Sel....... pls log on to MSN and let me know how it is going, if I helped before I would like to help again [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Pepper..... it seems that Autumn (sorry girl) tends to see smoking guns when opinions do not go her way, she was the same on the old board, if you recall.... [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Autumn, please do not take this the wrong way, but as an agnostic I find it hard to post on this board (ooops, the cat is out of the bag [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ), but the people here have their own way of expressing, and they are sincerely trying to help Sel in the way they know best...
anyway, sorry if I have offended, but I mean it Sel, get back on MSN or I will have to come down there and chase you [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .........love you girl.<p>Respectfully,

Sel,<p>This is suppose to be your thread. Please let us know how you are doing. <p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks,
L.

Hey All~<p>MelodyLane~ Thank you for sharing that with me. It did help.<p>Autumn~ I truly appreciate your advice! Thank you.<p>SNL~<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>the method of telling is important<hr></blockquote><p>I agree. That is where my.....uhm....stalling.....comes in. I'm not stalling ENTIRELY because I don't want face the music (although I will admit I'm not enthused) but mostly because I want to feel comfortable and confident in how I tell him. I don't want to stumble and say things that come out sounding like I'm making excuses......and I don't want to sound rehearsed. I haven't fully gotten my thoughts on together on how I'm going to tell. I don't think I'm wriggling on a hook buying time...because the fact of the matter is, I could go the rest of my life and my husband would probably never know. The reason I would tell him would NOT be because I am afraid someone else may tell, but because I feel that it is best for our marriage. I feel that there is a certain "peace" in all of this and that peace comes from many different aspects. Peace from him knowing, peace with being naked, peace for an opportunity of even more growth and bonding. There are even different levels of my own personal peace. One of those levels is HOW I tell my husband. I'm not at peace yet with HOW I am going to tell him. I am thinking and working my way to that peace. One step at a time. This is not something I want dragged out over a long period of time. BTW- As I said in my original post, it only just very recently occurred to me that this information may not have been inclusive in his forgiveness. It was like I had a BFO and something pinged inside my head. Now I see it as an issue......all of these year prior, I didn't.<p>Thank you for sharing part of your story with me, I had a feeling that your urgency stemmed from some sort of commiseration.<p>JD~ I don't view this site as "cultish". I do see why Autumn would think along such lines, though. I'm not saying I agree with her. But, hey, we are on the MB website where people do practice and preach the Harley principles so it would be silly for anyone to NOT expect most views or techniques to be along the same lines. There is a commonality here (as should be expected). It would be like going to a Dog board where people discuss raw feeding techniques and expect something different than raw feeding techniques. For the most part I expect to receive advice following the Harley principles.<p>Orchid~<p>I truly empathize with you and I can see where you are coming from. And I am utterly sorry for the pain that you and your daughter and your husband have been through. Yes, I am an ex-WS.....but please keep in mind that I also know what it is like to be betrayed by a person that one puts on a pedestal and loves and admires above all others. My father is a stinking, lying, cheating, denying, alcoholic dredge of poo-poo. This is something I have struggled with for at least 1 1/2 years. No, he wasn't my husband, but I feel like the innocence of our father/daughter relationship has been totally anihilated (sp). The cheating is where the similarity stops. And you know that saying "You don't know what it feels like till it happens to you"? Well, I know how much I have been completely shattered by my fathers numerous infidelities and the disrespect he has shown my mother and our family unit. I've seen my mothers pain and ached even more because I know that at one time I was just the type of person to inflict such pain on a fellow sister. I know how bad being betrayed hurts and I also know that the pain I feel is not of the same depth as a BS feels. For a very long time I have felt very much like you described...only it was concerning my Daddy.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> As long as the WS did not come clean, I was in the dark. Is that where you want your H to be? Would you want to be kept there? <hr></blockquote><p>No, I do not want my husband to be there nor would I want to be there. However, please consider the fact that there is a very likely possibility that my husband does not feel like he is in the dark about anything. He has not questioned me about one single detail since the beginning of our recovery nor has he given me any indication whatsoever that the issue is unresolved. I now know it is but that doesn't mean that he does. <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Yes, some don't want to know and some do. That is something they need to individually decide. If you can put yourself in his position and say you would not want to know and feel that you can make your decision based on that, then so be it. When your H does that to you (doesn't have to be about an A), when he chooses to withhold info from you and then you find out via another source, just don't get mad.<hr></blockquote><p>Okay, I'm really starting to get ripped here! Could y'all stop shoving this in my face? I have never once even seriously considered NOT telling him by my own judgement of whether he needs to know or not. From the beginning, I have always maintained that I want to do what is best for him and it will be his decision of what he deems to be best. I do not take up his position in this matter because it isn't mine to take. I have NEVER hinted or implied that I will never tell him and hope for the best. And, if you knew me better, you would know that I really do try to put myself in other people's shoes and consider their feelings in a given situation. Hypothecially speaking, on the VERY UNLIKELY off-chance that I decide to not tell him, I would NOT expect more from him than I expect of myself. So, if I was lying by omission, I would also expect him to lie by omission and would know I didn't have a leg to stand on. However, I don't want "lying by omission" to be a barrier in our marriage and I plan to remedy my part in that.<p>Orchid, my ire isn't aimed necessarily at you.....it just happens that you are the second or third person that has made this sort of "throw the hypocrisy in my face" statement to me. I hate hypocrites and I don't plan on keeping myself in a position to be one. Not making excuses here but honestly relaying my thoughts on the whole forgiveness ordeal. In my itty-bitty mind 7 years ago I felt like I had been forgiven the whole enchilada. Now I realize that may not be the case because my husband wasn't fully aware of just what he was forgiving. It truly didn't occur to me until very recently that my admission of being a sex-n-love addict wasn't quite the information my husband needed to give total forgiveness. If I didn't want to address the issue and blithely live my life in half-truths, this wouldn't even be a consideration for me nor would I have posted my original post.<p>I know that you are truly desiring to help me and my marriage. Thank you for that, Orchid. Now I have to figure out why I am so upset by your statement. Is it because I feel like my intentions are being misunderstood? I don't know.<p>Cali~<p>Yes, I am trying to take this one step at a time and NOT rush. Not because I enjoy wiggling on a hook (I hate this feeling) but because I want to get to a sort of peace in how I am going to present this information to him. I hate feeling like I am hiding something from him and I don't intend to let this go on. Thank you, Cali.<p>Lyndy~<p>I logged on...where were you????? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I will look for you tomorrow. Love ya!<p>
Thank you to all of you who responded.<p>sel<p>[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

Pepper & anyone else, re: the "cultish vibe" ..................<p>I kind of got a sense it here too, especially in regards to the advice that&#8217;s being given to Selket. <p>Yes, a small part of this sense of a &#8220;cultish vibe&#8221; may be generated by questions and concerns as to the diversity of opinions and the knowledge base that people are pulling from -- yes, granted this, is "MarriageBuilders," so in Rome, etc. <p>But I suspect that what Autumn was really picking up on (it's certainly what I picked up on) and commenting about was SnL's seemingly strong armed and conversion tactics, I mean, sheesh, talk about peer pressure! -- <p>"I gave you the solution, why won't you use it?" <p>(Uh, for the simple reason that the virtue of "radical honesty" without all of the other virtues isn't a virtue, it's a recipe for disaster.) <p>"I feel I am wrestling a bear here, I KNOW you understand me...I KNOW you know I am right, why are you fighting this, that is the real issue, has nothing to do with your H, this is all about YOU." <p>(I don't think many people know you're right or would agree that you are. SnL, your focus seems to me to be too narrow and way too personal, not objective. Will Selket be honest? Obviously she will be. But on her timeline, not yours, SnL. Your timeline SnL seems, well, radical [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . Selket is learning, and she seems to be really trying to get a better sense of what&#8217;s involved here, the various variables, and how to broach the subject the right way and tactfully, and not just blurt it out whenever, wherever. And .......... just as importantly, I know that I, for one, am not sold on the reliability or accuracy of your moral compass, SnL, and your sense of right and wrong. For example, your notion of commitment and integrity and keeping your word and promises seems to be off-kilter, as does you understanding of what love is and is not. But, heck, my compass could be majorly out of whack, too. So what do I know? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>"Tell him you have some lies yet untold, feel the issues are no longer important, and will not tell him if he has no need to know, but is his call....do it sel, do it now" <p>("Do it now"!? I think that&#8217;s what really did it for me. Uh, gee, OK, pass the kool-aid. . . .)<p>The best (meaning, to my mind the most even-keeled, even-minded, reasonable, responsible, principled) advice I've read on this thread was that of Cali -- "Sometimes I think we PUSH stuff too FAST... one step at a time... baby steps... YOU are only just learning to deal with this yourself.... " Ding, ding, ding. No peer pressure, no pressure to conform. No pressure for &#8220;group think.&#8221; Allowing and encouraging Selket to use and develop her own good commonsense, insight and wisdom.<p>Which is what Selket should be doing, in my opinion. This isn't a time for rash decisions and the potentially not so sightful misleading someone trying to better her sight. (I&#8217;m not calling anyone names or accusing anyone here of being blind, I&#8217;m simply trying to illustrate a point, a possibility.) This is a time for Selket to think and learn and find a place where she can trust her own judgment.<p>But as for what Autumn actually meant by "cultish vibe" and what is was that she was basing this on, Autumn can probably answer this best for herself. I can only comment about what I was tuning in to.<p>Peace,<p>Paruil<p>[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Paruil ]</p>

Dear Sel,<p>If I have offended you in anyway, please accept my apologies. They were said to give the viewpoint of a BS. <p>My H wanted to just forget it. But he and the OW kept it alive for a long time. At least in my eyes. He often told me if I stopped talking about it, it would have died. Well I did for a while and it started up again anyway. <p>So in reality, it did not stop until he choose to stop it. We are in that 'testing time' now. <p>My H gets upset if I don't tell him things yet he willingly withheld vital info from me. I could have contracted STD. I lost 2 babies during this time, missed-miscarriages according to the doctor. Lost children in my eyes. For me I needed to know. <p>What I believe I failed to remember in your case is that the A was years ago. Your thoughts seem like it was just yesterday. <p>Please forgive me for upsetting you. I am glad you are here. You are not the only WS who faced this delimea. Last year a WS posted nearly the same thing. <p>I hope you can find support and help here. <p>Again my apologies,
L.

paruil, thanks for your (indirect) analysis of my input to this thread (and sel). I don't mind people making observations (of me), as long as they explain themselves (and you did). I have been "called" a lot of things...some good, some bad...but never cultish lol.... guess I get to add that to my resume now. I would be a cults worst nightmare, follow no one but myself, and insist on detailed explanations for any position one takes, and cut em off at the knees if they deviate from logical thought (when I am so inclined...usually I just ignore knuckleheads). Re my approach here....2 parts, one the reasoning itself (which doesn't seem to have much disagreement, most even if they will act self-servingly [lie] at least give lip service to they should tell the truth, but most pretty much agree, honesty is the best policy). The second is my approach to sels particular lie. Principles are principles paruil, you either believe em or not, there is no middle ground. You might not like gravity, but if you jump off a building there are particular (based on height of building, nature of landing area, whether you have a parachute or not, etc.) predictable consequences of doing so. If I am on the ground in broken pieces, on deaths door, having jumped myself) looking up and seeing sel trying to jump off to avoid something, I am gonna tell her no, and be quite insistent about it....right? She then has a choice, do what she wants anyways, figuring maybe gravity does not apply, or applies differently, or will get lucky somehow...or she can pay attention to what I am telling her (and maybe others in the crowd yelling no, no, no also. That's all this is about really.<p>So paruil, I will ask you too....do you think lieing is an immutable principle re successful human bonding.....would you for ANY reason bind a spouse to you using a lie.....not telling something about you that you know might make a difference to them....? No matter what the circumstances?<p>The reason I leaned hard on sel is she can take it (it seems) if the intention is helpful (and it alwsays is with me, I don't displace much), I also pretty much post everything, every word, every nuance for a purpose. My sense is sel is a very strong-willed person, that is good, but it can also work against you when you rationalize....you think you have good reasons (for something), and you resist others saying maybe not. So I made the same arguments and the same tone sel would use on someone or herself, I know she knows what I am saying, so I hoped to give her the means to focus herself...that is the point of seeking help, so I gave it in ways she can understand. Some here (on MB) don't really want advice, they seek sympathy, validation, conversation, place to vent..etc. but don't really want to change themselves (despite what they say), and when challenged they get angry, or snippy, or defensive, or go off in a huff, or say they know what they are doing thank-you very much, and really won't defend/explain their positions...that's ok, to each our own poision. I could be wrong, but I sense sel really wanted to be challenged and she has responded as one who does want to be challenged....or I wouldn't have wasted my time on her....I would have just left my philosophical position here and moved on.... I could be wrong, I dunno, but that is how I read her, and why I have responded as I have (got down and wrestled with her). <p>It takes enormous energy to do this paruil, but when I see a need, and figure it worthwhile, I will try to go the distance..... sel has had a tough life, and I have a soft spot for kids who get off to a rough start, but try to overcome it.... IMO what is almost always needed is a tough approach, they have been programmed to protect themselves at all cost.... but you have to be sincere, cause they can tell. If you lighten up on em, go too easy, you give em enough rope to hang themselves, least that is my impression..... so saying yeah be good to tell someday, take your time, and heck maybe even doesn't really ever need to know if things are going right, it is in the past blah blah blah...are the worst possible responses to sel, she needs strong support to follow the principle IMO....or she (and you, and whoever) need to decide it is not a principle....but remember when you do that, you have just accepted it is ok for your spouse to lie to you, about anything, long as they think it is for the best not to tell...what is the best? Whatever they think best means, is their choice. <p>Ya see, delay is one of the more elegant rationalizations..... Of course I will tell, I am not a liar.....but just not now, when the time is right.....right now I am to fragile, he is too fragile, the marriage is too fragile....I don't feel good, he is sick, the kids don't need mom and dad having more stress, the moon isn't right, maybe tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow..... But ya see, the principle does not say when you get around to it, you tell NOW, the instant you realize you are a liar. Obviously those who think lieing is not a principle, craft all sorts of excuses why they don't need to tell, so the principle is wasted on them, and they just live the crippled relationship they have, with the unsuspecting spouse who is married to them....sort of like stealing someones soul....for their own good of course...funny how even the devil is not allowed to do that without your permission, but humans do it often with nary a thought.<p>This is a communication, so how one tells is important, and it is ok to take a SHORT amount of time to collect your thoughts, and contemplate how you plan to reveal this truth....but should not take very long at all, a few days, weeks at most..... The primary reason people who "want" to tell...don't...is fear....they fear the consequences....so they try to manipulate the time line....they do so by trying to improve the relationship first.... that is so evil. You try to bind the person to you SO they will want you enough to forgive you easier, and make it harder for them to leave you...that is what it boils down too when you drill down through all the rationalizations....even the infamous I don't want to hurt them more.....is really about you, you do not want to damage the relationship, and figure that is best for spouse too, but it is not your right to decide that....unless you accept someone decideing for you also, and we have relationships like that...they are parent/child relationships.<p>So the deal is, sel is rationalizing, looking for validation to delay, there is none (except in the narrow sense of how to do it), most honest people do not want their rationalizations validated, they want to be called on em, so I did, in ways sel could not ignore, or explain away, her choices are clear, and stark now, and she knows what they are, she knows any more delays are self-serving and about her, and her inability to do the right thing, that disturbs her, as it should...and why I think there is hope for her.

Paruil, thanks for understanding!<p>You are right on target as to what was bothering me.<p>I certainly didn't mean to imply that MB went in for evil rituals, mind control, poisonous purple drinks, etc.<p>However, I don't think that MB "doctrines" should be followed "religiously" to the point that all other considerations are ignored. I would consider that kind of behavior to be "cultish."<p>When I thought I saw that happening, at the expense of a person whom I've admired for some time, I reacted.<p>Thanks again, Paruil!<p>And continued best wishes to you, Sel; you're one of the most principled people I know!

Hello All!<p>Sorry I haven't responded earlier......I'm trying to give up the smokes! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I'm doing really well, down to 1/4 of what I normally smoke. My goal is that by the end of this week to join the league of Non-Smokers. I smoke alot when I'm on the computer so I've had to cut my puter time, plus I'm having to keep myself busy.<p>Josephthedreamer, if you are reading this, I haven't forgotten about you...I promise! I will be in and out tomorrow but I promise I will email you tomorrow.<p>Okay, now on to the topic at hand......<p>Orchid~<p>No worries, Mate! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I totally understand why you posted what you did.....I was frustrated because because I have repeatedly said that I do not intend to make the decision for my husband and I felt like too many people were reading their own personal experiences into my situation without actually reading what I had posted. It's okay, O, no need for apologies. My anger was mine and I doubt very seriously you were trying to upset me. <p>I know very well the "just let it die" mentality because that is the mentality that I had years ago. Isn't that typical of a WS? AARGGHH! I'm sorry you are having to go through all of this stuff with your Hubby and his OW. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Orchid, I am also very very sorry about your lost babies. We have this in common. I have had numerous miscarriages (it sounds very much like your situation....missed and late periods only to have the mother of all periods weeks and weeks late, not really knowing they were miscarriages?) and the one that I was aware of was completely devistating. The loss is terrible. I actually knew I was pregnant WHILE I was pregnant and I new I was losing the baby WHILE I was losing the baby. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] {{{{ORCHID}}}}} You are in my thoughts and prayers.<p>O, there is nothing to forgive and don't give it another thought.....you were helping me and supporting me and for that I thank you!!!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] AND, I hope that one day I'll be able to return the favor.<p>P.S. I do get upset when my husband witholds information from me.....again, I understand completely where you are coming from.<p>Paruil~<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Will Selket be honest? Obviously she will be. But on her timeline, not yours, SnL. Selket is learning, and she seems to be really trying to get a better sense of what&#8217;s involved here, the various variables, and how to broach the subject the right way and tactfully, and not just blurt it out whenever, wherever. <hr></blockquote><p>That's it, Par, in a nutshell. I've already passed the decision process of telling, now I'm working on HOW to tell and WHEN to tell.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>This is a time for Selket to think and learn and find a place where she can trust her own judgment. <hr></blockquote><p>Thank you, Par, I have made so many sloppy judgements and wrong decisions and I want to have the confidence and security of KNOWING that I am approaching this in the right way. It's not that I think if I am happy in the way I tell that everything will be hunky-dory....I want to be able to maintain some sort of dignity through all of this......and if things don't work out, then I know I handled it in a dignified manner. IF there can be a dignified way in telling someone something like this.....somehow, I think there is.<p>SNL~ <p>Honestly, I think you go to extremes. You remind me of my mother [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ! LOL! All or nothing, baby! If you were going to parachute would you not take classes, check to make sure your parachute is packed correctly, figure out the height, check the weather, scout a location, wear goggles, check and recheck, etc??? That's what I'm doing at this point. I think you are painting my techniques as rationalizations.......but, SNL, I'm past rationalization at this point. I'm past the "if I don't tell" point. I know what I need to do and I'm going to do it. I know you were pushing me because you really do care about me, I know this! <p>And, you gauged me almost 100% on the mark. I can TOTALLY understand everything you are saying (although I don't agree with everything you say)....and SNL, I know just about every rationalization technique known to man. I've used 'em before. I know what I'm up against. I'm not buying time for the inevitable. You see it that way, I don't.<p>CAUTION! YOU HAVE JUST ENTERED A NO SPIN ZONE!
(I'm thinking you may be a Bill O'Rielly fan, yes?)<p>Just out of curiosity, I noticed that you resonded to Par regarding my rationalizations and why you gave the advice you did...(again, I appreciate it)....but, I'm wondering, why you didn't address this.....<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And .......... just as importantly, I know that I, for one, am not sold on the reliability or accuracy of your moral compass, SnL, and your sense of right and wrong. For example, your notion of commitment and integrity and keeping your word and promises seems to be off-kilter, as does you understanding of what love is and is not. <hr></blockquote><p>???????????????????<p>So, what say you?<p>Autumn~<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>However, I don't think that MB "doctrines" should be followed "religiously" to the point that all other considerations are ignored. <hr></blockquote><p>I think this is the key here......to the point that all other considerations are ignored.<p>A, as for the rest of your post to me, I am utterly overwhelmed to the point that I can't accurately express my thanks.....so I will just say.....Thank you.<p>sel

actually I am an ex-army paratrooper, and civilian sky-diver...and I was VERY careful [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Ok, no problem, you are gonna tell, are working on how best to do it, and going to do so shortly (I presume, delaying being the last resort rationalization)....just wasn't sure, and didn't want you slipping away ya know.<p>sel asked about...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And .......... just as importantly, I know that I, for one, am not sold on the reliability or accuracy of your moral compass, SnL, and your sense of right and wrong. For example, your notion of commitment and integrity and keeping your word and promises seems to be off-kilter, as does you understanding of what love is and is not. <p>snl..Well it wasn't germane to your post (my moral compass being irrelevant)...and if anyone really wants to dig into me, I have over 1600 posts on MB hundreds of them dealing with issues one could describe as moral compass, what is love etc.... If one wants to read them use the search engine and you will know more than you probably care too about snl's positions. But I will give a brief response....<p>There is nothing in this inquiry above of substance, it is plain vanilla character assasination....vague disrespectful judgements, and not a shred of supporting documentation....For the record, I am the most honest person I know, always have been.... I give it my all when dealing with someone, my feelings, my thoughts, unvarnished, and definitely not PC etc. The only time I have outright lied was concealing the affair from my w...even then I attempted to involve her in the developing on-line relationship. I lied deliberately, and primarily cause I decided it was none of her business (I was willing to divorce her, so that removed any rights she had to know my business).... When I made myself available for efforts at reconcilliation I recognized I could not conceal relevant facts....so I told the truth...although I did dwaddle in order to get it right (as mentioned earlier).<p>As for my notion of right and wrong, they are pretty much fundamental Christian, one should not mistake my disagreements over the Biblical interpretations of marriage/divorce/oneflesh as having no morality. I have been married 24 years, 23 faithful/dutiful as the day is long, not even wandered in my thoughts. However I am a pragmatic realist re right and wrong, that confuses people sometime, but I see no inconsistentcies with Christian morality (although that discussion has not come up much here).<p>As for what love is....I have that nailed now, it was a struggle, is a slippery character, but once you unravel all the compnents, run it through a human psychology filter, it is actually not that complicated. What is amazing is how many people that use love very irresponsibly, and with no notion of what it is.....it is NOT dependency, one-sided, or about any kind of anger/abuse....Nor does it exist unless it is expressed in an egalitarian atmosphere between two psychologically healthy individuals who BOTH are on the same wavelength (fit)..... it is not very common...what is common is various flavors of contractural/dutiful marriages which the participants describe as love..... I have also discovered it is pointless to argue with people over the definition of love, people call everything under the sun love.....some people love so much they murder their spouse, figure that one out. Love is a meaningless word without a discernible, quantifiable definition.....and when you make one, you realize quickly most people are not in-love.

For Selket, Autumn & SnL<p>
Selket,<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ! Strength & Courage as D0F/DWW says. Stay the course. You know that I admire you too for your struggle (in case I haven't told you that enough!!)<p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<p>Autumn, <p>You are welcome [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<p>SnL, <p>You still didn&#8217;t address the point. The point is you took vows, you made a promise, you committed yourself to another and did so irrespective of conditions, correct? If not, what did you sign your name to all those years ago? What did you say your &#8220;I do&#8217;s&#8221; to? What were your vows? What were you committing yourself to?<p>Aside from your appalling lack of humility &#8211; &#8220;As for what love is....I have that nailed now&#8221; (Move over, God) &#8211; your definition of love is seriously lacking. (Are you open to that possibility? If so, what would that openness look like? And how could any of us here recognize that openness?) As are your definitions of integrity, honor, maturity, right and wrong. (Likewise, are you open to those possibilities as well? And if so, what would that openness look like? And how could any of us here recognize that openness?) <p>You really did nothing in your last post to address the gist of what was asked of you.<p>Try again if you care to. The gist of what is being asked of you is what basis is there for making any promises to another when you are or think you are in love? <p>According to your version of love, what does your commitment to another involve? <p>What would your vows read like, SnL, were you to write and recite them now? <p>How aconditional (meaning valid across conditions and irrespective of circumstance) would your promise/commitment be?

Where you to tell another that you love her or him, what exactly would that mean to another? <p>Are you guaranteeing the other person anything (sickness, old age, poverty, or until your fine feelings shift or wane)? <p>What precisely are you committing yourself to?<p>Take care all,<p>Paruil

Hiya Sel,<p>I just read your response and thanks for the encouragement. I am sorry you had to suffer through those losses as well. <p>Just knowing you are ok and that I have not stumbled you out of MB is good enough 'payback' (in a good way) for me [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>Cyber {{{hug}}}<p>Take care and continue to grow in love,
L.

SNL~<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>and if anyone really wants to dig into me, I have over 1600 posts on MB hundreds of them dealing with issues one could describe as moral compass, what is love etc.<hr></blockquote><p>Come on, first we are told to read all the Harley information on this website (which is ALOT) and many of us have done just that, then when specific questions are asked of you, you suggest that we peruse your 1,600 posts???? Side-stepping maybe? Actually, us being newbies, I understand what a nusance it can be having to reiterate things, but many times it's easier to have things broken down point blank. Heck, how would you have responded if I had said that there were TONS of archives on our (old/other) board for you to read to get a better picture of us instead of us replying directly to you?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>There is nothing in this inquiry above of substance, it is plain vanilla character assasination....vague disrespectful judgements, and not a shred of supporting documentation....<hr></blockquote> <p>Nothing of substance? Oh, yes there is!!!! Plain vanilla character assasination? Nope, no it isn't. Vague disrespectful judgements? No they aren't. Anymore than your posts to me and about me were vague disrespectful judgements. Not a shred of supporting documentation? Okay, that's why she asked those questions of you.......to decipher your own words and thoughts (and then you mentioned us reading your 1,600 posts).<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>For the record, I am the most honest person I know, always have been <hr></blockquote><p>I commend you on your honesty....BUT...you keep looping back to honesty. You weren't asked about honesty. You were asked about the accuracy of your moral compass, your sense of right and wrong, your notion of commitment and integrity and keeping your word and promises, and your understanding of what love is and is not.....nothing in there about honesty, per se.<p>I really liked what Par wrote here........<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>(Uh, for the simple reason that the virtue of "radical honesty" without all of the other virtues isn't a virtue, it's a recipe for disaster.)<hr></blockquote><p>I'm not saying radical honesty is wrong, I am saying (and I think what Par is saying) is that Radical Honesty isn't the whole of the relationship or the situation. It seems as if you are saying, "I've done my part. I've been honest." When there is so much more to marriage and relationships than just honesty (and love), even if it is part (or even all) of the foundation. What about the next steps, the steps after honesty???? I think that is what I was trying to get at when I asked you about "other MB principles" (although I may have been wrong to label them as exclusive MB Principles, instead of just Principles). <p>Maybe Par's questions weren't germane to my post, but that's okay, I'm pretty open.<p>BTW- are you an O'Rielly fan? <p>sel<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

yeah, I like o'reilly, but he (like dr phil. and probably snl. and others of similar ilk) seems a leeetttttllle bit pompous at times....but he does seem sincere, and he lets the truth speak for itself, that draws me like a moth to flame.<p>I wasn't trying to be rude about the post things, and you actually summed it up pretty good...if one is going to um.... engage in specific positions it probably would be useful to collect these thoughts in a organized fashion, in a central location for better communication...actually I will probably write a book for people like me (following in JD footsetps), we have very little useful support. Yep you hit the nail on the head, is frustrating...cause I wanna converse, I just can't keep doing it over and over...after the first dozen times it is just too much...sorry.<p>If nothing else benefits me from this time in life, I have recieved one gift..... I know what my greatest need is....the first 5 or so are Honesty and openess..... I need that (and need to be able to express myself thusly) as much as I need food and water (well allmost anyways)....<p>I stand by the post though you referenced, it was as I said, no substance....in contrast to what I posted to you I was specific and said why, I also specifically referred to your behaviours so you knew where I was coming from.<p>as for moral compass (whatever that is) I will comment on it if someone defines it first, I have no idea what that means, or why I apparently have a broken one.

SNL~<p>Okay.

SnL, you wrote:<p>"as for moral compass (whatever that is) I will comment on it if someone defines it first, I have no idea what that means, or why I apparently have a broken one."<p>SnL, did you read my last post to you on this thread? (it's about 5 posts back; I think it's the last post on page 2 of this thread) All of the questions I asked of you there are all questions relating to your moral compass, your sense of right and wrong (there's your definition, by the way [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ! Moral compass -- moral sense of direction -- ability to discern right from wrong. It seems pretty self-explanatory.)<p>Will you be working up a response to any or all of the questions that I asked. Will we be having a discussion?<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Paruil ]</p>

This one? Indeed I missed it, let me take a shot at it this evening hopefully. Thanks for referencing it again and not just assuming I am a stuffish boor or something [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
For Selket, Autumn & SnL<p>Selket,<p> ! Strength & Courage as D0F/DWW says. Stay the course. You know that I admire you too for your struggle (in case I haven't told you that enough!!)<p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<p>Autumn, <p>You are welcome <p>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<p>SnL, <p>You still didn’t address the point. The point is you took vows, you made a promise, you committed yourself to another and did so irrespective of conditions, correct? If not, what did you sign your name to all those years ago? What did you say your “I do’s” to? What were your vows? What were you committing yourself to?<p>Aside from your appalling lack of humility – “As for what love is....I have that nailed now” (Move over, God) – your definition of love is seriously lacking. (Are you open to that possibility? If so, what would that openness look like? And how could any of us here recognize that openness?) As are your definitions of integrity, honor, maturity, right and wrong. (Likewise, are you open to those possibilities as well? And if so, what would that openness look like? And how could any of us here recognize that openness?) <p>You really did nothing in your last post to address the gist of what was asked of you.<p>Try again if you care to. The gist of what is being asked of you is what basis is there for making any promises to another when you are or think you are in love? <p>According to your version of love, what does your commitment to another involve? <p>What would your vows read like, SnL, were you to write and recite them now? <p>How aconditional (meaning valid across conditions and irrespective of circumstance) would your promise/commitment be?<p>Where you to tell another that you love her or him, what exactly would that mean to another? <p>Are you guaranteeing the other person anything (sickness, old age, poverty, or until your fine feelings shift or wane)? <p>What precisely are you committing yourself to?

That's the one I was referring to, SnL. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]