managed to hang on long enough to get here. I know many times I did it for the people here who were helping me. Since they answered my calls for help, I felt obligated to see it through. I'm not feeling as trapped and hopeless as I did when I was where you are on the timeline.<p>I did finally confront my H about my needs regarding dealing with his A at the 4-month mark, and there has been some improvement in the way he interacts with me, but still no dealing with the A, and now I'm nearing the 6-month mark. I'm thinking about laying it all out again and telling him to put up or shut up on the 6-month D-day anniversary.<p>I think as long as I am silent, it makes my life easier because I'm not being so LBed by his unsatisfactory responses, but I think it also gives him the impression that all is well, that he's managed to get that Get Out of Jail Free card and avoid what he doesn't want to deal with. But the M can't survive this way.<p>Somewhere there is a post where Lora shared a plan that Steve Harley advised where she approached her H a little bit at a time in 1-week intervals. Might be on the Recovery board. If I have time, I'll try to find it.

Got board error message.<p>[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

dear conqueror- it was good to hear from you again, thanks. i guess it helps to hear some of what im feeling is "normal". i just feel so unsure. have to go cook dinner for everyone now. and the kids are making me nuts on top of everything else. god if i make it through this day without hurting someone it will truely be a miracle! check back later if i can.

bump for the sage ones-hopefully i will check back later after my company goes home. at least the cooking is helping-i love to cook. we are having pork tenderloins with a white wine and mustard cream sauce. organic salad with a warm bacon mustard dressing, and potatoes gaillette. no desert-im hoping they leave early.

Sorry Nikko, no sage advice, but your last post is making me hungry. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I also am wondering what level of trust I can live with. If that nagging voice of mistrust will ever NOT pop up every day. <p>Have you thought about going to a ME or retrovaille weekend? I am going to try to get my wife to agree to go. Supposedly the big point is that they help with REAL communication, which I think what is missing in my M recovery, and yours from what it soundslike too.<p>-HI

I have attended the Retrouvaille and it was great. It would have really helped me if my H would have been willing. I highly recommend it.

hey hangin- sorry for making you hungry and sorry for any typing errors-i almost lost a finger to a serrated edge tonight. i have been thinking of the weekend retreats but am still dealing with an emotionally closed off person. im not sure now is the time. i have the thoughts and conversations in my head-its just i know its gonna go nowhere if i tell him because he really is an emotion avoider and conflict avoider. he needs professional help. i cant fis him nor will i try. i guess my recovery depends on what he does or doesnt do. i just dont think he understands how at the end i am getting. i dont want the quick"let me do this for a few days and she will be ok" i want him to work on himself and get the help he needs to be a better person emotionally. there is a lot of baggage-lost his dad at 8yrs old and some dysfunction in family. he cant deal.<p>anyway i had to love dinner-it went great and the evening was quick. his sister was nursing a MAJOR all day hangover from going out with a male friend last night till 3 in the morning. gotta love that.

hoping for more replies

nikko,<p>I see in your posts on this particular thread that your issues go much deeper than trust.
Perhaps if these issues were resolved then trust could be restored somewhat or at kleast be moving in the direction of building trust.
I see that you feel that your needs aren't being met at this time and your H is quite happy with this arrangement (you meeting his needs and him carrying on his merry little way). Am I correct in this assumption?
The problem is...that even when contact has stoped the WS remains "in a fog" for some time afterward. They may miss the OP, they may wonder about the OP, they may just feel in a funk because their fanatasy was blown to bits.
Time is the best cure and although I know you didn't want to hear that it is the truth.
I am hardly qualified to remark on how long it takes, so I am not the person to ask, but you could do some research and brush up on the articles in the website.
What are Plan A and Plan B?
I know you have been here for sometime so you may have already read them but it always helps to brush up on the basic concepts once in awhile. (I know I did)
Also, I don't know if you have the finances to do it but you may consider calling the Harleys, they could come up with a working plan for you and possibly for your H if he is willing.
I just wanted to add that Plan B is usually put into place when the WS refuses to stop seeing the other person and their behavoir at that time is jeopardizing the love of the BS...it is designed to protect whatever remaining love the BS has for the WS...not to "show them what it's like without me". <- that is one of the biggest misconceptions about plan B I think.
I don't know if plan b should be an option for you at this time.
Anyway, I just wanted to add a few thoughts for you. I hope I have helped a little.

dear nicole thank- ill take any help/advice i can get. he is quite content with all his needs being met and the way things are. you nailed that one. the problem is my love bank is almost non existant. i dont know how to handle this. i cant force him to get help-that wont work- yet i cant continue this way either. the plan b idea isnt out of ill show him-if that were the case i would have been gone a long time ago. i and my children would be fine on our own financially. i just dont know how to move foward without hurting him or myself. if possible i may call the harleys. i have to work that out. i just want him to stopp stalling and either get with the program or let me know what his plans are. i dont even know for sure if contact has ended. he says yes but the trust thing prevents me from believing him on that. its just all so confusing. i just want to talk to people that may either be in this situation or have been through it allready. they all seem to busy with other threads though. i thought about the weekend retreats but what good will that do for someone who isnt ready to deal with their own emotions???

nikko,<p>I fully understand where you are coming from, the whole trust thing is very hard to work out.
I for one was never able to fully trust my H again. He worked on the road and although didn't see the OW daily was still in daily contact with her for work. (they work for the same company but were 1000 miles apart - he had to report to her as she was his bosses assistant). Everytime he left home to go to work on the road (which was more often than not) I got huge knots in my stomach and feared that he would just keep on driving. This went on for several months and during that time he would argue the need to keep a friendship with her, he felt that since he needed to speak to her daily for his job he should be friendly to her and remain friends...problem was it was just them clinging to whatever they could hang onto. During this time he did an extremely poor job of meeting my needs and I must say my love bank was in the red on several occassions. I stuck it out and Plan A'd the best I could for over a year of him being in almost daily contact with her. About 2 months after the 1year anniversary of d-day he was transfered out of the OW department and for once I could breathe easy.
I think that in a "normal" marriage ours might have survived. Once we got past the daily contact and he started seeing the affair and the OW for what they were things could have improved along the Harley model.
Our marriage, however, wasn't normal. It took the affair and me working on myself and our marriage through Plan A to see that. My H had been severely damaged as a child in a way that produced a very sad and very angry adult. He has never been able to work past the issues of his childhood and so took his anger and sadness out on our relationship and on me.
He was abusive and was unable to stop and so I told him he had to go. We are separated right now and he says he is willing to do whatever it takes to gain his family back.
I guess we'll see where that takes us, I'm not too sure at this point.<p>I hope I didn't discourage you too much by sharing so much I just wanted you to know more of where I am coming from when I give you my point of view.
I know the Harley methods do work. I have seen marriages that looked like hopeless cases rise up from the asses. I have seen some WS's that seemed so lost in the fog that they looked like they would never come out of it. And then there are some people (like me) who are survivors even though their marriages didn't survive.
Nobody can tell you what to do or what "Plan" to be in, only you can make that decision.
All I can say is Plan A until you can't Plan A anymore.
Again, I hope this helps...
I'll try and check in on you tomorrow. I really must be going to bed. It's 11:00 pm and I have to be at work at 7:00 am and work for 12 hours [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
God bless

Nikko,
I don't know anything more about your situation other than what you've posted here, so I'm shooting from the hip.<p>See, the problem with early recovery is...it just ain't fair. The bulk does fall on the BS shoulders..up to you to lead the way, meet needs all the while not trusting and in many instances throughout the day, not even liking your mate...pulls even the strongest down..it sure did me!<p>Just a couple of comments about your post...did you ever get angry? Because it sounds like it is right below the surface just dying to get out. Now, I'm not advocating jumping down his throat with LB's...but it is possible to be angry at someone and not LB. It's done with "I" statements.<p>"I am angry that infidelity has put us in this situation"<p>"I feel mad when I realize how much trust I have lost"<p>Try writing some of this in your journal..then eventually, you may find that sharing it with him will be a release...again, if done in a non LB way.<p>You are in plan A, but it isn't all about him..It is about being you at your best..someone you are proud of..not a doormat, but a loving, capable woman. And taking sometime to nuture and rejuvenate yourself is critical. Otherwise you'll burn out.<p>My partner wouldn't read a book, counsel or anything at first...so I took the alternative road of leaving the relationship talks et al behind and concentrated on being his friend and playmate again..after a while, we connected better and then I brought up some recovery oriented things..actions I needed to restore trust and love..and then he was willing. It wasn't easy, but it worked for us.<p>Like your H, my partner has horrendous hours. So one of the first things I did was ask him to pick one day that he could be home in time for dinner and the evening. Just one night a week..his choosing..made it nice and relaxing..had a few tapes by the VCR, newspapers...things he'd enjoy.<p>It's worked well for us..recently he's decided to bring work home as it's much more enjoyable than "catching up" in the office.<p>As your H probably has to be on the floor in the evenings and weekends...maybe ask for a morning..nice brunch, a walk..kids at the sitters..something easy for the two of you. Or do something he enjoys. Mine is a golfer with no time to golf..but once I asked him to teach me..he makes time for me and golf.<p>As far as trust being restored..hmmmm..I trust him more now than I ever have before! Because now, we are communicating on some very touchy subjects and we've learned how to listen and not LB. I can tell him fears and feelings that I've never revealed to anyone, and know I will be respected and heard..no matter how silly or embarrassing. But yes, it took time and hard work..and we're not through yet.<p>I hated it too, a year ago when I started posting and heard that phrase "it takes time". I wanted an instant answer. <p>I like your idea of getting in touch with the Harleys even if your H isn't quite ready. I think it haelps to have someone helping you keep to a plan..a goal..and I've heard very good things about them.<p>Good luck...if I don't get back soon, I'm usually on recovery board.
T

dear twyla and patient love-thank you both for your input. im sorry to hear where you are pl, but you seem very strong. all this gives me new things to think about, thanks.
now to answe twyla's questions-have i ever gotten mad? not really, maybe on the inside, maybe in one or two crying fits-i was alone at the time. he has never seen my anger, im afraid to show him because im not sure if i can keep it in check once i let it out and he may not be able to deal with it yet.as far as spending time- we do as much as possible. we are leaving for fla. in a few days. we need this. i think part of the problem is doing things for me. im ok with doing certain things for me but i gave up a biggie- i love horses. there is a stable near here and i use to work there on sat. with my 6 yr old. we would clean, feed, water, care for the horses(25 of them) and would teach people how to ride. its 150 acres surrounded by mountains. this place and those animals were my sanity when he pulled away from us. it gave me peace and healed my soul. but he hated me going there. i think it had to do with dissconnecting from each other or he just hated at the time to see me get any joy. this was during his affair. i miss this terribly. my son misses it too. we didnt get paid, but we rode all we wanted. i really want this back in my life but am not sure if i should because of how he felt about it then. by the way-hes not home on sat. so it takes nothing away from him. what do you all think.

nikko, you should not give up the horses, and I think you are right, he did feel threatened by something making you happy he had no control over, so he took it away from you...these are the sorts of things that reveal truth about people, not the words out of their mouths, but the actions, especially the little actions...go back to the barn, have some joy and peace for you and son, you are a human being and have a fundamental right to self-determination, when we give that up we become property, and that is no way to live, and does not help a marriage either.

Dear Nikko,
You are pretty early in recovery. It's been less than two months. You don't describe what happened in the A or how intense it was..... I know my H, once the A was over, took a long time to start really working on the M and making some love deposits. After last contact, he was very work focused- just pretty much thought we would go on like nothing had happened. About 2 months after LC, he did put my wedding ring back on for our anniversary, and bought me another ring. But he was resistant to MB, wouldn't finish filling out our questionnaires until Thanksgiving, and continued to bury himself in work. We had a little honeymoon period Nov/Dec, and in Jan things started to go downhill. Like you, my love bank was drained. I was just feeling, he can't help me get over this. I went away for a week to see my sister, (with 2 of our 3 kids) came back and it's definitely been better. He realizes that it's going to take me a long time to get over this. I think when he says that he understands it will take time for me to heal,maybe a long time, but that he will be there for me while that happens.... that makes a huge difference to me. Anyway- for me it's been 8 months since last contact, and 11 months since Dday and we're just now getting to this point.
I think your trip to Florida is really a great idea, but maybe you focus on trying to bond and feel good, not too much relationship stuff....
Remember it's really early in the process.
You should keep working with the horses but can you ask your H why he doesn't like it? Could there be other reasons besides he just doesn't like to see you happy? Is he afraid that if you find happiness away from him that you'll leave him?

bump- ill be back in a while to answer

ok guys here's the update- i did something totally for myself today. after work i stayed and got a hot stone therapy massage. 90 min of bliss. it got rid of so much stress. i feel a little better in doing something for me. i think i will get back to the horses, they are a love and i have missed them soooooo much. i need to get MY life back. im gonna go to the plan a/b boards and try to get some encouragement and get ready for my vacation. i really need this trip. i have a lot to work out but for now i think i will just enjoy myself and say the heck with it all for 4 days. hopefully that will be possible.(heck-husband has been doing that for months!!HAHAHA)
anyway i have a lot to do so if there is any others that can offer advice or suggestions-please do.

bump for any other thoughts?