Hi, I have not been here for quite some time as I took away alot of the information that I absorbed on this website and went and did alot of work.<p>A quick run down of what has happened in my life, was that I had an A. I went over seas and met an incredible beautiful man. Lots of talking, lots of fun.. and then I slept with him. The connection has been overwhelming. I told my H. Yes, he was hurt. I have told him that I want to share my love with him.... I do not want to end our marriage. I want to love him for the rest of my life.... in that deeper sensual connection that I had in the A. Over the last 7 months I have done everything but get down on my knees for my H to move back home, but he says that he will not come back home until his needs are met. We have discovered that we simply "love" different. My yearning comes from communication, friendship...and then when I have that, the love pours..... and that is what I had overseas, not in my marriage. My H loves by touch. He says affection, sex, cuddling, kissing is the only way that he knows how to express love and see love and if it does not come back in those ways, then there is no love. So, even though I ask him how his day was, bake him his favourite cookies, care for our family, want to go on scenic drives with the family, he says that I am not meeting any of his needs (well he says that I do meet 10% of his needs). Don't get me wrong... I do love him, I do cuddle him..... but it is not my initial reaction when he walks in the door. My connection to him is through his mind... knowing who he is. Learning him.... and to me that comes from talking, spending time together (not in bed). Well, my H went to see his family this weekend and called me and told me that he "purchased" a condom in the bar... and when he was at a party later on, a woman offered to give him a ride home. Then she invited him into her home for a drink. He grew tired, and she offered him her bed. One thing led to another, and it happened. He does not know her last name, or anything about her. And when I compare the 2 affairs, I can only see that we got what we needed out of it.... I got talking, telling stories about our lives... an inner connection..... and he got sex. I do not want to lessen what I have done in anyway, but I am having a hard time with what my H did. He went to bed with someone he did not know, and will never see again. No phone numbers were exchanged. And when he told me about the A, I cried, but not for me, and not for him, but for this W that he took to bed to meet his needs. I wonder how she feels. Used? And is that what I am? My H has told me that he never cared about how I was feeling or not feeling when we were together. He simply said that he wanted it, and he would get it from me anyway he could. My H told me that his A "was just sex; you fell in love with another man." And I say inside myself scared to say this to him, "Well, I love, you f***". When he first told me, he said it with no remorse in his voice... said that he thought that if he did the same thing, it would help him forgive what I had done. The next day, he called and said that he is sick to his stomach.. and he knows that he did the wrong thing. He even said that he wanted to cut his trip short and come home. I am in this M with all my heart and soul right now. The thought of even looking at him right now, makes me want to get sick. And it is not because of what he did.... it is because of how he treated that lady.
What can I do do help him? I don't want to be selfish. I do not want to push him away when he comes home, but I am really lost as to how I should be reacting to this. In my heart, he did not do what I did. He did worse.

BMWM,<p>Nice try but it won't fly. THe OW knew what she wanted and she got it. So don't feel sorry for the OW. I am sorry to hear that your H did this to your marriage. However, I noted reading your post that although you knew his needs and how he wanted you to show love, that you didn't really do it. You only did what you wanted which is what you did with your affair.<p>Since you are the one posting you get the advice. My advice is to stop the games with your H. You know why he was feeling the way he was. You wouldn't meet his needs and he felt since you had the A, that you should meet them. You insisted that he recieve conversation when you knew that he needed something else.<p>My bet is that he didn't meet your needs either. A power struggle was going on. WELL, YOU LOST. and SO DID HE.<p>My question to you is what are you going to do? Are you really going to try this time? Are you going to do the "feel sorry for the OW", how could he be so mean thing? Or are you going to admit that you severely damaged your marriage with your A, and then decided to repair it on your terms.<p>None of those approaches are going to work. You both have work to do, but don't do the "He did worse" nonsense. I don't buy it, and neither will he.<p>If you want to buy it and end the marriage well this is your life we are talking about.<p>I realize this post sounds strong, but you are trying to shift guilt, and I cannot stand that as you can tell. <p>BMWM, it is time for some honesty, and the first person you need to be honest with is your self.<p>I do hope someone posts something that can help, my main advice is some honesty and a realistic look at what you want and what you are willing to do to acheive it. I do hope it is your marriage.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JUST LEARNING has hit it DEAD ON!

Where's the desire to make the marriage work? Meeting emotional needs is a selfless act, not a selfish act. You can't sit around waiting on the other person to meet your needs first. You might be surprised at how he reacts if you'll begin fulfilling his emotional need for good sex. As long as you refuse to do this it will be a huge LB for your marriage and he will be angry at you, resent you etc. This will be manifested in how he acts. It is hard to desire to communicate with someone you are angry at. When you are angry at someone, you don't really care to get to know them better, to love them, to appreciate them etc. You should be able to understand this because you are probably withholding sexual fulfillment from him because you are angry at him for not fulfilling your emotional needs. Someone has to make the first move, be the adult and begin tearing down the walls of anger that you have both built. Best of Luck. You CAN do it!

Just Learning,
First of all I would would like to thank you for your strong reply. I need that and I need more. On of my issues that I have been packing around for years, is that I grew up in a family that did not show love by touching. And guess what? He grew up with lots of touching. But, the other night, I realizes "what difference does it make if it is talking or love making?" IT IS ALL LOVE. His way or my way. I wrote a long letter telling him that I want to love him the way he loves... what can I lose? I can only gain love, right? After he told me about what he had done, I did not LB. I thanked him for telling me and told him that I would not verbally beat him for his actions. I told him that I understood. And I truly do. I told him that I had wrote a letter and asked to read it to him. I wanted to read it to him then, opposed to him thinking that it was wrote after he did what he did.... in an attempt to win him over for his actions..... so I read it to him... and he was so happy. He told me that if what I said in the letter was true, that he can see moving home right away. And that is what I want. I have so much love to show him. But that is where I am lost and that is where I need help. My instinct is not to do that... and I need all the tips on how to re-program my gifts of love... change it from being a clean house to .... a house filled with love, mainly his heart. And the other thing that I am hung up on is my H sleeping with someone he didn't know. What positive affirmation can I say to myself to rid that thought? I want it gone. I want him to come home from the holiday that he is on and see that I can DO THIS. <p>Can you please respond to my H the way you responded to me regarding what I posted. He will read it. He welcomes this website and has said that it helps him alot.

BMWM,<p>You sound a lot like my W and I sound a lot like your H, in terms of ENs.<p>We played the same game you two are playing for a long time (been married 21 years). I would try to do for her what I liked (physical affection) and she would do the stuff she liked (conversation). We were both frustrated *all* the time. <p>As JL pointed out, you must become an expert at meeting you H's needs the way he likes!<p>BUT, your H must become an expert at meeting YOUR needs, the way you like them. If you BOTH don't do this, the marriage is not going to work very well. From personal experience *I* don't need conversation, or cards and flowers to feel that I'm loved. My W does!!!!! I don't find it difficult, or unpleasant, to listen and talk to her. It's also not difficult to remember to get cards or flowers once in a while (and add some mushy stuff to the card [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) <p>This really is NOT painful. And, the way she lights up when I do these things is more than worth it. <p>We still mess up occasionally and revert back to our "withholding" mode. But, we don't go on like that for months the way we used to.<p>You see, my W met someone on the internet who was able to fulfill her top 3 ENs without EVER meeting her in person. I learned a lot from that lesson and it's not one I want to repeat.<p>I hope you find some of this useful.<p>Jeffers

BMWM,<p>I took the liberty of reading your previous posts and it was very informative. It seems that your H has gotten his act together with regard to the pot and the alcohol. If he is back sliding it must stop. <p>It also seems that you are mad or bothered about things that happened in the first 1.5 years of your relationship with him, regarding his ex???. I would like to remind you that at that period you two were not married and had not taken any vows. So, while it hurt you, and it explained the relationship, it does not define the marriage.<p>Then you said somethings that really struck me. You said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>She said that having sex with your "business partner" would only confuse matters.
Especially when things were are not going good; you get all confused with what you are feeling. You know what the business needs but you do not want to hurt the other partner?? Well, I have thought about this. Not sure if I agree.<hr></blockquote><p>Quite frankly your Mother's vision of marriage as a business and the need to keep sex OUT of the "business" so as not to confuse it is: sick. I appreciate that this is a bit strong, but marriage is about sex. Interestingly, sex is the ONLY need that is to be met EXCLUSIVELY within the marriage. It is that sacred.<p>Now I realize that many women will argue about this, but I will simply refer them to your own comments about your H's one night stand with a woman whose name he doesn't know. Why should that bother you, if "sex only confuses the business partners"? It is crucial and it is the most intimate thing that a couple can share.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have asked this question because I read on another reply about avoiding sex. The scenario was a little different, but in the same breath, my H (the BS) has told me many times over the 8.5 years, that he would consider leaving me due to the lack of it. I would never leave him because of that. I tell him, "If you were in an accident and
paralyzed..(knock on wood) and unable to perform, I would still be here". I have always considered the amount/frequency my "fault" because of his statement. I am the only one who has ever said no. I say to myself..."How come you do not want to? You love him; he is your husband; what is the hold-up?" <hr></blockquote><p>The difference is that you are "withholding" sex. It is a far different thing to have a deep and chemically driven need (sex) and have the only person on the planet that is allowed to meet it withhold it, because they don't feel it is "important", than it is for you or he to be physically unable to meet this need because of an accident. The analogy doesn't work BMWM.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I did not want to make love to someone who is stoned or drunk. And he knows this.<hr></blockquote><p>This is a reasonable approach and probably the only reasonable one you have made regarding sex in the marriage. It is also reasonable that you ask him to stop using drugs and alcohol. It is not for the kids to be around and it is not good for him. Certainly, it isn't good for your love life.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> For me, I have always considered sex to be an "added bonus" for a relationship. I am not with my husband because of the sex. I am with with him because of the companionship, having him home for home for dinner as a family makes me happy, sharing a bucket of popcorn and a movie is great. I have never used "sex" as an indicator of how well our marriage is, I put weight on conversation, friendship, how he uses his heart.<hr></blockquote><p>For men sex is a very interesting thing. If we want it, it doesn't mean deep love because of our chemical make up. If we don't want it means there is something seriously wrong. You would do well to use sex as an indicator, just as he would do well to understand that if you are not talking to him, he is in trouble. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Friendship is important to a marriage, but it is not unique to a marriage. Therefore, while it is important, it is not an indicator of the depth of the marriage. Again, its absence is crucial but its presence does not indicate a healthy marriage.<p>So we come to meeting needs and your Affair. THe interesting thing about your affair was that it was a PA. Yet, you claim it was the conversation, the ambiance (sp), the emotional connection that really drove it. Yet, there was sex. Why????<p>I know why. It was important to him and to you. Your H knows this. Further, having gone to Europe as a young man (18-21) and single, I KNOW that it can be a very romantic place. Also having done a lot of moving and traveling, I KNOW that meeting a new very attractive woman can be a very very romantic thing. A marriage, two children, and issues cannot compete. Your H knows this.<p>Now he has gone and done it. He has broken his vows to you, as you did to him. His defense was that he was deprived of your love (sex) for a long time, and you were/are in love with OM. It doesn't defend what he did, but it explains it.<p>You asked a few more questions <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I have so much love to show him. But that is where I am lost and that is where I need help. My instinct is not to do that... and I need all the tips on how to re-program my gifts of love... change it from being a clean house to .... a house filled with love, mainly his heart.<hr></blockquote><p>BMWM, would you consider buying your H a beautiful ball gown for his b-day? Would you consider buying him perfume and makeup? I doubt it. But, you are essentially asking that question. You know he recieves loves best via sex. You know or you will if you keep reading here that one of his top needs is sex. Yet, you want to give him something else. Interestingly, you stated earlier that you realized that showing him love via converstation isn't much different than showing him love via sex. BUT IT IS DIFFERENT. In one case you are meeting his needs and in the other case you are meeting YOUR needs.<p>I cannot tell you how many women post here saying that all their H's want is sex. But, they (the W's) want conversation. THe advice to the H's is "start talking" [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And the other thing that I am hung up on is my H sleeping with someone he didn't know. What positive affirmation can I say to myself to rid that thought? I want it gone. <hr></blockquote><p>Interesting question, most here would be delighted that it was ONLY sex, and involved no love whatsoever. There will be no late night phone calls, no flowers showing up, no clothes being sent by the OW. It never started so it is over.<p>THis is to be differeniated by your A. You are still emotionally attached to OM. You still think about him and compare your H to him. You received gifts from him that you "could not throw away." You still dream of the 7 days as the way a marriage is supposed to be. Sorry, I laugh at that one. Having had more than a few romances in Europe and other places in the world, they are NOT like marriages. They are escapism, great fun, truely romantic, and purely fiction. Real life is not that way. Real life is not bad, but it does have stress, worries, failures, pressure. THose romances don't. Not even money is a worry.<p>So I don't know how to tell you to handle your H's affair, but I do think the fact that it didn't involve love and involved simply a moment of weakness, should be of some comfort. He failed and he knows it. No excuses, but there seem to be a few reasons.<p>BMWM, I think you have a very strange notion of love and marriage. It would seem from what you have posted that it was learned, as we alllearned, from your parents. Your H has issues to address, his affair, the pot, the alcohol, but your issue is clear. You need to stop seeing a marriage as a romance novel with Fabio sweeping you off your feet with witty conversation, romantic dinners, meaningful looks, and the well timed heavy breathing. It doesn't often work that way, especially with two kids. Which are not even his.<p>I have written more than I should. I hope in all of this mess you find something useful and helpful to you.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

ok, lots of good info, and I won't confuse the thread with a bunch of stuff, but I am curious about something....what if she (or anyone) doesn't want to meet her H need that way? Maybe she would prefer a man who is more moved by the same things she is, conversation, learning about each other, and sex is the icing on the cake to that connection...would that be wrong?<p>also I have a different view of 2nd affairs, he should have known better, it was a deliberate act of aggression, and I think speaks much about who he is (at least in this marriage)...I would be very reluctant to try and rebuild with him, just let him go and start over.

snl,<p>The first affair was a deliberate act of aggression as well. I mean it is sort of rediculous to claim you didn't know an affair wouldn't hurt someone in this age of instant media and knowledge.<p>As for her, not needing to work on the marriage and finding a better man, that is and always has been her choice. Apparently she chose to work on the marriage. If she doesn't nothing any of us can offer makes any difference.<p>Take care,<p>JL<p>[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

Just Learning,
Are you sure that you are just learning? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] The issues that you have talked about regarding my previous posts have changed. Like I said at the beginning of this new post, I have not been here for some time. So, to bring you up to speed... the gifts are gone and the conversation/e-mailing has stopped. That was soley my choice because at the beginning, when I wanted to work on my marriage but continued to talk with OM, it made me feel like s*** and I knew it was not right. You touched a little bit about what my mom had said to me. The intent of her statement came to me after the split was already done. She gave this advise "from a point of me living alone", and wanting me to work out all the problems before diving back into the marriage with the same problems. Needless to say, I did not know if I agreed with her, and now that you have stated your opinion, I can clearly see how warped that was. When I talked about hints/tips on how to re-program a person to "give" what the partner needs, I will give you an example. On Saturday mornings, I would get out of bed and go put coffee on, then a load of laundry, grab the paper out of the front door, and start making a nice breakfast... for my H and the kids. Because we both work ful time, a hot breakfast all together was great. But you know what? When I was cooking those eggs, I could hear my H calling me to come back into the bedroom to cuddle... well what I just realized two days ago (call me slow) was that he could have cared less about the eggs and the coffee. He wanted me. We never had the opportunity to lie in bed all week... and now was our chance. And I let it go by because I was being super mom. The biggest awakening throughout this split up is what I have contirbuted to the state of the marriage.... and I am not happy with alot of things that I have found. I come here for help, assistance, and guidance... and give little advice. Like all affairs, either party can chose to walk away and start a new life. I don't want to. I have been soul searching and trying to uncover what my feelings are... and the more that I listen to my gut,(instead of friends) the more progress I make with my H. One exception to what I just said... I do listen to what is said here. And I chose to use the advice that makes most sense to me. I know I have a lot of work to do right now. Some days I feel like I am trying to learn Calculus without the text book. I do need help....and I thank all of you for helping me.

Ah Calculus with a test book. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>We have something to talk about BMWM. I was using your old posts to illustrate a few points to you. In regard to your original question about your H and his affair as well as why you two are separated.<p>You touched on it with your comment about breakfast. It is a matter of perspective and what you feel is the most important. The key thing that Harley and some others point out, and something I had to learn in my marriage, is that we may try to be good spouses, but we often miss the mark with regard to the our spouses needs.<p>We also bring with us baggage about what a good marriage is. Hence the comment about your Mothers suggestion and yours about sex being a nice addition to a marriage. I am not faulting you for thinking that, you learned it somewhere. But, it didn't work, that was/is the point.<p>Yeah, for us guys women beat eggs anytime, especially a woman that we love and want to be with. Crude but true. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As for the calculus, just remember it is simply a more elaborate way of doing addition and subtraction. Sounds complex, can be made to be complex, but the underlying idea is very simple.<p>Just like this marriage stuff, right???? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>God Bless,<p>JL

Just Learning,
One thing that I thought of after posting my last reply was that about withholding sex, and you said that one of the only reasonable statements I had made (not quoting you) was that I did not want sex with someone who was drunk or sober. Up unitl I had the A, my H was stoned on an average of 6 nights a week. It was very rare that he did not use drugs everyday. It ranged from starting at 6:30 AM in the morning to ending at bedtime. I did express my feelings to him about not wanting to make love to someone who was stoned... but what I did not understand at the time was that he was dealing with his own demons of being addicted. He has stopped now, and since we have been apart, we have had more sex than ever.... (I didn't listen to my mother)....but still not enough to meet his needs. One question to you....My H has said to me that he wants sex four times a week. Plain and simple. Honestly, that scares me. I think of nights that I have gone to bed exhausted from running the kids to hockey, maybe even working late myself and just plain being tired after cooking supper and getting ready for the next day. He has said that if he does not get what he wants, he will be gone. I have told him that I have put all my needs on hold. And when he comes back, I would like to start making progress with him down the "right road". And not my "right road" -- "Our right road". I am very optimistic about my H coming home, but know that it will never be perfect. There is going to be hard times, but it depends on whether we turn to each other in those times or turn away. Is it fair/right for my husband to be that set on getting his needs met? Opposed to having faith that we both want this marriage, our life has been hell and to rejoice that we are rebuilding what could have been ended...... Or maybe I could ask him to help out when I am feeling tired so I can regain some energy that I lost during the day. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

BMWM,<p>Let me ask you a question. If you weren't tired from the day, would sex 4 times a week be a problem for you?? Is it something you could do and perhaps enjoy??<p>Why am I asking? Well, several reasons. One, I don't think it is right for an H to DEMAND sex. I am an H and you are getting my opinion. I do think it is normal for a man to want that much or more sex however. I also understand your issues of being tired (funny when tired women don't enjoy it, but me do almost no matter how tired, Oh Well!)<p>I will tell you that sex for men does many things. Most women are not aware of a subtle thing. It is a relaxant. THat is why men go to sleep after having sex, especially if they are already tired. The male body produces a hormone to slow the heart beat down after sex, way down. The heart rate gets very high, yet few if any men have a heart attack during sex. The reason is this hormone that the body produces to slow it down. This point might be more important to someone who has been addicted to Pot which is a depressant. He may need something else from the sex, and that is the calming affect of it.<p>So sex is a method of connection, a relief of the sex drive, and this other factor. Why am I telling you this?<p>I think you and your H need to POJA this. I think he is afraid that things will go back to what they were. But, it is also true that you will not enjoy and will build resentment if you are "forced" to have sex on demand. <p>If you have some understanding of what he may be seeking. Then when your POJA there might be more understanding and you may be able to reassure him that if it doesn't happen 4 times a week, that it isn't because you are drifting away, don't care, or aren't interested in him.<p>Do you see what I mean?? It is not a hobby for men, it is a strong drive with complicated responses. Actually, that is true of women as well, but the responses appear to be different. That is why I mentioned your Mother's comments, they ignor some very important facts.<p>My feeling is that you two need to deeply discuss this. If normally the 4 times a week is not a big deal to you and even something you would enjoy, then tell him. Reassure him that you want to make him happy. But, also explain what sex is like when you are really tired.<p>The problem you will have is what many of us men have. Women seem to be "tired" alot and the sex life goes to way down the list of things to do during the day. Seems strange to me as a guy that women would think it is nothing when all they say to us guys is that "sex is all we think about." Kind of a strange "Catch 22", don't you think?<p>In any event, consider talking at length and in depth with your H about the sex, and the many other issues. Life is about adjustments and few things are set in concrete, but it is necessary to realize what is important.<p>Hope something I have said helps.<p>God Bless,<p>JL