Not sure where to start, yesterday was by far the worst day yet.<p>W called me late and said I had to come over and watch the kids because she had to leave, she was in the middle of a severe life crises. I asked her what it was (like I didn't know) but she wouldn't tell me. I agreed but told her that I am done running over whenever she has a problem, that when it is her turn to have the kids, she needs to find another babysitter for them.<p>Anyway, while I was there, guess who calls the house, yep, OM. Apparently he didn't know that I was there and was expecting to get a hold of W. Needless to say, I had a few choice words to tell him, which I did, and then asked him to tell me exactly what was going on, what his intentions were. He told me that they never stopped the A after DDay, that he loved W more than anything and wanted to be with her forever, that she was the one for him. Well, that pretty much set me off. I told him that as far as I was concerned, our M was over and he could have her. Then a quick FO and I hung up.<p>That was it for me. I was furious, couldn't even think straight. The kids were really scared because I think they heard me on the phone. It took a lot to calm myself down and once I put the kids to bed, I started to pack up the rest of my stuff. I was through with W and the M, that was the final straw for me.<p>A while later, W came home and wanted to talk. I told her that the time for talking was over, there was nothing left for me here and started to head out the door. W got in my way and says "Look, I know that OM called here, he told me, what exactly did he say?" W got very upset when I told her what OM said to me, couldn't believe that he would have the balls to call me and tell me those things. W then went on a tirade about what a loser he is, what an @@@hole he is, how dare he call me and hurt me like that. W thinks that he did that on purpose, trying to get me to end the M so she would go to him.<p>But this is where it gets really weird. W told me that over the weekend, OM called her and asked to meet her in a parking lot. W shows up and soon after, so does OM's W. OM then tells his W, point blank, that he loves W and wants her, but also wants to stay M so he wont loose his kids. Talk about a cake-eater. W goes to leave, but he grabs the keys from the car and wont let her have them back until she confesses her undying love for him as well, in front of OM's W. I guess this made W realize what a sick relationship she was in and finally told him it was over, no friendship, no relationship, no nothing. But, OM doesn't want to end it and has been calling W, trying to convince her to come back, even told her that they should run off to Vegas together and leave everything behind. I guess that's why W left last night, she knew he was going to call her and try and get her back. What a sick SOB!<p>Anyway, we talked for a while after. W told me how used she felt, how disgusted she felt, how sorry she feels for hurting so many people, how angry she is at OM. Also told me that what I told her right after DDay, that he wont leave his W for her, is absolutely correct. W even told me that she doesnt know if she even loves him anymore after all that he has done. Told me that he will probably never leave his W and wonders if he will do the same thing again in the future with someone else.<p>This morning I told W to be very careful, that I think OM will call again, or even stop by, and try to get her to come back. W said she fears the same thing and hopes that she has the strength to tell him no. I told her to call me if she is having any reservations, that I want to help her through this because I love her and don't want to see her hurt anymore.<p>Cripes, here I am ready to go to Plan B, and now this happens and I just want to be with her and help her as much as I can. When will it end?

Bless your heart, LHS. I'm so sorry for the frightful events of yesterday. Looks like it's all about choices. Here's my thought, for what it's worth. You're to be commended for the desire you have to want to help your wife through this. As painful as it is for you personally. And I guess that's the beauty (?) of Plan A. You can do your best for your W, and if things still end up in D when all is said and done (not that that is a foregone conclusion) you can look back and know you were there for her, you did the right thing by her and as a testament of your love for her. Your love for her hurts you, I know, but your life is richer for having loved her. I don't know how this will all play out, but it sounds to me like your wife is trying to figure this out and you very well can work things out together if you give your wife some more time. I know you said you were ready to Plan B, sounds like this is the lifeline your marriage needs to get you on track together. What I mean by that is that your wife is having a wake up call to the type of person the OM is (ie not someone she wants at all, particularly in comparison to you, her husband and the father of her children.)<p>What turmoil. My counsel is to hang in there a bit longer. I think you may be able to salvage all and be glad you did.<p>Best wishes.

LHS --
So you're ready to go to Plan B?
Then proceed with your plan.<p>Here goes the roller coaster again. When you're ready to walk out the door you suddenly start hearing all the things you long to hear. Its nothing more than another delay while she works out her relationship with OM.<p>So do NOT base your Plan A/Plan B decision on the words coming out of your WS's mouth. Unless she's ready to take some ACTION -- like no contact, then NOTHING HAS REALLY CHANGED. She's just stalling you.

DITTO LEXXY!

LHS,<p>I'm very sorry to hear about how difficult your day was yesterday. It does seem like your W might finally be starting to see OM for his true self, and that she doesn't like what she sees. This could be a baby step toward a recovery for your M. However, as Lexxxy has pointed out, her actions are far more important than her words right now.<p>I personally feel you are making a good choice by helping her. However, you may want to consider putting thoughts of either reconciliation or divorce on hold right now, and just offering your friendship to W for a while. It sounds like she's in emotional turmoil, and she may need a lot of support in order to get through it all. If she's hidden the A well from friends and family, she'll have very few people to turn to for that support. That makes your friendship a true blessing for her. This may not save your M, but I think it's one of the best ways to demonstrate your true love for her. It will also help to keep your expectations low until you see some action on her part, such as ending contact with OM.<p>However this turns out, I think you should be proud of your efforts and your patience. Your W may not realize it right now, but she is very lucky to have you for her H.<p>Good luck,
BP

I understand what you are all saying about the actions speaking louder than words. Yes, I wont allow myself to get sucked into a false sense of hope, W is going to have to prove herself now. What struck me as being strange, was that when W was telling me all of this, I didn't feel anything, good or bad, it was just a 'yeah, whatever' kind of attitude. I asked her why I should believe any of this, after all, she has been lying and decieving me all this time, why should this be any different? She said I don't, but that it is the truth, that's why she came home last night to talk to me. W told me that she brought back all the stuff that OM gave her, his wedding ring, the CD's with the songs he wrote her, all of it. She even asked me to look in all the places she hid them in. Maybe its nothing, but it feels like a beginning.<p>One thing I did tell her is that I should be the one she turns to for help, I am her husband and the one who loves her. BF is fine, but I should be the primary support. She admits that she has/is avoiding me because she doesn't want to hurt me. My response was that knowing she is lying and deceiving me hurts more than the truth does.<p>Plan B is still an option. I think what was pushing me to that was the knowledge that something was going on, I just didn't know exactly what. My emotional and mental states were taking such a beating. But now, there is a sense of relief, knowing a little bit more, that maybe Plan B can wait. What happens from here, I don't really know. I have a lot of personal things going on (school, work, kids, moving) right now, so I will be able to stay busy and not worry too much about what is going on. I'll just keep my 'expect nothing and I wont be disappointed attitude'<p>It was just nice to hear that OM was doing some serious LB-ing and to be able to have proof that the A was based on superficial needs and didn't stand a chance at surviving. Funny how MB says give the A about 6 mos after DDay for it to end, and I am at DDay +5 ½ mos. Its also nice to hear that OM is going out in a blaze of glory, if what W tells me is the truth.

lhs - is your name still accurate?<p>I pretty much agree with Lexxxy, also.<p>But, given this turn of events, I'd ask your W the following questions before going to Plan B:<p>1. Are you ready to work on our marriage? If "no", then continue on your path to Plan B.<p>2. If "yes" to 1, will you write a "no contact" letter to OM? If "no", then continue on your path to Plan B.<p>3. If "yes" to 2, when can I move back in so we can get to work?<p>If you end up headed for Plan B, it may be appropriate to delay a bit to see what else happens. Given the performance of OM - if she's telling the truth about the parking lot scene - he's desperate and it could be unraveling. It may not be necessary to go to Plan B if she's telling the truth. In fact, going to Plan B when you don't need to makes you look weird, maybe.<p>Good luck.

Two things I would like to have some opinions on regarding the events of the last few days.<p>1st- what the h*** was OM thinking when he asked WS and W to meet him in the parking lot? Was he trying to end his M and figured this was the best way to do it (WS thinks this is the case)? Did he honsetly think that both of them would be ok with this arrangement, that they would both agree to this swingers lifestyle? Was he hoping that one of them would choose him and the other reject him? Is this some kind of addictive behavior, or is he just really messed up?<p>2nd- Why the h*** would OM talk to me? He knew that I was at the house since my car was in the driveway. Why didn't he hang up when he heard my voice? Was he thinking that by telling me this, I would end my relationship with W and she would run to him?

Gosh, so many BS's here say that they want to confront the OP or the OP's spouse in the hopes that bringing the affair into the light of day will end it.<p>I think you have the same thing in reverse. I think he's bringing the affair into the open to push you out of the relationship. Maybe he senses her withdrawal from him?<p>As far as the parking lot incident -- maybe he's trying to convince your W that his W knows the truth. Maybe she has doubted him or his stories. (Gosh he wants to stay married? But wants to be with your wife forever? This guy is truly messed up. And frankly so is your wife!)<p>But the real point LHS, is that this drama is still in full force. Your wife already knows what she has to do for you -- until she DOES something you should not alter your plans. <p>I think WAT's dead on....unless those things are changing and happening...you stay on your path!<p>Maybe her confessions and confiding has made a few LB deposits, and thats whats delaying your feeling about Plan B. Thats cool. Just be realistic.

Let's play DEVIL'S ADVOCATE and pretend that what your WW said happened ACTUALLY happened. What was his motives.....they were HIS MOTIVES...he must think he has it like that believing that he can have both women! Obviously OM hasn't paid any consequences for his actions with either his wife or yours. Why didn't he hang up when you answered? For what? He already knows he can treat all people involved however he wants.

WAT-<p>Yes, I still love her, as much, if not more than the day we were married. That's what is so hard about this. Everytime I am ready to give up, something reminds me of how much I care and love her. And now with these recent developments, if what she says is true, then maybe there is still hope. Do I allow myself to get wrapped up in her problems, yes I do, but it is so hard to make a clean break from it, after all, we are supposed to be as one, and I guess I still think of us that way.<p>I like your questions, but I don't think it is time yet to ask them. But yes, they do need to be asked at sometime, not sure when that will be though. I know WS is really confused, scared, feeling betrayed, basically everything that I have been feeling these last 5 mos. I'm just going to try and be her friend for now and see where that goes. Hopefully it goes somewhere, but I have a feeling that she is going to continue to use BF as her primary emotional care-giver. If that is the case, then Plan B will be an appropriate place for me to go.<p>One thing that I do know, W and I have differning opinions about the M and where it should go. Maybe having OM out of the picture will change that.

lhs - I sense you have your wits about you and a clear head. I don't have direct experience, but from what I've learned, soon may come your biggest challenge - giving her support to withdraw. If you are the man I think you are, you will rise to the occasion. <p>It's soon time to be the hero, not the victim.<p>Find your strength and make an investment.<p>WAT<p>[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

LHS - sounds like the height of her affair just lost its atmospheric pressure. The OM obviously was using her. She seems to see that now, after a lot of damage and hurt was done. She seems to want to tell you how much she hurt you. A lot of us BS's don't get that, we have to ask for it. I know, I have to ask for it, my WH does not out on his own say, I am so sorry for the hurt I put on you and the family. I always had to ask for it. <p>Anyways, I will agree that you should plan A. Put plan B on hold for now. I would have the two of you go to counseling, have her sign an agreement, that the OM is totally gone, she shows you all the stuff (so far she has done good), you get to burn the stuff - together, you two send a letter to the OM saying it is over with - and both of you sign the letter. We did this, and talked to my WH a few weeks ago about it, and he said he did send the letter just to do it, it meant nothing. But he didn't want me, he didn't want the marriage, he was still madly in-love with the OW. Anyways, she has to agree to a committment. Then you know that there is something there. I have never gotten a committment, even counseling with the Harleys, he couldn't give a committment.<p>I would give her time, give her space, and let her talk openingly. According to the Harleys, plan a time (anytime good with you two POJA), that you two sit down and talk for 1/2 hour on what you each want to accomplish today, and if you two want to do something with each other. Like sit and watch a TV program together, make dinner together, whatever. Plan. This helps to focus you back to each other, and look forward to spending time with each other. Good Luck, sounds like you may have something to work for.

LHS ~ Dittos to what WAT said.<p>My best advice is to call Steve Harley before doing anything else.

My wits about me- if only you knew. I feel like a duck in water, I look fine on the surface, but underneath, I'm peddling like mad just to keep going. Funny you mention this, my boss took me aside and commended me on my ability to be so calm and collected through all this, said it takes a special person to handle this as well as I have. I told him that when this is all over, I'm selling the movie rights to Lifetime, should make a great movie-of-the-week.<p>Thinker- Your advice is good, sound MB principals, unfortunately I do not think W is ready to follow it yet. She is in counselling, but individually. I think she has to do some personal soul searching first before there is any chance of working on us and the M.<p>For now, I'm just going to be patient and let her do all the work. I am going to give her my copy of SAA, not so much to work on the M, but to give her some good advice on how she can survive this personally. I talked to her tonight briefly and asked her one thing, to be honest with me, she replied that she didnt know if she could do that. I said that whatever happens is ok with me. all I want right now is for her to be honest, I would much rather deal with the brutal honesty than the lies and deceptions.<p>BR- How I wish I/we could go to the Harleys, I know they could help us. But, I am paying an extra $700 a month for my own living expenses, $700 that we didnt have before. Imagine how much great counselling we could get for that!<p>Let me finish by thanking all of you here at MB. Once again you all came through and helped me out during (another) time of crises, and for that I am grateful. It is you finr folk who have helped me become the man I am today. God bless all of you!

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

LHS --
Just remember that ending the A is totally different than returning to the marriage.
And there is a lot of stuff in-between.<p>Judge for yourself how your heart feels and how much more you can endure.<p>Yes she may have said that OM is an A*(#*$& -- but she hasn't ended contact, there's probably still going to be a lot of drama with him (it doesn't sound like he'll go peacefully) plus she's got withdrawal and other issues to deal with before she might turn to you and say "lets try"<p>Protect yourself and watch the LB balance!
Take care!

Lexxxy-<p>I know that this drama is far from over. I also know that OM is not going to go peaceably. He is an addict, addicted to drugs, alcohol, porn and I believe A's as well, whether it be the sex part, or the conquest part. Now that his 'drug' has been taken away (both WS and his W), he will become very desperate. Heck, maybe W will file a RO on him as well, would that be ironic. I'm going to let him LB as much as he wants, the more he does to kill W's love for him, the better. But, if W's or my kids safety becomes an issue, then I'm going to step in wearing a very large boot, and you know where that is going to be placed!<p>I agree with your statement about ending the A and restoring the M, two totally different things. I think that is where a lot of the conflict comes from, W and I are on opposite ends of that spectrum. It has to be W's choice, I cant force her to return to the M just like I cant force her to break off the A.<p>August is my timeframe for making the final decision whether to continue or end the M. There is nothing I can do until then anyway, August is when the separation can be changed to a D. Besides, that will put it at DDay +1 year, long enough for me.<p>In the meantime, I will continue my Plan A. I am also going to start asking W for some small commitments from her, like I did last night when I asked her to start being honest with me, whether it hurt my feelings or not. I don't think that is being manipulative (if it is, please correct me), its just letting her know what my needs are. This way, we can make some small steps together and build from there. <p>One thing I have realized is how deep and true my love for her really is, I hope someday she realizes that. Regardless of how things work out, I am going to come away from this knowing what 'real love' is, the kind of love that endures, the kind that keeps couples together forever and the difference between this love and the 'lustful love' that most couples involved in an A confuse for real love.