……re: "I'll lie awake tonight with all the demons that he has brought into my life while he sleeps the sleep of innocence." (Quote borrowed from Tiny Dancer's thread.)<p>This is something about WS (at least some of them) that I don’t get. Like a bully kicking over sand castles or a punk vandalizing a home, they come into our lives, destroy it and seem to suffer no true consequences or remorse for what they did. Sure they may apologize/or not, sure the may feel some twinges of having done the wrong thing. But months later, the BS still is tormented, devastated and unable to sleep. The BS may have all the questions answered, expressed all the anger. The marriage may be in a good recovery. But that knot is still there, not every day, but still there nonetheless <p>All the while the WS sleeps like an innocent baby.<p>Though our recovery is going well, I am still on a roller coaster. I still have days when I hurt and cannot get the affairs and their details out of my mind. As I approach the first anniversary of d-day I know I’m in for a few rough weeks. Not because I will consciously will not let it go. I have done that a long time ago. It seems that there is something way deep inside that is not letting it go. I’ve read that it takes 2-5 years to recover from an affair. I can see why. There are some things that I guess only time can heal.<p>Recently I asked STL if he is ever bothered by the affairs anymore. His response was no, he never thinks of them unless I bring them up. It must be nice to be able to do that. It must be nice to be able to sleep at night.<p>It seems that the road to recovery is very different for the WS and the BS. I get the feeling that the WS ‘moves on’ much quicker.<p>My questions:
…….How long has it since d-day and the start of recovery? <p>……..Has the hurt gone away, I mean totally away, if so at what point? A good measure is at what point did it stop affecting your daily thoughts and life in any way.<p>…….At what point did the hurt go away. I mean totally away?
…….At what point did the affair induced depression go away… if you experience it at all.
……At what point did you stop loosing sleep because of the affair?<p>[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

Holding on to *painful* thoughts has a purpose!<p>Once I figured out why I was holding painful thought close to my heart ... I was then capable of making the conscious decision to release those thoughts. Basically, I gave the unwanted thoughts away.<p>"Here Lord, my God. I release these painful thoughts and worries to you. I surrender my pride, my rage, my sorrow to you. Keep me in your loving arms. My anxiety is removed by your Grace and love. Show me YOUR will, and I will follow."<p>It takes awhile. Keep reminding yourself to surrender the pain ..... then, the pain can move through you ... and away. God does not want you to get stuck .... be brave enough to let go!<p>Love,<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>

Pepper,<p>I agree that holding on to painful thoughts has purpose. What do you think was your purpose? <p>There was a long period.. say months 5-10 when I was doing very well. Recently it’s creeping up on me again. As though the roller coaster now has very long ups, and occasional intense downs. I’ve read posts from other BS’s where they say that the same thing happens. They are going along quite well and suddenly they are hit from seemingly out of nowhere. Wish I could recall whom it was, one of our members said that recovery is very hard. Maybe this is what they are talking about.<p>Sometimes I think that they are there to keep me from trusting blindly. If I don’t remember then I cannot protect myself. Does that make sense?<p>
How long has it been since d-day for you? Are you the WS or the BS? My guess is the BS.

Zorweb's questions:
&#8230;&#8230;.How long has it been since d-day and the start of recovery? <p>My d-day was October 1999. Start of recovery was the day after d-day.<p>
&#8230;&#8230;..Has the hurt gone away, I mean totally away, if so at what point? A good measure is at what point did it stop affecting your daily thoughts and life in any way.<p>The hurt has mostly gone away. The A no longer affects my daily thoughts. I think it was around 11 or 12 months (for me) that I no longer thought of it daily. I am still "triggered" at times, and every now and then will still have a VERY tearful, "stormy" day.<p>
&#8230;&#8230;.At what point did the hurt go away. I mean totally away?<p>See above. Still waiting for this to happen [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>
&#8230;&#8230;.At what point did the affair induced depression go away&#8230; if you experience it at all.<p>I don't have a history of depression; however, I began taking Effexor at about six months after d-day. It helped me tremendously. At about 14 months post d-day, I began to ween myself off the medication. Unfortunately, all my symptoms came back (anxiety, loss of appetite, crying spells, etc.). So, I had to start back on the meds within a month of trying to ween myself off of them. Now, I've been attempting to ween myself off of them again...and so far so good [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . I now only take one pill every other day and am getting ready to drop back to one pill 3x/wk.<p>
&#8230;&#8230;At what point did you stop loosing sleep because of the affair?<p>Oh my! I've NEVER lost sleep due to the affair. It's been a family joke for years that I can sleep thru anything (I've been known to sleep thru tornadoes, alarms, sirens, etc.)...<p>I'm not sure how I was able to close my mind off at sleep time...guess I'm just *blessed* that way [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . (P.S. Thank you God!)<p>Peace, ~Marie

Hi zorweb,<p>I agree it's not fair, but that's what we signed on for when we agreed to stay in our marriages. Our counselor asked me once if I was willing to "settle" for less in staying in a marriage where I had been so betrayed. While it is hard sometimes, I have to remind myself that I made the decision to settle for a situation where I can never truly trust again and have to live with the memories of betrayal. <p>I sympathize with you about going into the first anniversary of D-Day. I went through the same thing and every once in a while something will trigger the memories again. <p>The hurt has mostly gone away for me. I can go weeks without thinking about it. But every so often it will come up again and we will talk about it again. I have to say that, for the most part, I do have peace now and feel like it has been worth it.

Recovery is hard. I don't even know if hard is the right word, but it does get better, it just takes what feels like an incredibly long time (to me anyway).<p>It's been 2 1/2 years since d-day.....a full 30 months,27 months since H moved home after our short separation and commited to the marriage.<p>Zorweb, it's only been in the last 3 months that the daily thoughts of the A have left me. Yes, it's taken this long and my H has been a model H, no backsliding,totally accountable for everything, changed communication patterns, actively keeping a close walk with God, working hard to meet my needs, open to discussing whatever I need to discuss about the A whenever I need to. I could go on but I won't. I truly had a REPENTENT H and it still has taken me a really long time to start to feel normal again. Oh, and I did go through those spots where I felt really pretty good and then sunk into low spots, especially if something specific triggered them.<p>I've only now gotten comfortable and relaxed again. Only now do I fully trust my H again (fully, but not blindly mind you).The depression took a good year and a half- two years to go away, all the way away. I should have stayed on meds longer. I never really lost a lot of sleep over the A. When I did lose sleep (maybe in the first 6-9 months) H was losing sleep with me, staying up talking about how the A had affected me in places I would never have imagined possible. I can truly say I think I had post traumatic stress disorder.<p>The hurt fully gone? I still don't know if that is possible. I can finally have thoughts of what happened, even thoughts of OW and not feel hurt but if I dwell or analyze, then the hurt is right there again. So, I don't dwell or analyze much anymore. That's not even something I had much control over along the way, it just happened and like I said just recently in the last 3 months or so is really starting to move way into the recesses of my consciousness. Maybe it's due to the fact that I honestly feel safe again in my marriage.<p>My H says the same thing as STL about not thinking of it unless I bring it up. I think they still have their own triggers and think about it more than they are willing to admit.My H has said he doesn't like to "go there", just like he doesn't like to "go there" and think about the 2 months our middle son spent in the neonatal intensive care unit having repeated brain surgeries. It's so unpleasant for him and he's really come to terms with the pain it caused me and his kids(especially our daughter, she will still mention how glad she is that he is here and her remaining insecurity just about kills him inside, I can see it)and he honestly is just sick about how he could have so foolishly lost the things that are the most precious in life that he really does try to not think about it anymore. I can finally understand that better. <p>If he sees I am still affected in some way or I happen to mention how some negative feeling I have is related to the fallout of the A he understands how it's all connected and has taken full responsibility for it and just works that much harder to get me over the hump and increase my sense of security. There were times when he might feel bugged about it and/or frustrated that it was still an issue for me or still affecting me but he always got himself in check and stepped right up to accept the responsibility and help me process whatever I was feeling.<p>Without his complete willingness to make amends I know I wouldn't be where I am now. That's why I always say recovery is so hard. It's hard under the absolute BEST of circumstances like I feel I've had. I can't imagine recovering with a FWS who is anything less that completely repentent,anything less than accepting of what they have done and taking full responsibility for the hurt they've caused, anything less than completely open and honest and willing to talk about any part of the affair at anytime (BS spouse has to be careful not to abuse this though), less than completely accountable for the things related to rebuilding trust, or making a less than a moderately consistent effort at meeting my needs.<p>I can see why for some it's just easier to divorce and move on. I think it takes two incredibly strong,responsible, devoted, mature individuals to recover a marriage after an affair.<p>You'll get through it if STL keeps doing what he's doing. It's still very early for you. I know it seems like "Wow it's been a YEAR and I'm still not healed!" That thought can get depressing. I felt really stuck at 18 months, like I was never going to get completely past it, but here I am 12 months later and I'm finally starting to feel like I'm over the last hump and on my way to peace again. Hang in there, it's worth the work!

Never mind; re-read title and was reminded I'm not IN recovery. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

zorweb,<p>There is one more thing. And this is sort of strange but i think it is the direct result of having your pride wounded. But I often take great comfort in fantasizing about leaving him. It's really weird. I don't want to leave him now so I attribute these thoughts to the overcompensation of a wounded ego.

z...My questions: How long has it since d-day and the start of recovery? <p>snl...12 months from intial discovery, 8 months since I admitted to pa, 8 months since no contact started.<p>Has the hurt gone away, I mean totally away, if so at what point? A good measure is at what point did it stop affecting your daily thoughts and life in any way.<p>snl...That is a complex question, more applicable to bs as worded...a ws struggles with what happened and what does it mean (so does bs, but in addition they have trust issues a ws does not have...at least not from the affair...and IMO trust issues are huge, they are the pivotal issue).<p>At what point did the hurt go away. I mean totally away?<p>snl...Not really applicable to ws, but we do get distressed at the hurt of the bs.<p>At what point did the affair induced depression go away… if you experience it at all.<p>snl..I did, and it took about 6 months to go away, but still a little residual lingers on..probably stays until full resolutions are effected, and life moves on (however it goes)...it is being in a limbo state that causes some depression I think.<p>At what point did you stop loosing sleep because of the affair?<p>snl..I (like some) rarely have trouble sleeping...my theory is whatever is wrong will wait till morning...ya know?

Z,
Posted on your recovery thread and then saw this.<p>I think SNL said something that is at the heart of the matter...
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>snl...That is a complex question, more applicable to bs as worded...a ws struggles with what happened and what does it mean (so does bs, but in addition they have trust issues a ws does not have...at least not from the affair...and IMO trust issues are huge, they are the pivotal issue).
<hr></blockquote><p>The trust factor is HUGE. The WS pretty much trusts the BS...but not the other way around. I'm talking betrayal here...not marital issues.<p>Shoot, I have to run, but there is something here...maybe it's the benefit of the WS getting to love and trust, and the BS gets to love and work on trusting again?<p>Accchhkkk..not coming out right, but I'll let it stand.
T

Where have all the WS gone? Long time passssing????? <p>Still looking for more WS input. Is it that there are very few WS here today? Or that they shy away from these questions? Would love your input.<p>[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

This is my first time responding to a post but since you have given me valuable input I will give some from the WS perspective, I dream about my wife 5 out of 7 days a week and pray for the opportunity to be totally accountable and submissive to my wife however it may be too late, so I will tell you that for us WS out here that hate what they did and truly want to save their marriages, while it will never be as painful to us as our spouses as far as they are concerned we lose sleep as well and feel pain if they are truly repentent and sorry.

A woman, WS, emailed the following to me in response to this thread. She does not want to post directly on MB any more, but gave me permission to post the content of her email in response to this thread. This is what she says...<p>Dear Z,
I read your post. I am a WS. I wanted you to know that I am going through total agony with what I did and I saw where you wrote "Do WS have an easier time getting over it vs BS" or something to that effect. I don't know the WS you are speaking of.. Are you the BS..? I assume you are...and I am not sure how any WS could sleep like a baby at night.. because I suffer day and night with what I did to my Husband.…… we have been in recovery for a year and a few mos. I saw Kim's response and I could of written the same thing, although I have been forgiven...I don't think I can
forgive myself, I try but its hard to do!!! I feel shame and guilt so badly that it eats at me day and night..I barely sleep and its been over a year. Mine was an EA no PA ...but still just as bad in my mind!<p>If you know a WS that can sleep like a baby..they are not sorry for what they
did and chances are ...they are STILL doing it...

As a former WS, I do think about it at times.<p>The bottom line for me, however, is to look forward--for that is where the healthy road to recovery lies: not only for me, but also for zorweb.<p>So I try to dwell on what I can do right now to make the marriage better, and what I can do tomorrow.<p>I, too, have been the BS. So, I have mused on this topic, and reached this conclusion:<p>zorweb, I think, is beyond the actual events of my affairs; what she struggles with is a deep uncertainty that has as its underpinnings the trust that exists in a relationship. That, I believe, is still mending. Emotionally, we have rebonded, and in most ways, our marriage is much better than before D-Day.<p>This is the issue with any BS: rebuilding the trust.<p>Trust, once violated, must be recovered an inch at time: not by words, but by deeds. After a sufficient accumulation, that aspect will fade for the BS as well. So it falls upon the WS to constantly demonstrate faithfulness, to always be willing to discuss any issues the BS has remaining, and to live the Harley principles every day.<p>In time, the BS will regain the trust they had. But re-earning trust takes far longer than having it handed to you initially; so it is the longest part of the road to recovery.<p>Godspeed,
STL

I have a question that loosely relates to this thread.<p>The pain apperently will not dissapear for quite some time while the WS is always the first to recover and want to move on. <p>OK, what if the BS leaves the WS cold, forgetting about recoverring within the marriage and deciding to move on. Does this pain of betrayal and the triggers go away sooner for that BS? Is this pain we continue to feel due to our constant reminder that the same person is with us and capable of doing it again? If we find someone else, or just leave the relationship to protect ourselves, does the healing process speed up?

VeryhurtHarley<p>Your point is one that I’ve wondered about. Generally I think that the overall pain is less over the long haul if the BS leaves the WS.<p>So now why do I believe this?<p>First from experience. When I left my XH it was cathartic. It felt like shedding tons of emotional garbage. Sure it was tough, but I made the decision. I had the control. And there were many things that I would never have to learn to deal with. I did not trust him, he was abusive and had many affairs. In never had to dig deep inside of myself to find the love and compassion to trust and love him again. I just walked away.. not easily we were together 14 years. The marriage was horrible for 7 years. But when I did walk I was free.<p>
If the BS leaves, they still have issues to deal and heal. But…. In recovery, the BS has to also face some really tough issues pertaining to continued living with WS. It’s very hard to be around a person who has hurt you so deeply. It’s also hard to trust again. It’s a lot of work.<p>I have a few more theories. <p>A BS who feels that they contributed a lot to a bad marital state leading up to the affair will probably heal more quickly. It’s as though they feel they brought it upon themselves. So it’s easier to understand why the WS strayed. And it’s easier to forgive the infidelity.<p>A WS who feels that the marriage was essentially good and who has no real anger issues with the BS will have more guilt, remorse, etc. They will take longer to heal. <p>IMHO this is just normal human behavior.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Twyla:
<strong>The trust factor is HUGE. The WS pretty much trusts the BS...but not the other way around. I'm talking betrayal here...not marital issues.<p>Shoot, I have to run, but there is something here...maybe it's the benefit of the WS getting to love and trust, and the BS gets to love and work on trusting again?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know this is one of the things that is very difficult for me. If our M remains intact, my H gets to have what I never will--the exclusivity of a permanently monogamous spouse and KNOWING that he has a partner who will be there for better AND for the absolute worse. I will never have that feeling that I am unique and special to him ever again, and I will never be able to count on him when the going gets tough.<p>I am JEALOUS of this because it is not fair. And in order to continue this M I have to give up on EVER having that in my life. There is a fundamental inequality in it. He will always have what I can't have.<p>Harley,<p>From my experience with my H being the BS in both of his previous M and then for some God-knows-what-reason choosing to become the WS in his M to me, the die-hard FAITHFUL W, I wonder if just walking away from his previous two Ms upon discovery of the infidelity didn't in some way contribute to his acting out as a WS in MY M.<p>By not working through all the issues surrounding infidelity as all of us here are trying to do, maybe a BS predisposes themselves to repeat the pattern. In my H's case, his mindset has always been that he married the wrong person (in hindsight I now recognize this should have been a GIGANTIC RED FLAG to me!), so he tried to do a better job of "picking" the second time around, but ended up being a BS again.<p>Then, the third time, he was even MORE selective, my biggest selling points to him being my religious upbringing and commitment to God and my 17-year track record of being faithful to my first H. He knew I could go the distance without cheating. So this time he repeats the pattern by inserting the infidelity HIMSELF. I am still in shock about it!<p>In my case, I walked away from my WS in my previous M, but I also did a whole lot of reading and therapy in between Ms and owned my part in the deterioration of my first M and set my goals for not only making a better, more informed selection of a mate (teenager first time around), but also making sure *I* was a better mate, someone *I* would want to be married to. I remember one of the books I read said it's not a matter of FINDING the right person, it's a matter of BEING the right person.<p>But now here I am again at the end of a M destroyed by infidelity, so all my efforts were to no avail. So I'm trying to do even more to figure out what I missed figuring out the last time around. I just add these observations because I suspect that without doing the hard work of discovering, addressing and working through all of the issues, we probably set ourselves up for failure in the subsequent R. Dr. Phil sure makes that case.<p>One good thing, though, is because of all the reading about marriage and infidelity I did, including HNHN, I was able to recognize MY vulnerability to an A in this M and guard against it. I wonder what would have happened if I hadn't done all that research between Ms.

Zorweb,
Hello there...I haven't been around in awhile, but I felt the need to contribute here from the unique perspective of being both WS and BS at the same time.<p>I think the differences in healing between the WS and BS is really one issue: the WS is the only one who really knows the truth about their feelings on the A. If a WS gives up an A and comes back home to work on the marriage, only they can know their own heart, only they know that they are sincere in wanting the marriage. Only time and work can prove these feelings to the BS, and as others have mentioned, I know this takes a long time.<p>As a BS, what I wonder about is...how does the way my H feel about OW compare to how he felt or feels about me? Even if he decided to work on our marriage (which he hasn't) I would wonder for a long time how he could have fallen in love with someone else...how could he have those same feelings for someone other than me? Where do i rank in his heart? Does he really want me, or did he decide to try out of guilt or something else? <p>Before his A, I knew that ours was the deepest and most intimate relationship my H ever had. I thought our feelings about each other were unique and special, not to be had with anyone else. Now that whole belief system is shaken..and I believe it's the same with every BS and WS. We believe that we are uniquely able to make our spouses happy and meet their needs...and we are shaken to the core to find out that someone else can do it. We no longer feel special or different or "best." Maybe that feeling can come back with the passage of time and two people working hard at the marriage...but i'm sure it would take a long time.<p>Just my two cents.<p>Calla

Sometimes when I get blue about my WH, I remember back to all of the things I was doing wrong that contributed to the A in the first place. Then I think about how "right" I am doing these things now and it gives me comfort to know that there IS something I can do and continue to do to help my WH be strong. Our interaction with each other is so much improved from the months, even years, proceeding the A. I know that if I can sprinkle and eventually soak our days with these positive moments, that my depressed moments will not be dwelt on by either of us as much. We are to the point now where we try to restrict talking in depth about the A except for 1 hour a day. That's to keep him from constantly dreading me bringing it up, and to help me control my thoughts. If I think of something I want to ask, I save it for that hour. So far it seems to help. We still talk about things such as our feelings for each other at anytime. But like many WS, he does not want to have to constantly reach back into his memory and bring up some little detail that I've just decided to ask about out of the blue.
For you WS, is it true that you don't even want to think about it anymore? I've asked him to describe how he feels about her now to me, to write it down. Well he wrote that he couldn't stand to see her or hear her voice (he still works with her), but he didn't say why. He says he doesn't want to think about her or how he feels about her long enough to write it out. Should I press for an answer to this question? Since he still sees her every day?