Here goes~<p>(why do I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach as I'm typing this?????)<p>After much consideration (and maybe waffling) I've made the decision to not tell my husband about the 2nd guy.....at this point.<p>Here is my reasoning......<p>During our conversation we both decided to fill out the emotional needs questionnaire. Hubby's isn't completed yet but he did complete the section regarding Honesty and Openness (revealing positive and negative feelings, events of the past, daily events and schedule, plans for the future; not leaving a false impression; answering questions truthfully and completely).<p>Here are his responses.........<p>A. Need for honesty and openess
He rated this a 3 meaning he has a "moderate need" for honesty and openness.<p>Which of the following areas of honesty and openness would you like from your spouse (circle the letter(s) that apply to you)?<p>a. Sharing positive and negative emotional reactions to significant aspects of life.
b. Sharing information regarding his/her personal history.
c. Sharing information about his/her daily activities.
d. Sharing information about his/er future schedule and plans.<p>He circled a and d. He did not circle b.<p>He answered that he was somewhat unhappy if I failed to meet his needs in these areas.<p>B. Evaluation of spouse's honesty and openness: Indicate your satisifaction with your spouses honesty and openness with you by circling the appropriate number.<p>He cirlced 0 indicating that he is currently neither satisfied nor dissatisfied. <p>My spouse is (circle the appropriate letter)
a. honest and open with me and i like the way she does it.
b. not honest and open enough with me but when she does it, it is the way I like it.
c. honest and open with me, but it is not the way I like it.
d.not honest and open with me, and when she tries, it is not the way I like it.<p>He cirlced d.<p>
Explain how your need for honesty and openness could be better satisfied in your marriage.<p>Dedicate time to difficult (differing) discussions.<p>.
.
.<p>Those were his responses. We haven't had a chance to discuss each other's responses.....he hasn't even finished filling his out yet. Too busy buying a car, I guess. <p>At this point he is not indicating to me that he has a great need for me to be open and honest about my affair days. Either he suspects and has had his own personal reckoning with it and has let it go and forgiven me....or.... he doesn't know. <p>My quandry still isn't "solved", but I feel like I am one step closer to a solution. If he ever indicates to me he desires to know I will tell him. My decision isn't final.....it's what I am choosing to do "right now". I am hoping to make it to a MB conference at some point in the near future.<p>So, what do y'all think?<p>BTW- things have been better since our discussion and I truly feel that they will be much better after we discuss the questionnaire with each other.<p>selket<p>[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

hi selket,
Welcome to MB. Nice to see you are following some of the principles. It gets easier!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Hmmm, you do have an issue.
I always feel honesty is very important...but how much honesty?
Your h does know abt one a? Not about another? And you feel the healing has begun and you would not like the setback that this revelation would bring?
While I feel honesty is so important, the pain you cause another by telling these things is also worth consideration. Hasnt he had enough pain?
But.....as the ws, who gave you the power over what he should and should not know?
YOu will get a lot of varying opinions on this issue. If one follows harley's prinicples, then you are advised to come clean with everything, then begin the healing and rebuilding process.
But......since I was the bs of a serial cheater I might look at it a little differently. There was plenty of pain in learning of his last affair. Then the questions starting coming out of my mouth...I had no idea the answers would be so devastating or I may not have asked. Yes, I know the truth, but we would have healed the marriage if I had known of one or of twenty! All it did was cause more pain. It did not help us-both of us agree on that. He feels that the truth did not 'set him free'. I feel that he recognized and was seeking help for the issues and he should have left the rest of the crap with a priest!
It does get much more complicated than this...but will save it for another rainy day.
Since your h needs to work on the way you share and work on the future, maybe this is the best place to start.
Can he be a bit more specific about what he does not like about the way you are honest? And what he would like to see?

same position sel, it is not your call, you have no right to even consider not telling, it is his information to know...not yours, your post was just another bunch of transparent rationalization for continuing to decieve him, and IMO you cannot recover while lieing....no matter how youy bury it, or rationalize it, you are still hurting him....so one can only wonder if it is your H you love, or yourself and what you want...sorry, don't mean to be harsh, but you are full of baloney, and you know it.

Sel,<p> Yes, this is a tough spot you are in. I do not think you are full of baloney, boloney, or even bologna. What SNL fails to grasp in your post is that you state from the beginning that your decision to 'not' tell, isn't final. <p> I commend you on the amount of growth you have managed. You have not been a part of this site for an extended period. Yet, you are using the principles and see the value of them. <p> My take on honesty varies slightly from some of my more hard core friends. Don't get me wrong, I am hard core radical honesty. Where some of us differ is how or when that should occur. Many, and perhaps most feel that no matter the stage your at in recovery you should tell all. Where as I believe that you should be radically honest right at the start. On D-Day tell anything and everything possible. No lies from the start.<p> My feeling is that once you lie about some aspect of the affair/s. And even though you feel guilt for it. Perhaps that should be your cross to bear. Once your BS feels he/she is in a strong recovery, you might want to fully consider the damage and pain you will cause by coming clean with the lie.<p> I do agree that the information belongs to your H. Up until the moment you decide to lie. Then that information belongs to you. And you should live with any adverse effects. Up to and including the chance information will come out through another source. <p> Sel, you should have been honest from the start. You know this already. <p> Either way you decide to go from this point. Radical Honesty is a must from here to the bitter or sweet end. Be sure to think about what that means ie; if H asks about this OM #2. Then what? Another lie? I would be against another lie. <p> My .02 <p> Good luck and keep us posted.<p> jd

Thanks for the responses so far.<p>CL~ Hi, thank you for the welcome. I don't know if you've read my original post regarding my "quandry". I will post a link to it so you may get a better understanding of the full picture. Basically, my husband and I are 7 years into rebuilding. My point is, I want to do what is best for my husband, our family and our marriage. I never outright lied to him but I did not tell him the full truth. At the time I was too ashamed to admit it. Obviously my husband has forgiven me for THE affair (this other guy was a one time thing....I know, it doesn't make a difference)...and he has also forgiven me for many things I did at that time of my life.<p>Here is the link.......<p>My original thread<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But.....as the ws, who gave you the power over what he should and should not know?
<hr></blockquote><p>Honestly, I gave myself that power when I decided not to divulge the information. I made a poor choice at that time, I should've revealed all and we could have moved on (or not) from there.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Can he be a bit more specific about what he does not like about the way you are honest? And what he would like to see?<hr></blockquote><p>I'm sure he will once we actually discuss our needs with each other. Things have been extremely hectic around here lately...hubby is working 5 days a week and out of town both days on the weekends for this week and next week. If this is something he needs to know, then I will tell him and face whatever repercussions there may be. I am not the judge of what he needs to know or doesn't need to know.....he is....and by us filling out these questionnaires and (eventually) discussing them, HE will come to whatever conclusion HE NEEDS and I will go from there. I am not flippantly grasping for reasons not to tell but I am also not flippantly going to run to him and dredge this all up if HE doesn't need or want to know. Again, he is the judge of what he needs to know, not me. I will respect whatever his decision.<p>Your response gave me more to think about and I do appreciate it. Thank you.<p>
==================================================<p>Aaaahhhh! Dearest SNL~<p>At the risk of my own deflection I am going to say this....It seems you have the "radical honesty" issue all neatly sewed up, but what, may I ask, about the rest of the MB concepts? <p>Are you forgetting about the fact that he may not WANT or NEED to know? I know that doesn't matter to you, but it does matter to many others and it may very well matter to him. If you were my husband, I would tell you because YOU obviously have a great NEED for radical honesty.....however, you are not my husband. Truth be told [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] , my husband greatest emotional needs (at this point) lie in Recreactional Companionship, Family Commitment, and Admiration. And I agree with JD, you seem to have missed the part about my decision pertaining ONLY to THIS POINT IN TIME. I liked your recommendation on my other thread where you mentioned putting the ball in his court, so to speak, and that is what I am working to do. For my own sanity and security I will let him know that I did more things than I originally led him to believe and I will let him know that I also have worked through my own demons concerning this (yadda yadda yadda) and if he would like details, I will tell him...or he can trust that that time in our lives (especially mine) is over and done with. BUT, I will not unnecessarily risk his sanity and security for the sake of my own. As I have said before, HE will be the judge of what he wants or needs to know...<p>Baloney? I very well may be full of it, but then again, I may not. Baloney isn't the bottom line nor is it even an issue. My husband is. No marriage is molded from a cookie cutter.<p>Thanks for your input.<p>==================================================<p>JD~<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Sel, you should have been honest from the start. You know this already. <p>Either way you decide to go from this point. Radical Honesty is a must from here to the bitter or sweet end. Be sure to think about what that means ie; if H asks about this OM #2. Then what? Another lie? I would be against another lie.
<hr></blockquote><p>I know I should have been honest from the start, and if I had known then what I know now, I would have been. I was young and stupid and concerned with preserving my own hide with little thought of what my husband rightfully should have known. Radical Honesty is what I am striving for no matter the end. If my husband cannot forgive me...well....then he can't forgive me and that is something I will have to live with. If he asked me round about or even point blank if I ever slept with that guy I would not lie. I would tell him. However, he may not ever ask me but I want to open the door for him to know that I wasn't completely honest at that time. He can take it from there and decide what he wants to know.<p>I can't live with myself knowing that I am hiding something from him.....that is even worse than me admitting it and facing the shame again....only there is now more to it. I have held onto this for 7 years and I know he will have his doubts about me. However, that was my choice and one I will have to live with...no matter how all of this pans out.<p>Thanks, JD.<p>selket<p>[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]<p>[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

sel....If he asked me round about or even point blank if I ever slept with that guy I would not lie. I would tell him. However, he may not ever ask me but I want to open the door for him to know that I wasn't completely honest at that time. He can take it from there and decide what he wants to know.<p>snl..This is the crux of it, and where you delude yourself....he CANNOT ask about something he does not know about, and may very well beleive there is nothing left to know...that is why it is called radical honesty, and why you have no choice or say in the matter...you can reasonably assume the information is important, so you tell, it is that simple....his sanity blah blah blah, are none of your concern....EACH of us has an absolute right to our stuff, you are just RATIONALIZIN...I feel I am wrestling a bear here, I KNOW you understand me...I KNOW you know I am right, why are you fighting this, that is the real issue, has nothing to do with your H, this is all about YOU.<p>It is either a principle or not sel, you say you beleive and agree with the principle, but your actions say otherwise as you wiggle about trying to get off the hook.....fine don't do it, but don't sit there and say you believe in the principle, nor EVER complain to anyone about lies of omission, including anything your H ever doesn't tell you, for your own good of course...(pardon me I have to go find someplace to p__ well you know.....ok, that was kinda joke to make my point, I think you are capable of not folding under pressure, and I am leaning on you hard....why? Cause you are so close to doing the right thing, and actually having a shot at healing from the crap you were saddled with as a kid...and I want that for you. Step up to the plate sel.<p>btw, saying you will do it later is bs, and you know that too....you have no right to set a time table, this is NOT your decision, you are STEALING from your H, it is his stuff, you only have it cause you stole it...I wouldn't use that as an argument if I were you....adds insult to injury, and will not impress your peers (assuming you care what anyone else thinks....and since you are not a sociopath ..who definitely would make your arguments....then I do think you care.<p>I gave you the solution, why won't you use it?<p>Tell him you have some lies yet untold, feel the issues are no longer important, and will not tell him if he has no need to know, but is his call....do it sel, do it now, and finally start a real marriage based on trust....or a real life based on honesty if the marriage ends.<p>as for other MB stuff, can you be specific, mostly I agree with it...but I don't consider radical honesty a MB principle, I consider it the bedrock of human relationships, and an immutable psycholgocial truth, MB just puts it into pragmatic form. I would much sooner leave someone I don't trust then over any affair, without trust you have nothing, just a picture, and until you tell you have nothing sel, cause you are not real, you are a liar.....the ONLY way one can shed the status of liar is tell the truth, every single bit of it, and do not lie anymore, about anything (or if you falter, then confess shortly). The only exception is if you do not want to be married anymore, then it is your stuff, no need to tell him anything, but if you seek reconcilliation, you have to pay for it, and so far you haven't paid the full price yet.<p>[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Tell him you have some lies yet untold, feel the issues are no longer important, and will not tell him if he has no need to know, but is his call....do it sel, do it now, and finally start a real marriage based on trust.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree 100% with SNL, if your H really does not WANT to know then let him make the choice. Do as SNL says and tell him there is more to the story. And that it will hurt him but he may not want to know it. That will settle the question for good. However, you have no right to wrongly withhold information from him that is about his life. He has a right to this information. <p>If you really think he does not WANT to know, then he should decline your offer to divulge more info and you will be in the clear.<p>[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</p>

SNL~<p>Hiss.....spit....pffffttt!!!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Maybe I didn't make myself clear although I thought I pointed this out in more than one of my sentences.<p>I am not nor do I intend on making the decision for him.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>This is the crux of it, and where you delude yourself....he CANNOT ask about something he does not know about, and may very well beleive there is nothing left to know.<hr></blockquote><p>I was responding on the happenstance that IF I decided not to address this now what my response to my husband would be if he asked in the future. I felt that JD was creating a scenario of me not telling and him (at some point in the future) him asking me about it. You know the part where JD said "up to and including the chance that the information may come from another source"? That's all.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Tell him you have some lies yet untold, feel the issues are no longer important, and will not tell him if he has no need to know, but is his call....do it sel, do it now, and finally start a real marriage based on trust....or a real life based on honesty if the marriage ends.<hr></blockquote><p>That is the door I was talking about opening. That point....RIGHT THERE....will be the point where he will give me HIS decision to know or not. I don't understand how I could have been so confusing with my posts. I thought I made it perfectly clear that I am going to address this.<p>You underestimate me, I think, and I'm so p!ssed off right now I can hardly see straight enough to type. I will admit that I don't want our marriage to end and I would be lying if I said that I didn't wish all of this would just go away. But it going away doesn't seem to be the case, now does it? Yes, there is some (maybe even a great deal of) self servance in all of this. I won't deny it. And I also won't deny that I don't want to tell my husband unless he wants or needs to know. I really and truly don't want to talk about the Me that I used to be. Call it denial and maybe that is exactly what it is. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I gave you a solution, why won't you use it?<hr></blockquote> <p>I'm scared and I'm working up the nerve. I'm scared I won't handle this in the right way. This is a serious issue and I want to feel like I'm at least prepared for the discussion and the outcome. Not only the outcome and whatever repercussions there are for me.....but also prepared to see the hurt on his face once again. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Yes, I understand you.<p>selket<p>[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

Sel,<p> I think you are doing the right thing. You have all but said you intend to tell. Don't be rushed or pushed into telling until you are ready. No matter that others think it needs to be told now, right now. You are working for the best possible outcome for the both of you. Get the tools you need to give your marriage the best chance at surviving. Then do what you need to with the understanding that there will never be a perfect time. <p> I admire that you are a WS, want to save your marriage, and are going about doing exactly that.
Learning.....<p> jd

Selket, wake up!<p>There's a strange and cultish vibe here, and you're too wise to have to go along with it.<p>Your husband doesn't need to have his nose rubbed into every little thing you may have done many years ago. You're gone the extra mile to learn that, and to make sure that he knows that he trust you now.<p>Get out of this place.<p>That's just my opinion, but there's nothing humble about and it's my duty to express it.

jd...I think you are doing the right thing. You have all but said you intend to tell. Don't be rushed or pushed into telling until you are ready.....<p>snl...I agree, and said so somewhere previously, and is why I made a suggestion of letting him decide, rather than just blurting it out...the method of telling is important, and a little time... a VERY LITTLE time is ok....but it is measured in days, or weeks at most....sel has been struggling with this long enough, time is up....anymore and it is self-serving rationalization, backsliding etc. etc.... the clock starts ticking when you realize what you must do in life...the previous 7 years can be written off as growth, but the cost is the marriage is not real either...never will be as long as the lie stands in the way.... once once knows a truth must be told, about anything....you have a very very short time to deliver....not doing so, and using the excuse I am not ready is the most insidious way of rationalizing....some things, hard things, you will never be ready for.<p>I have some experience with this sel. I lied to my wife for about 5 months after discovery, claiming I never saw ow, was just an on-line/IM/phone EA. I lied cause I knew how much it would hurt her, and no need to really know...right? And in spades cause my issue was (and is) whether the marriage is even salvageable....but the real truth was though I didn't want to cause her pain, I wanted even less to have to deal with it...that is the way it always is sel, it is always about the secret keeper no matter how hard they wiggle on the hook, they fear loss, or rejection, or most of all facing the pain they are going to cause with the truth. When I finally told, (after being asked many times over the months), I still was not "ready" I had been dropping hints and such, in a futile effort to mitigate the actual admission.....more like getting myself ready I suspect... so one night, no special reason, just could not decieve myself anymore, time to crap or get off the pot, I either agreed with the policy of radical honesty or not (previous to studying that principle here, I was committed to taking the truth to the grave), I decided the principle was more important than any "concerns" and whatever effect it has had to be, or the world would never be even close to right again....so that night when she asked for the thousandth time whether I had been intimate with her I said yes (I had for a short time admitted seeing her briefly and just having lunch once....yeah stupid I know, but I am a ws, I am supposed to be stupid). Point is, I was not ready, I finally accepted I would never be ready, how can you be ready to stab someone in the back sel? (hint...you can't).<p>And yeah, no happy ending, it was indeed awful, actually worse than I expected, and I will have to carry that with me forever I suppose...not just the PA, but the months of lieing and stealing my w right to determine her life, her hope I was not lieing, and just see her worst fears come true....if I could do it over, I would have told her quicker....or at least said nothing, not lied outright. So sel you see, I am just as sorry a liar as you, I am not preaching from a higher position, I am beseeching you from the same gutter to climb out and do the right thing....give your H back his life, don't "wait" till you are ready, you never will be ready, and you may lose your resolve, and lose everything as well.<p>Ok, you are scared, that's honest, I won't beat ya up anymore, and you have taken it well. Is ok to be scared, normal to be scared, just don't think you have to be not scared to tell...and if you can't carry it off verbally, afraid you might blow it...take time and write exactly what you want to say and give it to him, then the ball is in his court, and you can stop obsessing over this, the truth will set you free, it always does.<p>Let me share something else, I say many things here on the boards about my feelings, where I am at....much of it distressing (and I get trashed regularly) to some, and my wife.... I do so knowing full well what it does to me (and how people view me) but I do so, cause to do any less would be dishonest, and violate radical honesty. But if I didn't do this, my w (and whoever is trying to interact with me) wouldn't really know who I am, or where I am coming from, I have gaurded my feelings most of my life, cause I didn't want to deal with being vulnerable (mostly cause when I did open up, the results were very hurtful).... I won't ever do that again...it is also how I am vulnerable to control, people close to me know full well how much I hate anger and emotional duress, that is used against me....not so much on purpose, but it becomes part of the dysfunctional dance, humans are good at manipulation, it is sorta normal, automatic in a way.... part of my work is breaking this cycle...it is hard, but I am making good progress, I let other people take care of their own feelings now, I still feel "obligated" to protect, but I am much better at fighting that behaviour.....the truth sets you free sel, it is it's own healing power, the truth is always the right way to go, even when it feels so so scarey, or is sure to cause much conflict.

autumn...Your husband doesn't need to have his nose rubbed into every little thing you may have done many years ago. You're gone the extra mile to learn that, and to make sure that he knows that he trust you now.<p>snl...Could you clarify? Does this mean you condone lieing if YOU think it unimportant someone know stuff that a reasonable person can assume might be considered important to their choices? So what secrets are you keeping? And will you accept people close to you decideing what you should, and should not know? What will upset you or not...are you a child? That is how we treat children, not adults....you let adults decide for themselves what their noses can or cannot take, least I will not accept anyone decideing what I should know or not..... I suspect you feel the same, which makes your advice here a little confusing.

autumn_haze,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> There's a strange and cultish vibe here, and you're too wise to have to go along with it.<hr></blockquote><p>
I beg your pardon? Where do you see anything cultish? <p> What you witness are real feelings from real people. Beliefs! From people who have been on one side of an affair or the other. <p> This is what you said on another thread of mine;<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My husband and I have been married, without
an affair on either side, for longer than some of the folks here have been alive!<hr></blockquote><p> I am sorry, but how do you know what you would believe given our situations? <p> I have been on this site for quite a while. I have had huge arguments with others(including SNL),I have gotten very angry at some of those debates(as have they), I have watched as OW invade this site and spew there garbage. <p> Through any and all of that I have rarely if ever gotten offended. I must say that your statement above is about the closest I hope I get to being offended. <p> You are more than welcome to your thoughts. If this is truly what you think of MB....well. Never mind. <p> Cultish??? Sigh.<p> Sel,<p> You are an adult. Obviously this will be a choice for you to make. You know the pros and cons of both ways. <p> No matter what you choose to do with your situation. Please do not view us, this site, or the information within as cultish. That is absurd.<p> jd

Selket, <p>I see that you have been around the MB site for a while (Nov 2000) and hope you are familar with what we primarily do here......discuss ways to encourage each other on building or rebuilding ourselves and our marriages. With that said, I would like to give you the BS view to your quandry......<p>About 1 year ago, I wrote a post where I felt as the BS that I was put in a dark room with no window and now light, not even a sliver of light. I carried in my arms, my son my precious son and all that I could carry. This room was so dark, we could not even see each other. My H put us in that room on d/d (even earlier but I did not realize it until d/d). Now this room had many obstacles from the wall, ceiling and on the floor. I had to keep moving in order to survive, I knew that. Yet I was in the dark and my child depended on my to give him guidance and protection. What I lacked was direction from my H. I would hear his voice and the laughter of the OW all around me. I did not know which way to turn but knew that if I stayed still, I would surely perish. <p>Does that sound scary? It was. That is exactly how I felt until my H came clean. He came clean in bits and pieces of which I am still learning. That is not fair. Over 2 1/2 years of my life and that of my child were robbed due to the A. That is a third of my child's life and 20% of my married life. <p>As long as the WS did not come clean, I was in the dark. Is that where you want your H to be? Would you want to be kept there? <p>Yes, some don't want to know and some do. That is something they need to individually decide. If you can put yourself in his position and say you would not want to know and feel that you can make your decision based on that, then so be it. When your H does that to you (doesn't have to be about an A), when he chooses to withhold info from you and then you find out via another source, just don't get mad. <p>Now to Autumn Haze, not sure what you meant by cultish. Is marriage a cult? If you are by any means anti-marriage, then yes, you had better run away before our 'cult' rubs off on you and converts you to being pro-marriage. <p>Sel, I hope you have a better head on your shoulders than AH. I trust that you do. <p>Please take care,
L.

erghhh... I had this post written and then it was eaten... hate that!<p>anyway... to make a longer post short...<p>If you're starting the MB stuff... like doing the EN questionnaire... then I would just take it one step at a time... down the line you get to the Personal History questionnaire...<p>At THAT point both people sign that they agree to REWARD honesty and not to PUNISH spouse if new information is revealed that is upsetting... perhaps this SHOULD be put onto the back burner until then...<p>I think that's what's holding you back? the fact that this 'new' info might set you guys back and get him upset???<p>Sometimes I think we PUSH stuff too FAST... one step at a time... baby steps... YOU are only just learning to deal with this yourself.... <p>Cali

jdmac, you quoted:<p>"This is what you said on another thread of mine;
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My husband and I have been married, without
an affair on either side, for longer than some of the folks here have been alive!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>I am sorry, but how do you know what you would believe given our situations?"<p>I don't claim to know what I would believe in your situations. I do, however, have personal experience in building a marriage that's worked pretty well for a very long time.<p>Based on that experience, I firmly believe that this site tends to be dogmatic, and pushes things that aren't necessarily true for everyone. Also, as someone wisely suggested on this thread, it often pushes too far, too fast. I think that's downright irresponsible.<p>As you seem resistant to light, and I don't care to generate heat, I shall refrain from posting here in the future.<p>Sel --<p>My best wishes to a strong, fine person!!

Autumn_H,<p> Perhaps you need to re-read my replies to Sel. <p> You said;<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>As you seem resistant to light, and I don't care to generate heat, I shall refrain from
posting here in the future.<hr></blockquote><p> I apologize for my backward thinking. But I fail to understand where you are coming from. Resistant to light? Well, I am resistant to the cult talk if that is what you mean.<p> Look, all I ask is that you not attempt to use such terms with those on this site. Perhaps you mis-spoke. Perhaps you were simply trying to use such implications in order to make your position stronger in regards to Selket. You should not be upset when someone steps up and says wait a minute here, what are you saying....<p> Feel free to stay if you want. Nobody is asking you to leave....But at the same time realize some of the people here have feelings as well. We think of this place with just as much passion as you feel for your old boards. <p> AH, I wish you well no matter where you lurk, post, or go.<p> jd

jd, you are wasting your time, don't ya know baiting behaviour when you see it by now? Now let's get back to plain old vehement (but passionately held) disagreement.

Right you are snl. <p> jd

"cultish vibe" ..... well, I don't claim to be an expert about cults .... but isn't one of the characteristics of a cult the ** absense of diverse opinions**? It seems to me, if there were cult-like vibes here, there would be no debating. Doesn't everyone within a cult agree in a carbon-copy manner? If this site has a general agreement about Harley principles (for the most part) that alone does not constitute a cult mentality any more than the congregation of any religious denomination .... where there is general consensus about religious dogma..... interpretation of the Harley principles is the meat of all this. I personally do not agree with some of the principles ... but, I am not sure I totally understand them, so I am reserving judgement.<p>Autumn, your reasoning here escapes me .... and, you did not give a reason for your opinion re a "cult vibe".<p>Pepper