Hmm here is an interesting article. I hadnt read through all the articles on this website so I decided to go looking here is one that says being co-dependant on your spouse isnt a bad thing....of course Im sure anything taken to extreme is bad.<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html<p>Just food for thought.
-HI

(deleted)<p>posting to this thread isn't worth the conflict.<p>[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

SNL - sometimes you see things so backwards [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Reread what he wrote - co-dependency is defined as the tendency to put others needs before your own. You accomodate these needs by ignoring your own feelings, desires, and basic needs. Mother Teresa is a good example. This woman lived in poverty, so others could have food and shelter.<p>Harley stresses that Joyce his wife is of utmost importance to him. He avoids doing things that make her unhappy. He protects his wife from unpleasant outbursts. He states that when his wife was angry with him, that he had something to do with her experience. Just as she protects him.
He states he tries to meet her EN and vice versa. They made a responsibility to make each other happy, part of the vows of marriage. <p>When he says someone I care about is upset with him, he takes responsibility for part of the upset.<p>Harley puts his own values and needs aside in order to preserve his relationship with his wife. He is to preserve his relationship with her at all costs. He expects his wife to meet his needs. He puts fear into someone is angry with him. <p>He states co-dependent beliefs behavior lead to healthy, happy marriages. Many couples over come the anxiety syndrome and destroy their marriage. Because it is all selfish acts.<p>SNL look at your uncle and aunt. They lived with the uncle being an alcoholic. He drank for life, (alcholism is in the family very strong). His wife was by his side, sure she didn't get the needs met, they worked together, and little by little the needs were getting met. He was co-dependent on her, and she on him. Did it make it hard in the beginning, yes, but they together decided to put each others needs first, and they are a very happy couple. <p>SNL you and I could of had a marriage like this, and what was stated earlier. But you choose to do what you wanted and nothing else. Selfishness destroys a marriage does not make it better. YOU WIN!!!!!<p>AS HIS PAPERWIFE - he states it isn't worth it!!!!! Does that tell you more about SNL and his theories of MB STUFF [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] Selfish, [censored]!!!<p>[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

I thought you might post SnL I wanted to know what people thought on it, I wasnt sure what I thought of it. I believe that a certain selflessness IS good. You cant have a good marriage if you are only worried about yourself. <p>Feel free to post your opinion.
Oh, Sorry thinker and Snl for starting an argument w/ you two.<p>
Hmm am I being co-dependant by worrying about you two? hahaha<p>-HI

ok, I have reconsidered, this is an important issue, and one I have heard a little bit about before, but first time I have heard the Harley position in detail....so I will repost my thoughts. There are many many people living in dysfunctional marriages, and being taken advantage of in a co-dependantcy sense... this article essentially suggests they are ok, cause doing such is what happens in healthy marriages....I disagee, if one is allowing this to continue, instead of saying no, and I will leave the marriage if I cannot get the same in return, one has to wonder why....and the answer lies in the realm of co-dpendantcy...<p>Anytime one remains in a dysfunctional marriage, pulling their weight, but not having boundaries, or letting those boundaries be regularly violated is co-dependant. And they WILL suffer all the consequences (including physical) mentioned. Harley used the example of a functional marriage to refute the notion of co-dependant behaviour, I find this perplexing, he is comparing apples and oranges for some reason....I agree, a functional marriage is co-dependant (using said definitions) but it is not a real dependantcy at all...it is a safe, nurturing, healthy place.<p>anyways here is first post..... and thinker, I think you misunderstood my position on the article, and applied it to our personal circumstances....if you want to talk about it I would appreciate you doing it in person to me, and not trashing my posts...thank-you.<p>
----------------------------------------------------first time....huh, makes you wonder what his (harley) agenda is, he just essentially said any marriage that doesn't have alcoholism is basically sound, and any problems resolved just by playing nice (to paraphrase). What about a whole range of personality disorders? What about verbal and emotional abuse? What about folks with serious foo issues, who will not work on them? What about a spouse who is into power? <p>Marriages are not ending cause people are selfish (although some certainly are), they are ending cause people have greater excpectations re them functioning in a egalitarian, nurturing manner....he also does not take into count motivation, whether someone wants to remain married. <p>I understand his point, and of course it has merit, but rather than complain about the misuse of co-denpendancy (which I seriously doubt happens very often, people are not stupid, and I don't know anyone who views a therapist as God, and does just what they say, people DO think for themselves), why not realize how many people have become aware of the dysfunctional marriages they are in, and taken action to correct that....said action including divorce if the marriage is not the safe, nurturing, happy place it should be (and like his is) isn't that a good thing...I wonder sometimes if he really gets it.

I think that what Harley is pointing out is that there is a "me first"..."my identity"..."my happiness" attitude among much of the conventional wisdom of modern therapists.<p>What Harley says is a healthy attitude is what I personally would define as inter-dependence rather than co-dependence.<p>Because when there is MUTUAL agreement to protect each other, and the focus is always on the protection and fulfillment of the spouse...it is similar to co-dependency.<p>The difference of course is that both individuals are making a choice to put each other first in a very tightly knit, intimate relationship. You shouldn't HAVE to have boundaries with your spouse, because your spouse puts your protection as the primary priority. This is based on the assumption that both parties agree that your interests, needs and wants are mutually and equally important. You become ONE - a team - that does not operate independently.<p>Modern therapy is often misguided, promoting a separation of self from the marriage that promotes devisivness. When MY interests are more important to me than my spouses...I start lovebusting and I can't POJA.<p>It would be impossible to act like this with other people. This is a relationship reserved ONLY for a spouse. You can't POJA anyone else!<p>Co-dependents on the other hand, put everyone and everything else first - regardless of reality or regardless of the harm that someone else may treat them.<p>Co-dependents do not respect others, instead they are so busy trying to protect others, they become expert at disrespectful judgements, and selfish demands. (Do it MY way because YOU are too irresponsible, drunk, dumb, wrong, etc to figure out how to do it RIGHT, which of course, is MY Way)<p>Co-dependents do NOT balance taker and giver. In fact, the Co-dependent Taker is in charge more than most realize - thinly disguised as a giver.<p>So anyway, I agree with Harley's definition, I think...I understand exactly where he is coming from with it...but I do think its really interdependence that we strive for in a marriage, where mutual protection, agreement and respect are present, rather than co-dependence.

br, I pretty much agree with your interpretation of "healthy" co-dependance, I like your new term inter-dependent, arising out of being one, also. But Harley laid down the ground rules, he tried to refute co-dependentcy as a bonafide issue, or maybe he tried to redefine it, I am not sure even why he wrote the article, I found it nonsensical...as in obvious.<p>Also all co-dpendent behaviour is not about selfish demands, and disrespectful etc... it has many faces...some very benign to the outsider (but just as debilitating to the one who does it)....we (humans) are suppose to be SELFISH, one who is not, is by definition mentally ill, or at least emtionally at risk...and that is the danger of co-dependentcy, it is a dysfunction to healthy selfishness.....if you are not constantly assessing your enviroment in terms of your own nourishment, you are at risk of starving to death, and that is what co-dependent behaviour is, it is emotional malnourishment, self-inflicted....and that is why it is an important issue, and one needs to look for signs of it in oneself.<p>As for the me first mentality of "some" therapists...sure, there are good and bad everyhthing, and includes therapists.. I see no signs of this being a serious issue in the therapists community.... but then I am not really in position to know, maybe Dr. Harley is, but I would need to see the studies referencing the methodologies being used, and the numbers with it. Personally I think most normal people are well-grounded in recognizing inappropriate selfishness, and do not seek it, or embrace it as a solution to what ails them....and if perchance our "taker" is acting out too much, most of us are receptive to looking at that, and making adjustments.<p>br...Modern therapy is often misguided, promoting a separation of self from the marriage that promotes devisivness. <p>snl...And what if the marriage is not a healthy place and the self should seperate? Wouldn't a therapist who always promoted the marriage over self be negligent? It is a balance, and the therapist cannot decide, only provide a sounding board, and insight, the partners have to each decide for themself where to draw the line between self and marriage. I really really have serious issues with any of these kinds of arguments that promote marriage over the welfare of the people in it....a marriage in and of itself has no value at all, and preserveing it just cause it exists is misguided, this is my primary concern over some of the MB principles, they don't always strike a good balance between discerning whether the marriage is a healthy place, and just assuming since you are in it, it is the best place for you to be....there is absolutely no logic to that position....much less any evidence.<p>br...When MY interests are more important to me than my spouses...I start lovebusting and I can't POJA.<p>snl...And that is when you must decide whether the marriage fits, if it does, this will not be a problem... if it does not, (and to the degree it does not)...you will have to work at making yourself fit...I am curious about that part of this.... the making part....how far do you go before you accept the special relationship of intimacy is not going to really work, and be special friends (based on history, and children) instead? One does not have to be married, and that is what permeates all this stuff (the notion of all or nothing), there are many degrees of connection people can have. And many many spouses make much better friends than they do intimates.<p>br...It would be impossible to act like this with other people. This is a relationship reserved ONLY for a spouse. You can't POJA anyone else!<p>snl...Exactly.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong><p>Co-dependents on the other hand, put everyone and everything else first - regardless of reality or regardless of the harm that someone else may treat them.<p>Co-dependents do not respect others, instead they are so busy trying to protect others, they become expert at disrespectful judgements, and selfish demands. (Do it MY way because YOU are too irresponsible, drunk, dumb, wrong, etc to figure out how to do it RIGHT, which of course, is MY Way)<p>Co-dependents do NOT balance taker and giver. In fact, the Co-dependent Taker is in charge more than most realize - thinly disguised as a giver.<p>So anyway, I agree with Harley's definition, I think...I understand exactly where he is coming from with it...but I do think its really interdependence that we strive for in a marriage, where mutual protection, agreement and respect are present, rather than co-dependence.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
I had a hell of a time understanding what co-dependence meant as well. I questioned Steve Harley about it in a recent session I had with him and how it might apply to my situation. He said that someone who is co-dependent tries to change the behavior of their spouse. So I would say BR pretty much hit the nail on the head with her explanation.<p>But I can see how people get confused with the issue. I'm still not sure if I understand it completely. In fact, I wonder if anyone understands it completely. I plan on talking more about it with Steve next time.<p>[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Always Hopeful ]</p>

I'm with Bramble Rose on this one. I too would define the giving in a strong, healthy marriage as Inter-Dependence. Giving out of choice, of freewill, out of a rich, well-rooted selfhood.<p>I am co-dependent, and am currently working with CoDependents Anonymous as well as a therapy group for Adult Children of Alcoholics -three sessions under my belt now! It's been eye-opening, to say the least, scary, exhausting. But it's worth all the pain and turmoil.<p>It's taken me two years and three months to finally GET it: Plan A is all about YOU, not your spouse. There is a huge difference between selfhood and selfishness.

My IC pointed out my tendancy to be CD; however, she also noted several things to be aware of as well. She also stated many of the things that Harley notes in this website. <p>What I needed to do was to see if any of these issues were taken over the line - or to the extreme. A couple of mine have (unfortunately) and it is something that I can be aware of in my mind to slowly try to curtail, back into the positive zone.<p>It really freaked me out (as my daughter would say) when I was told about this. I had no idea what CD was. Then, just as Harley mentions, I read each symptom and thought, "oh my god, that's all me"! I thought I had this great disease or something.<p>But now, after my calmer state of mind, I realize there are many CD symptoms that are good and I want to keep in my life. Others, I don't want to be so severe, so when I see them come out, I realize that this is my CD acting up again. I'm starting to catch myself before reacting.<p>Okay, I'm done and thanks again. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img]