If a person doing bad things is NOT bad WHEN they are doing these things, what are they?<p>How then, do you decide whether a person is bad? Or is NO ONE bad? How do you define a BAD person? Is EVERYONE a good person, just confused? If a person continuously does bad things, they are not bad? Note, the emphasis is on intent and repeated misconduct. When one realizes a mistake/an evil act, and is remorseful, and changes the behavior forever, they become a different person.<p>How did the WS issue jump in here? WS does bad things repeatedly and purposefully - they're bad. They fix it, stop doing bad things; they are no longer bad.<p>I'm not sure how to analyze an analogy that compares an adulter and a 3-year-old in regard to bad behavior.<p>Estes<p>"Character is what you are when no one is looking."<p>"You are what you continuously do."

I think it comes from everyone acting and thinking like a child. I am so tired of this...when I first came here this was about helping people and supporting them in a time of great pain...I see tons of posts, but not a whole lot concerning saving and healing marriages. No wonder new people come here and want to leave...there is alot of hurting going on here, who here really needs more of that. I am thankful for the REAL friends that I have made here, and for those of you that gave usful advice and support...but I am out of here. You know, I have even been called a coward here, I think it takes all of us alot of stength to hold things up and together than to curl up and quit. I wish that I could stay and know that I would get support and not flamed for getting as much info that I can. But sadly I can't. <p>To all of the new people...please stay and get the help that you need, there are some beutiful flowers here despite the weeds.

My oh my.....the things that happen when you close your eyes!! I have been lurking for some time now. My work life keeps me going and I have not been able to respond on threads. I thank those of you that have kept up with me by email!! <p>I would like to say a couple of things here...
As a somewhat knowledgeable person, I am offended that my name has been bantered about in context with what goes on outside MB. I have never really felt that flaming threads do a darn bit of good....they are negative, counterproductive, and usually the aftermath of someone overreacting to a situation that could have and should have been dealt with privately. I find it interesting that to publicly flame another, we claim our rights to *having our feelings known*. If that be true, then "hate crimes" would not be a crime at all. Yes, we are entitled to our feelings.....but how those feelings are shown, shared, and dealt with are quite another matter. <p>Is there only one religion in the world? Who is to say that it is wrong to gather information in other ways than just here at MB. If one wants to write a thesis on maladjusted behavior, does one visit a classroom of only sane professors, or so-called experts, or does one go to where the "live action figures" display the behavior. Who are we to judge. <p>In short, this thread has once again shown what we know to be true....some of us feel it our "place" to set others straight. No offense, but how do you know that dragging my name across this thread has not done some harm to my personal life away from MB. How do you know that this attack, and that is what it is....plain and simple......an attack on your "perceived" lack of her character, has not set back her recovery by bringing to light facts that someone may have read, the did not need to be made public. <p>I still believe we must choose our words and time to speak them more carefully, whether here on the internet or in our own daily lives.<p>Finally, if you intend to use my name again in a flaming thread of one of my friends, please do me the courtesy of emailing me and asking first!! I believe I have earned that much in my time here. Thank you.<p>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<p>Trueheart

Just came home from work, and amazed at what is going on here. Sigh, I need time to gather my thoughts. It was never my intention to hurt, albeit rereading my original post I was quite aggressive. Which is unlike me.<p>I want with all my hear to see you reconciled FnH. It really does hurt me to hear of your D's pain, as I once saw in my own children. Noone deserves what you, or for that matter all of us have been through here. Referring to the state of our marriage's, and this post.<p>I am human. I see now my mistake with this post. I know, that I am dammed stupid when it comes to people skills. It just really hurt me to see her post over there. Why, I cant explain. I want her to win, to be whole again. And I reacted as if I had been the one rejected. Big mistake, I see that. I still disagree with her seeking out advice from 'the bad guy's', but that is her choice. She has the right, obviously, to do that. I myself, strongly disagree with it. But, that's ME, and it was wrong of me to superimpose that upon her. Totally wrong. I over-reacted, as I usually do when I am upset.<p>That is a charachter flaw in me, my own deficit, and I had no right to project it upon her. (Sorry for the third person reference FnH, I am addressing you, and everyone reading.)<p>I honestly never intended to hurt, but I see I was blind. BLinded my my own unfounded feeling of rejection. I took a very active interest in hoping for the return of her H. I discovered we are very much alike, similar life experiences. Both of us had previous control issues, (maybe mine arent as resolved as I hoped.) Both of us once the WS. Both of us horse lovers. Both of us loving mothers.<p>I dont know if an apology is even welcomed. But, I do feel that I must explain myself and my reasoning. Not make excuses, but to explain my thoughts/feelings..<p>I still hope the best for you FnH. I still see hope for your M. I still have faith in this site, even though I now belong to the group that has given us a bad reputation at MB. Cont to post here FnH. I will bow out. With a dammed broken heart, again, for hearting those I truely care about in my immature actions.<p>Sincerely,
Dara

First of all.....my definition of a bad person is someone who does things to intentionally hurt someone. Someone who is constant in doing things that are considered wrong. Someone who shows no remorse for their actions. Someone who does not learn from their mistakes and doesn't make amends for what they've done.<p>At one time....my H could have been seen as a BAD person.....he did all of the above for a time.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Is EVERYONE a good person, just confused? If a person continuously does bad things, they are not bad? Note, the emphasis is on intent and repeated misconduct. When one realizes a mistake/an evil act, and is remorseful, and changes the behavior forever, they become a different person.<hr></blockquote><p>Maybe they are the same person if they have multiple personalities. That is the only way to become a different person.<p>Through this whole thing our WS's are the same people. They are acting on different impulses and acting differently then what we expect or are used to.....but they remain the same person.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>How did the WS issue jump in here? WS does bad things repeatedly and purposefully - they're bad. They fix it, stop doing bad things; they are no longer bad.<hr></blockquote><p>How did the WS jump in here?
Because they have done all of the above that we both have mentioned.<p>What my point is....is that while our WS's are in this "BAD" mode.....we BS's continue to fight for our relationship with them. Not just for the relationship but for the person that we know they are. Why would you want to fight for a person that is BAD? Is it not possible that they will remain this way?<p>I think we all have to admit that it is possible that our WS's will not come back to us....and they will remain a bad person. Someone who shows no remorse for inflicting pain on another person.<p>To sit here and say that ALL OP's are BAD is ludicrous. Especially after the fact.<p>Do YOU know that the OP doesn't feel remorse for their part in the A? Do YOU know if the OP goes on to do it again and again. Do YOU know if the OP has learned from their mistake?<p>In the case that you make the OP your business then you might know the answer to these questions. But you've wasted alot of working time on your marriage and yourself if you put effort into talking or figuring out the OP. Since the OP is none of your business and you can only control yourself.
So....if you do have communication with the OP and you find out that indeed they are remorsefull about what they've done and they clean up their act and never do anything like this again.....are they now considered a NOT BAD person?
Not usually in a BS's eyes. They are still considered to be the bad and hideous person that the BS has always perceived them to be.<p>We don't consider our WS's to be bad any longer because we love them. It's so much easier to forgive someone that we love.<p>In the case where you never meet the OP and you don't know them.....have never talked to them....then you don't know. You can only go on YOUR situation and what your WS tells you.<p>So....to put THAT OP in a BAD person category is not really feasible. You know nothing about them other than what your WS tells you.....and we all know how capable they are of lying.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I'm not sure how to analyze an analogy that compares an adulter and a 3-year-old in regard to bad behavior.<hr></blockquote><p>Actually.....I thought that fit pretty well into this thread. Since when our WS's get involved in an A....they tend to act like children.<p>Besides.....as you said. Bas is Bad.
We shouldn't categorize it....since bad is bad.<p>The point is.....is if my 3 yr old grows up with me telling her that she is a bad person then more than likely she is going to grow up with a complex bigger than the state of Texas.<p>So.....should I be telling my daughter that she is a bad person because she's done something that she's not supposed to do? Or do I assure her that only her actions were bad and that she is not a bad person and that she should in the future make sure that she doesn't do it again?<p>This applies later on in her life also......if one of my children does something that they aren't supposed to and know it's wrong to do.....do I write them off and tell them that they are bad and I want nothing to do with them?<p>It's a double standard.<p>I'm sure you would never do this to your children.<p>In my case.....I've found that a part of my healing process and recovery had to be forgiving the OW. This means admitting that she is not necessarily a bad person....but she made bad decisions.
This doesn't mean that I have to likeher....because I don't. And it doesn't mean I have to be friends with her....because I won't.<p>What it comes down to is this......even though the OP has done the wrong thing by you......so has your WS.
It's hypocritical of us to sit here and paint our WS's as a rose in the flower garden and paint the OP as a weed in that same garden.
They are both to blame for the same things.
If truth be told.....our WS's are more to blame than the OP. We don't want to admit that though.

How about this ....<p>The "ACTIONS" of the OP and WS (adults) are bad and hideous and we abhor them, yet the person chosing to perform them is human thus flawed. <p>So, during the time the OP/WS are performing these actions, they are chosing as adults, to be BAD.<p>Jo<p>[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Sorry dont mean to interupt, but would it be a good idea to make a new thread regarding what is a Bad person. I think the "faith N Hope... Very dissapointed in You" one needs to make its way off the first page since it is kind of discouraging to people.<p>Just my thoughts.
-HI

Apology accepted. I can see why Miss Priss told me not to look here until I talked to my H. It hurt and set me back lots...I can't say that I will trust anyone here totally again with the exception of a few...I hope you know who you are. Thanks for all of the defense...I will let you all know what happens with H when we talk today.
FnH

Besides, whatever happened to Charity?<p>(Duck 'n' cover... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith-n-Hope:
<strong>Apology accepted. I can see why Miss Priss told me not to look here until I talked to my H. It hurt and set me back lots...I can't say that I will trust anyone here totally again with the exception of a few...I hope you know who you are. Thanks for all of the defense...I will let you all know what happens with H when we talk today.
FnH</strong><hr></blockquote><p>FnH,
Look, don't feel bad about going where you need to get perspective. I read TOW and post there from time to time as well. I've never been flamed there, and that is not my intent either. When you discover an affair, you're desparately looking for truth, and part of that truth lies on the other side. I found I needed to see that other side in order to gain a balanced perspective. Now that I am gaining space from D-day, I find that I want to go to those type of forums less and less. My theory is that most BS don't really want to hate the OW. But the only way you can not hate them is to get insight into their experience. As painful as some of the things there are to read, it is also reality. Don't feel bad about what you do to move forward. As long as that is what one is doing by visiting other sites, I don't think any harm is done.
Best Wishes.
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