My H has implied that I have not taken responsibility for the A. But will not say anything specific because he "doesn't want to start a fight". <p>I have admitted to the A and have answered all of his questions. I have followed through on everything he has asked of me. I cannot think of anything that he has asked of me that I have not done for him. He tells me that I am doing a good job of meeting his ENs. I tell him that I love him and that I am sorry everyday. <p>My question is this: What else is there to do or say in order to take responsibility for the A? What am I missing here?

Being a BS I understand your husbands point of view. <p>Here are the things my W has done;
She has answered all my questions, even the ones that hurt the most.<p>She has written me a letter expressing her sorrow.<p>She has agreed to councelling and agreed to post and seek help here at MB.<p>My continuing problem with her is that she still shows little sign of understanding the extent of damage done. This has enabled her to slip up and make contact with OM again - and that has killed any hope I had of being with her anymore. I can't emphasize enough the importance of no contact with OM to your BS. I had no idea it would hurt this bad to find out contact was made, but it has killed our relationship.<p>My advise to you is to show him you understand the gravity of this pain you gave him - how you do that I don't know. Maybe take some time and really think from his perspective. Really look at this as if you were the one going through it. Maybe that will bring you closer to understanding in yourself the enormity of it all, and from that he will begin to see remorse and your own sorrow over your part in the A.<p>I know this sounds morbid, but there are times when I wish I would have just caught her somewhere off alone crying, shaking and feeling this - as I have.

Hmmm... It sounds like he is afraid to talk to you about his true feelings. It sounds like he is afraid of your reaction. It sounds like he is afraid that you will get defensive or that somehow, he will not be heard?<p>He said if he tells you what else you need to do, it will start a fight so think about your reaction next time he feels safe to share with you.<p>In your mind, you think you are doing all the right things, but something IS missing and you have shut him off with your past reactions when he has tried to tell you.<p>Something else about you needs to change. Pray about it.

Whether or not we realize it, we (wives) have the ability to create the environment in our homes. Maybe you can work on creating a warm and friendly atmosphere where you listen to your family more, and don't interrupt people when they try to say something. I'm speaking to myself first, so trust me, I'm working on this area too! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Good luck!

Hi Regetting,<p>You've been so good at answering my posts that I have to try to answer yours. I think you know you've hit the key phrase 'he doesn't want to start a fight'. In other words he's holding back from telling you something he feels you should be doing. At the same time he is telling you that he feels you react rather than listen to what he's saying. Could it be that he feels this behaviour contributed to the affair in some way and that changing those habits would indicate you've learnt something. I'm guessing here but I'm sure you have get him to open up a bit and be very careful not to react, just listen. If this really is too hard get him to write you a letter. You can go somewhere alone and read it. Vent about it here, but don't react in haste.<p>Good luck.

Hello there,
For my WW and me. She has said she was sorry as well, but I am taking the lead in M recovery still. Im semi ok with it because I know how much of a task it is for her not to talk to or think about OM. AND I know she has work and school, BUT while I plan A and am trying to meet her needs, part of the BS still feels she should be ding her best to try to fix the big rip in the M she caused also.
Have you tried plan A'ing him? He may feel while you have apologized you havent done all you could to show you want to fix the marriage and reassure him. <p>Hope that helps!<p>-hi

My question is this: What else is there to do or say in order to take responsibility for the A? What am I missing here?<p>Apologize - with empathy, with remorse, with humility, with humbleness. Share in his pain. Help carry his burden as Jesus would. Apologize in detail. Not just for the affair, but for each and every lie or dishonesty associated with it. Tell him what you will do to make it up to him - tell him that nothing you can do will ever be enough compensation but you will do all that you can to show him how you feel and that what you did was wrong - then take action. Start acting differently. Start loving him and protecting him in every manner. Make him first in your life. That means being willing to sacrifice everything else, house, job, friends, hobbies, everything. You may not need to do so but you willingness, without reservation, will communicate a lot.<p>You asked what else you can do. I would love it if my former wayward wife would do any of the above. I feel the same way your husband does.<p>[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Longing ]</p>

I know this sounds morbid, but there are times when I wish I would have just caught her somewhere off alone crying, shaking and feeling this - as I have.<p>Not morbid at all. That is exactly how I feel at times. I drives my crazy to see her so under control while I still silently suffer daily.

I am sorry everyday. <p>It is possible that you are bringing it up to often. I know I would get sick of being reminded of it daily, even though I think of it daily. It would be difficult, after awhile, to see a daily "sorry" as sincere.

*sigh* recovery is hard, and I can tell you, I find it difficult to be satisfied.<p>My WS has been completely regretful, he has apologized over and over. He has written a letter describing how bad he feels. He has cried and told everybody what he did. It is not him suffering what I want, as a matter of fact it breaks my heart.<p>I guess what I want is to be able to go to sleep at night. What I want is not to have to second guess myself and feel inapropiate. I want my husband to do everything we do special, new. I don't want to share any memories with OWs.<p>I don't like telling this to my H. Makes me feel I am pushing him, "picking" a fight. I don't like making demands, makes me feel that if I ask for it he'll do it out of duty. I think he should do it out of the heart.<p>This brings a lot of communication issues and doesn't help a whole lot. So I try to hint, but he doesn't get it. I say "I want coffee" he brings me a piece of cheese, [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>I think that I agree with Bintheredunthat, try to make your H comfortable. Comming out of our own shame and dishonor is difficult. We are vulnerable and we fear to be exposed. We feel very left out out of the WS life, and we also have a lot of self doubt. A little reasurance does miracles.<p>(((((((((((((((hugglez)))))))))))))

Thanks so much for all your input. <p>First, I so interrupt a lot. I realize I am doing it and have been working on not interrupting, which is a hard thing to do once you are in the habit of doing it. But when I don't react to what he is saying, if I am trying to understand and feel his pain, then I don't care. Because if I cared, if I would have something to say.<p>Second, yes, I do say I am sorry everyday. But it isn't because I bring the subject up. He does. He doesn't realize that I don't think about the OM that much unless he brings is up. Is this part of the healing process? <p>Third, communications is a problem with us yet again. We email each other daily. Today I asked about what I could be doing to take responsibility in his eyes. His response was that I just have to do what I think it right. He isn't going to tell me what to do. I don't expect him to tell me step by step. But I would like to be pointed in the general direction.
He says that he is distancing himself from me emotionally so he can objectively evaluate me as a person and our relationship. His actions back this up. He says he needs to do this is order to evaluate where we go from here, i.e. recovery or divorce court. He expects me to do a lot of talking but isn't doing much himself.

Interupting:
GOD yes thats annoying when my wife does it, that and half paying attention, or not at all. Look him in the eyes when listening. wait for a pause THEN speak. try it it really is important. When someone interupts or isnt truely paying attention, EVEN if it isnt about something important, it can really make you feel that what you say doesnt matter. If it is talk about something serious it is many times more important.<p>Saying sorry:
Well saying sorry everyday might be a little overdoing it. But just a verbal im sorry everyday can loose its meaning. Also Try to surprise him. Like I said before. Take the lead in the recovery. That might be what he is looking for. Me I strive for affection, apologies or anything my wife initiates. Dont wait for him to bring it up and it doesnt have to be A talk. Maybe he wont think about the A so much if you bring up M talk or just say im sorry or hug or do something to work on the M YOU initiate.<p>Communication;
Well I think he might be wrong by expecting you to find out I guess. But perhaps his feeling is the old: "if I have to tell you it is not heartfelt and doesnt mean anything" Which is wrong no matter who it comes from but I know Ive felt the same way.
If you dont understand it, well what feels better: getting a hug you asked for, or getting one because someone thought you might like one.<p>Show him you are trying at least, even if you dont hit the nail on the head I think that might help. <p>"He expects me to do a lot of talking but isn't doing much himself. "
Hmm i dont know your story, but in my situation I know as the BS I did a LOT of talking up to this point and I still do a lot of the talking and making the first effort. As a BS sometimes Ifeel if I stop trying things will fall apart because she never initiates conversation or M improvement ideas or talks. <p>Does that help?
-HI

Regretting,<p>Looks like you are in the same exact place my WH is now.<p>When I talk to him he interrupts, but if he doesn't he looks down and I think he is just not paying attention. That was one of our biggest issues before d-day. He would wonder off and anything I said would be bouncing off of him, so now I am scared that he is doing the same when he isn't.<p>Try to work out a signal for your H. Caress his hand, give him a peck on the cheek. Look at him straight in the eye, something that tells him "I am paying you my undivided attention, I am listening".<p>As I said before, I don't think your BS will ever ask you to do things to make him feel special, loved, valuable. I think what he means with distancing himself is that he wants to evaluate your plan A. Regretting, he is your H, I am sure you know what makes him smile, what doesn't. <p>Have you tried just hugging him tight out of the sudden, in public and telling him something like: "You are the love of my life, you know that?". That on its own would make the day of any BS. If you do stuff like that for a prolonged period of time he will start doing things like that for you too.<p>My H does that, and in a start I wasn't cooperative, I would not do stuff like that for him. I was still very angry, but after a while the anger was washed away by his unconditional love, and now we are always surprising each other and finding completely new things to do, things that he has never done and things that I have never done. We are creating a whole new story.<p>About the OM, I know I bring the OW up when I think I may be doing anything that she might have. She wasn't a nice person, and I don't want to be anything like her, so if I feel weak and stupid I end up bringing her up. I just want some extra reasurance as: "Alostwife, OW has nothing to do against you. You are so much better than she ever was" [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I know I know kinda childish, but believe me sometimes I really would like my H to say this things on his own because he really sees it, not only to inflate my ego.<p>Either way, Regretting, you are trying and you are trying hard. Do not try too hard though, it will just make you stress and do the opposite that you want.<p>*********hugglez***********

Second, yes, I do say I am sorry everyday. But it isn't because I bring the subject up. He does. He doesn't realize that I don't think about the OM that much unless he brings is up. Is this part of the healing process? <p>Ya. I could talk about it every day - and I did for awhile with a relative - sometimes four hours a day. I burned through 1600 minutes of phone cards in about three weeks.<p>His response was that I just have to do what I think it right. He isn't going to tell me what to do. <p>Then he is not living up to his end of the bargain. You cannot be expected to do the right thing if you are not being given feedback and proper communication. It is different if he has no idea what he wants but my guess that he has some idea.<p>I don't expect him to tell me step by step. But I would like to be pointed in the general direction.<p>Yep, and it is fair to expect such from him.<p>He says that he is distancing himself from me emotionally so he can objectively evaluate me as a person and our relationship. <p>I say that is nonsense. As a BS myself, the only reason I distance myself is to keep from getting further hurt or when my needs are not being met. What distance does he need to see things objectively??<p>His actions back this up. He says he needs to do this is order to evaluate where we go from here, i.e. recovery or divorce court. He expects me to do a lot of talking but isn't doing much himself.<p>It appears that he may be testing you; or punishing you. Neither is appropriate.<p>If the two of you are not in counseling, I recommend you get there as soon as possible. You don't have to put up with his "evaluation." If he keeps it up, I would recommend tough loving him. It would likely toss him for a loop for you to go to him and state that you no longer want to continue to the relationship in this manner. My guess is that he would straighten up rather quickly.<p>Check out Love Must Be Tough. Also, you can try the following link on asertive communication:<p>http://www.uiowa.edu/~ucs/asertcom.html<p>It is nice to be able to help one of the formerly wayward every once and a while. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Best of luck to you.

Where do I begin? There are several things I'd like to comment on. Everything that has been said here I have seen and been through. I am the WS, but I have also taken great steps in experiencing and understanding things from my husband's eyes and heart.<p>Ok, what to do next? Several times it was said to feel his pain and really understand it. That is really true and helps a lot. You may be trying to stay in control of your emotions and hurt to focus on his and be the strong one and allow him to have his "day in court" so to speak, but he doesn't see it that way. Explain this to him. Then, acknowledge his pain and hurt. Tell him that you understand you have hurt him and that you know that all the pain he feels is a direct result of your choices and actions. One of mine and hubby's big turning points was the one day when I was talking to him and I told him how much I hurt. I explained that I hurt because he hurt and that he hurt because of me. I said how I realize that my choices, my actions are what has caused all his pain, his insecurities, his sadness and confusion. I told him that for so long I made the choices and I gave him this hurt and that the worst part was that I cannot take it away. These realizations brought me to tears. I told him that I know now is his turn to make the choices that determine our future, and that I will work with him all the way and in the end I will still be at his side showing him I deserve a second chance. I think that conversation helped my husband truly see how much I feel and try to share his pains.<p>Next, it's true that you could be bringing things up too much. Maybe he is, but maybe he's looking for more. Just a thought.<p>As for the interrupting - I was always the same way, and I'm getting better. Let him know that you realize you are that way and that you are working on it. That you want him to be comfortable talking to you. When he does talk to you and you interrupt, try to catch yourself and stop. Apologize for interrupting and allow him to continue. In other words, interrupt yourself. It will help him to see your desire to know what he feels and has to say. It will also help him to be more comfortable and not so insulted by your interruptions. We all know that people can't change overnight, but show him you are working on it. He needs to know that his feelings count, that he matters.<p>Sure, he's gonna be cautious at times, because he probably feels that he'll just be making himself vulnerable. Or maybe he has this nagging voice in the back of his head that is still trying to protect his heart. It's normal. Simply let him know that it's ok to feel that way. Let him know that you understand and that you are ok with that. Also, let him know that in time you will show him that it's ok to let those walls down and that you have no problem waiting on him to feel comfortable with that.<p>I think someone else said to try to put yourself in his shoes. It helps. Also, these boards can give you a lot of insights. Use them wisely and apply them where and when you can. <p>I hope this helps. Be patient with him, and keep up the good work. He's hurt and the thing is that when he gets past one pain he is faced with a different one to trudge past. It's hard, it's tedious, and they are ever so strong to continue trudging - understand that, and empathize with that. Allow your heart to be seen wide open. You aren't being selfish by sharing your remorse - you are taking the next step in owning - you are sharing the depths of the pain. <p>Take care, and much strength and luck to you.

Regretting,<p>In all of the posts I have read here, one of the most effective things a WS can do while in recovery is to bring up the affair themselves and talk about it. The tendency is to say little, try to sweep it under the rug, and if they have been here awhile to answer all of the questions honestly.<p>But, to my mind taking responsibility for the affair means leading the healing and that means talking about the affair. Something along the lines: "You know I was thinking today about what OM and I did..."<p>If you bring up the affair and LEAD the discussion of how you felt, how you feel, and how you want to feel, what you want to do with the marriage, etc., then you are taking responsibility for it.<p>I know you want to forget it, but you need to show that you haven't forgotten. Sounds strange doesn't it? But, forgetting suggests to BS that you could do it again. Not talking about it suggests that it was "NO BIG DEAL" to you. Your H wants to know what you have learned, what you think about when OM or affair crosses your mind, how YOU feel when you see H down. He doesn't want to pry them from you, he wants you to take responsibility and LEAD.<p>Does this make sense to you??? I hope so. But, I will tell you the posters whose WS's have done this seem to recover very well and faster than normal.<p>So give it some thought.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Hi Regretting,<p>Dr. Phil says the one betrayed cannot find emotional closure until the WS has fully remorsefully acknowledged to them the gravity of what they have done.<p>Could it be that your H needs that kind of validation from you, Regretting?<p>Just a thought. Prayers for the both of you.<p>Lv,
Jo<p>[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Regretting,<p>You have gotten lots of good advice and I would like to reiterate that I, too, would love for my WS to crumble with guilt and remorse. I have never seen it (just once after I caught him and threw his butt out).<p>We will be separating soon and I'm at the point (after many DDays and OWmen) of not wanting to tell him ANYTHING about my expectations... I'm waiting for him to step up to the plate and figure it out (take responsibility).<p>I think your situation is a bit different but I would love for my WH to show some major emotions so I know it's true in his heart.<p>I would also love for him (it has always been me up to this point) to draw up a recovery and rebuilding "plan" and discuss it with me. I've always done this after each DDay, we both sign it, and I'm the only one who follows it.<p>Basically I just want him to take control of our recovery (if/when we get there). I'd like him to make counseling appointments, I'd like him to post here and I'd like him to romance me and be overly attentive. And I'd like him to bring up our issues once in a while.<p>I'd like him to fear losing ME for a change!<p>Not sure if this helps at all!<p>God bless!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Always good to read your posts, F2B. I feel the same way. I sent my wife a link to this post as well as some excerpts from it. I hope she takes the time to read it.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Some I have been doing but will try harder and better. Some I have not tried. I will see if I can give these things a shot. I just feel like I am dancing as fast as I can but I don't know the steps. I feel like I am fighting a battle that I have no way of winning; that he won't let me win.