Hi, been so long since I posted on board, but in a real downer-. Since Jan I have had no contact with H (who has been living with OW for 1 yr now)
I have house papers to sign but have just done nothing about them, H has sent note with mthly cheque to ask if I am now in position to sign them- I have not replied!. My problem is if H is happy with NO contact at all should I accept this as proof marriage of 30yrs IS OVER? How will he know I have changed without contact - other than before this I was constantly texting, phonin, and generally suicidal- H has no contact with 3 children all grown-up and left home and who refuse to have any contact with Father. My MIL + SIL at my request have no contact with me becos I could not forgive their betrayal of lunching with H & OW a mth after SHE moved in with my H. They also have no contact with my children, who also felt betrayed by their lack of loyalty.
I have been trying the fake it til u make it philosophy( regarding trying to get new life ,move on etc. sometimes it works but always a memory or anniversary to throw a spanner in the works. If H is in la la land. I am in limbo land- unable to really get over the past.
Unable to accept that my marriage is just OVER. a lifetime of loving one man even after all he has done to me and his kids is just so hard to break. My feet are stuck in clay! my head says yes, get a life, move on Do you really want him back, kids will not forgive him, He shows no sign of giving OW up, no sign of missing his kids wanting to b a part of their lives etc, and definately no sign of wanting to save marriage- so am I just STUPID, one of those who never recover, sick, pathetic creatures.
last few weeks got me down and can,t function- back to tears , not sleeping etc, been off efexoe 3+mths- no councelling, have to make it on my own or not- does the pain ever go away? or do we just bury it deeper, what do I do, contact H ask him to come for joint con with me so we can end things amicably and hope it helps, give up? how?
D said she wud never marry if Dad did not give her awy( 18mths ago) now I feel wedding plans may b in the air do I tell H when I know she does not want him to know? her anger with Dad keeps her strong- I cannot fel that anger towards him, OW yes, MIL, yes but not H. Daughter will not marry
in localchurch as was always plan- too painful reminders of life we had before W*...
The thought of what should have been our happiest day is now turning into a nightmare for me and more pain than I can bare. HELP drowning and not sure I can swim against the tide much longer.
Sorry this is soooo long makin up for all mths I have just lurked, cos I feel a hopeless case, ASAP.
Been doin if in doubt do nothing but only stay the same that way. love to all. Naej

Please bump up any replies desp needed. head will explode if I don,t come to a conclusion!!
but don,t want to make one in desparation just to be free of indecisiveness! relying on you guys! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] relying on you guys!

naej,<p>Sorry I didn't see your post earlier ... I thought H was willing to go to lunch w/ you ????. what did happen ?.<p>Yes, it is hard with all the memories that we have w/ our SO. I can't tell you much except give no idle time, get ADD, talk to freinds and relatives, and pick up new habit or hobby.

Hi naej,<p>I am out-of-town now so this will be short. I'll be back at my home computer tomorrow.<p>You said before that your H was not seeking a divorce, right? He is OK living with OW and not seeking D?<p>I'm sorry to say that it appears to me that he will stay in this mode indefinitely. He's fine with these arrangements. Unfortunately, it is taking a terrible toll on you. It is also terribly disrespectful of you and the children.<p>Your choices seem to be 1) let things stay as they are (in which case, you will suffer an increasing damaging emotional downward spiral), or 2) seek a D yourself (which you don't want to do - for obvious reasons - but which would enable you to be free of the downward pull of H's choices)), or 3) build yourself an independent life that will give you some fulfillment and do everything possible to ignore H's actions, pretend he isn't there, you don't need him to be fulfuilled, etc., but still stay married to him.<p>The one thing you can't allow to happen is to stay in the state you are in - low self-esteem, thinking of him all the time, reliving in your mind his awful behavior, etc. You cannot change him at all, but you HAVE to change how you are reacting to it. You have a life to live. Don't allow him to control your life.<p>To heck with your H in regard to your D's wedding. Focus on her, not your H. You walk her down the isle, or her brother, or an uncle, or a granddad. You cannot make your H want to be a part. What a horrible thing he is doing, BUT don't let HIM ruin the occasion. Yes, it will be sad, but this is the choice he made. Don't let him dictate the happiness for the rest of you on this day. <p>And naej, please don't be the go-between with H and D on this. It is something that should be resolved between the two of them. He has to take the responsibility of disappointing D. Don't you be the message carrier. In fact, I say don't say another word to your H. He has chosen to disappear from the family. You can't change that. So be it. It is his loss worst of all. Let him gradually realize what he has done to himself.<p>Well, I guess this wasn't short after all!!! I feel so badly for you that your life has been on hold for a year because of him. Dear naej, you have to play a mind game with yourself. You have to pretend he's gone for good (even if he may truly not be, we can still hope). Pretend you are a widow, devastated by the loss but fully capable of working through the grief and becoming whole again.<p>You are a good person, a very worthwhile lady who has a lot of living still to enjoy. Continue to see your doctor. Keep on the meds. One day at a time (or 1/2 day at a time) force yourself not to think of your M. DON'T GIVE UP!!<p>Take care,
Estes<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

Estes & Red Hat- as ever my thanks.
Yes H was coming for lunch, but then chickened out (Poss due to OW influence) agreed to come when I had found a house I thought might b suitable. Property been very slow here- just beg. to pick up, wanted him to rethink financial settlement before I signed house to b sold. H told me solicitor had said that was what he had to offer-but he never got back to me- I have had NO contact for well over mth now- made no difference to him. Cannot transfer pension without going for a D. I presume his sol has told
him this! Still he has not mentioned it. Last communication was a text mess I sent askin what he intended after home was sold! Still waitin for a reply.
Really feel he should now contact me he wants home sold. OW must be wanting him to cut all ties- altho they rent a nice country property SHE has never owned her own home so maybe happy to rent.
Beginning to feel I should leave everything and just go. Always the risk of seeing OW when she returns to visit D but only done that once in a yr, that was for her G/ch;s b/day!
My H knew how much it shook me up. Hard to start from scratch when kids are grown + new job, but maybe I wud sink or swim at least I,d know?
Yes I am a widow- the man I have loved from the
cradle almost is no longer. The doting Dad is gone -just like he went to get a paper anf forgot to return!. I know my contact was making him ill-too much guilt/pain he couldn,t cope he told me. If I truly love him I should want his happiness above all? that means letting go-right. but I can,t beleive this A will bring him that happiness-can,t help him on that but can not add to his distress by being a constant reminder. What to do????
I cannot bring myself to D him, He must do it- thats one thing I will not make easy for him. I am so sure of that one thing!
Sorry this is long hopin by putting it down some of it will stick in my heart, its already in my head.
Going to look thr plan B letters and see if I can draft a "sort of plan B letter" Limbo land losing its appeal,and ok for most of the time but prevents me moving on- but also prevents any more crisis that I can,t handle. Never beleived I was capable of being so weak and indecisive.Always beleived OUR LOVE was cradle to the grave TYPE.
Who are you married to in heaven, God said Let no man put asunder(marriage vows) always bel. that- still go and pray,light candles etc, but is it a comfortin ritual, cos I can,t see any light.
More than enuf whingin- at least I had 28yrs happy marriage+ all the yrs before that- lot more than some people, Hard not to b loved or needed I guess.
Hope u r all doin so much better than me. I will make it -oneday-just got to.naej.
Had a few possible houses 2day from estate agent- not what I want or where I want but price is right- still considering just leavin altogether and moving away- no idea where- anywhere, but that means giving up my job.
Will not tell him anything about family/kids ur right its up to him to contact them or at least try.
Don,t talk to freinds re my sitch feel they think I have moved on-or should have ,can,t expect them to u/stand! and been so long.

REDHAT PS What does ADD mean? also Estes yes H lives with OW 1yr now down in south of country- OW D lives in same village as me with 3kids + partner. We never speak! She was at sch with my own D but they where never frds- different backgrds/type. OW son lived with his Dad since he was 12yrs now 18 and living with OW mother who is disgusted withher D but has ph. contact so I am told.
H has never mentioned a D , he has paid all bills for house and gives me an allowance, only thing he did do was stop joint acc. and cash in some policies to reduce morgage. I signed for him to do that, OW is working as a waitress, was barmaid/cleaner.
I have no real family, a sister but we are not close- only just told her about events! my Family was H;s family+ mother and sister at least til they betrayed us- so really I am on my own as are the kids BUT we have each other and are close, they nearly all ring me everyday, altho all over the country. Nearest son visits most wk/ends so I am lucky in that respect. N

Hi,<p>Now that I understand about your in-laws being your family, I can see how awful their acceptance of OW is for you. What a slap in the face, especially in light of the fact that you were family for so many years!!<p>You are in a difficult position. If you D, you lose H's financial help. However, didn't you say that you would get part of H's pension after D. Of course, you do not want a D at all! From your earlier posts and the fact that WH continues to help with the bills, he is extremely aware that he is doing a very bad thing. Why does he continue? It's hard to accept that you may never know.<p>I have a big question for you, and you don't have to answer if it is too personal. If you were totally on your own (divorced), would you be able to survive financially? I don't mean barely survive, but be secure and not in fear of being able to pay the bills? Your answer to this question will have a big influence on what your options are. <p>Thinking of you,
Estes<p>PS: Do you want my email address?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by naej:
<strong>REDHAT PS What does ADD mean?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Anti depressant Drug ... I am on paxil, I gave in ... this A problem is not for normal body and I could only take so much beating.<p>Like Estes said, your H still feel guilt on his actions. But guilt alone should not bring him back. IMVHO, you should take a look at all of your options and then comparing it w/ staying put plus try to get contact with H.<p>Try to get him to have lunch again.

Hi, lunch time here 13.10pm. Just had quick look at replies as going out tonight!thankyou for your time as ever, never knew you could have such kindness from strangers.
I should very much like email or ICQ number ( I recently got ICQ. Maintenance ongoing til circumstances change(mine) or retirement (his)(so H states- in sol letter- but I require more than he is offerring so it needs to be discussed -difficult with an invisible man.Can manage now but not much left over for major items.
Did text yesterday just to say I hadn,t had a reply to my question-know he picked up message straight away BUT NO reply?Does that tell me something in his interest to see/or talk to me- but nothing.
Must dash will check bk later. much love & thanks Naej. Take care.

Have you discussed your options with a lawyer? You could get some legal advice without filing for a D. I would at least take that step in order to investigate what your best options are.
I can't advise you how to do it, but you must somehow cut this man out of your heart, let go, and turn your sights towards another future. I know how hard that must be.
One thing I suggest at this time, is whether you have the time to get involved in perhaps a volunteer activity where you could do good for others. In December, when I was in despair, I began helping my friend's daughter, who may be autistic. At age 3.5 years, she could not speak. I spent alot of time playing with her and doing therapy, and helped my friend set up a home therapy program for her. I felt like all my beliefs about love and trust had been shattered, but at least I could say, "I gave love freely to someone, a child. I did some good in the world."
If you have the energy for something like this, it could help a bit.
I am so sorry you are feeling this pain. I think the advice given above is good.

Guess what, ph H to see if he wud come for lunch, discuss house sale etc. B>>>> on holls!!! message on ans machine-UR right he is dead! and I am hangin on to a big nothing- why do I still breathe let alone hope. sorry to b a failure- black hole swalling me up!
What a wife I must have been! First H desrts me- no explanation except 10 mths later to say I was borin- them my Inlaws betray me! praphs they are ALL Right maybe This is all there is. At least they can square their conciences by saying I was "Disturbed", So so alone!!30yrs and b.... nothin .How I hate wk-ends!
MIL b'day on day H and His W**** get back, no doubt be a celebration- she must b really proud of him- haven;t read of any other DAD or H who has had NO contact with his kids- praphs they r not his maybe that was a dream in another life as well, maybe I will ph and congratulate her on her wonderful son and his new choice of DIL for her, anything or body must b better than the one I was for 30yrs. This has gone on too long, So sorry to vent, n

Hi,
He is the one with the problem, not you. Don't let him bring you down or make you feel any less a worthwhile person. I feel just the way that you do. I don't want to start over, I want my life back. We are just going to have to either wait and pray or give up and move forward. Either way, we have to continue to breathe, and live each day to the best of our ability. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

OK!! Reality check here, naej.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What a wife I must have been! First H desrts me- no explanation except 10 mths later to say I was borin- them my Inlaws betray me! <hr></blockquote> <p>Excuse me {{{{{hugs for naej}}}}, but WHO are the failures here??? [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] Who are the ones who have abandoned common decency for immoral selfishness and disgraceful disrespect for fellow human beings, wife, children, and grandchildren??? NOT ANOTHER WORD ABOUT YOU BEING A FAILURE, OK. Tell us. Who is the devoted parent in this family? Who is the one committed to her marriage? Who has been patient and forgiving above and beyond what her WS deserves? !!!NAEJ!!!<p>If, in fact, you have lost this marriage, in no way have you failed in your attempt to do all you could to prevent it from ending. <p>Try to see this, five years down the road ........ There you are [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] : laughing with your children, bouncing your little grandchild on your knee, looking forward to the future surrounded by people who love you..........Hmmmmm, there is no room in that picture for you-know-who. Since he has proven that he does not value his family and has made his choice, let him have what he wants, and start your walk down the road to that future you just imagined. He's the big failure and loser, naej, certainly not you! And believe me, he knows it.<p>OK, now that I am through lovingly yelling at you [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] , I'll go for awhile. No more failure business, OK.<p>Estes<p>PS: After one year of his W's infidelity, S finally admitted that he needed some medical help to deal with the continuing stress, even though he is by nature a cheerful and optimistic person. Antidepressants are temporary and very effective. Helps you put things in a more positive perspective. Why don't you consider it.<p>You are so right, redhat:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>... this A problem is not for normal body and I could only take so much beating. <hr></blockquote> You MB warriors sometimes need to call in reinforcements, especially after your recent discoveries. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

naej, I am hestitant to reply, since I am the wsh, and cannot walk in your shoes...but I have been with my w for 30 years, so can identify in some ways with where you are in life...if you prefer I not, just say so and I will delete this. We are seperateing this week, and for reasons not relevant to your circumstances are considering divorce, and I guess if one had to assign blame, I am the cause. Partly though is cause I will not do what your H has done, live seperate, and just let my w dangle in limbo (nor would I go live with someone else, the a ended as it should, when I agreed to consider reconcilliation, but that is another story too). If I cannot give her full committment, I will set her free, and take my lumps...so I cannot really identify with your H in that regard...nor would I ever neglect my children, or behave as your H is. I only tell you all that so you have some idea where I am coming from...now on to you.<p>Thirty years is indeed a long time, regardless of what happens people are connected by history and children, if they find they cannot live together maritally that is an issue between them to be worked out, but I do not understand the poor treatment often visited on the spouse who is "left" (I don't know whether the bs or ws leaves more often in a 30y M ...I have seen both scenarios, but really makes no difference). I am very distressed over the trauma I have caused my wife, and would not even consider treating her poorly after a sep/divorce (although it appears she may hate my guts, but that is understandable) I will support her as long as needed, lifetime if necessary, and I will not reject her either should she want to interract with me, it is possible for people to realize they cannot live together maritally, but be good to each other as ex-spouses, and it is sad when that does not happen. <p>What I am saying is the pain is gonna be there, you are normal, actually is there for both, cause an ending has it's own grief...I suspect your H is weak, and running from that pain...if he really doesn't care about you, then that is kinda monstrous, and you never really knew who you were married too, and guess best to know now, so you can grieve, then recover your life, and walk the new path God has laid out for you. My suggestion is to not focus on him, let him go as if her were dead....if on the future he recovers and wants a relationship with you (either reconcilliation, or post divorce) then you can decide what works for you....In the meantime read about the stages of grief, and try to work through them...be proactive about planning your life, and be firm (by way of solicitor) with any settlements, or on-going support....I think it is very insensitive of him to leave you hanging like this, but he will have to answer legally, just protect yourslef and leave emotions out of the legalities...file or not (divorce) whichever is in your best interest...nothing is final, if you reconcille and want to remarry later, you can...just arrange your life as best works for you...and I agree with letting your kids work out their own issues with dad, is not your place to referee that.<p>In the meantime continue working on yourself (self-improvement), I also like the idea of volunteer work, is a good way to "give" without risking hurt...you don't want to shut down, and not trust anything in life ya know....maybe some exercise too, maybe travel some, lots of things...just be patient with yourself, try to do a little each day that is postive...baby steps.<p>I also have some thoughts re sil mil, I know it hurts but making people choose sides is really playing with fire...they are your family too, and part of your kids life. They did not betray you (even if it feels like it) your H did. I suggest you contact them, tell them you are very unhappy, and do not want to blame them or be at odds with them...nor intend to ask them to take sides, or be involved in anyway between you and H...and tell them how they deal with H and ow is up to them, just to respect your feelings re conversation, or attendance issues re ow, but that you would like to continue your relationship with them. Try (if you want) to have your own seperate relationship with them....they are part of your life too, no reason to lose everything.<p>It is tough after 30 years to change things...a little easier for guys cause we have our work, my w is a sahm....and is pretty much like you are right now. She does have a good relationship with my mother, and no reason why that will not continue... but she feels lost and in limbo, so do I. I will have to take care of my own stuff (laundary etc), fend for my own food, take care of my own appointments and such...stuff I have not done for decades. People come to depend on each other for just stuff, and no longer can, that is jarring, and depressing. But new patterns emerge, life goes on, and is what you make it.<p>She will have the house, and kids will live with her (1 adult, 2 commute to college, and 16yo) so maintains some sort of continuity, I will be nearby far as parenting support. She likes to work, meet people and such, so is looking for a job, that will help her...how about you? Is that possible? Whatever you do, I think one of the best ways to view this kind of change in a long term relationship is to view the other partner as having died, what would you have done then? Perhaps in the future your H will attempt to make at least amends, apologize, and maybe you two can have a relationship out of that 30 years invested in each others lives, I dunno...maybe not too...but you have to let him go now, what you had is gone...and what you will have in the future is unknown, and will unfold in it's own time, and it's own way....in the meantime just be the best naej you can be, and use this time to focus on yourself....you have a lot of life left, make the best of it. Good luck<p>[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

That is a nice post to naej, SNL. I hope that you and thinker can settle into a comfortable relationship somewhere down the line.<p>Estes

btw naej, you are not a bad wife, or person...you are an imperfect human being as are we all...your H made his choices cause of who he is, not who you are. My w and I are not seperateing cause I don't "want" her, or she is defective.... she is not a piece of property to discard, or trade in...she is a fine human being, with many good qualities, is the mother of our 4 wonderful children, and I love her....but we have issues re an intimate marital relationship that stress us, and is unhealthy...in some ways I have not been good for her, or her for me...this was not malicious or deliberate, it just is, I wish it were different but it is not, and for now, I don't think it can be....we need to be apart, she does not want this, but I know it must be, she needs to find herself, and she cannot do it with me around, likewise for me....it makes her very angry when I say this, but all I can do is what I think is best....I may be a little more verbose, articulate than many re human relationships, some think that good, some bad, so be it...but what I am suggesting is your H may not have had the words to say it, and obviously has responsibility issues, but I can't believe he does not know deep down this is about him, and hopefully he will communicate that to you some day...but whether he does or not, I will stand in for him and tell you instead.....you are a good woman, you did nothing wrong, relationships change for many reasons, I am sure there were things you would improve, there always is, but life is not 20/20 hindsite and we only drive ourselves crazy trying to relive the past....you did what you did, he did what he did, you are where you are, life is like that....neither you or he maliciously set out to end up here....it is not helpful or healthy to worry about what life coulda been, or blame either bs or ws...take what you have and continue to make the best life you can...just as you always have.<p>Thanks estes.

Sad_N_Lonely- re Naej
Thanks for your imput afew questions for u if you don,t mind. Firstly did u leave for OW? how did yr kids reacct to that? my D begged her D to give OW up- they all knew her and her sordid rep( had lots of affairs barmaid in village made no secret that she fancied my H but I regarded it as ajoke in fact H and I laughed about it. H drank in pub- OW also dinner lady at sch I work at. had decency to resign last day of term.At first Dad said he had given her up to Daughter but just 1 of many lies incl b/trip that he told us all about Hol with OW). He was livin at home but worked away all wk- only when he knew A was being talked about in V did he tell me( OW made sure village knew)as we cudnt cope with seeing OW leave vill to go spend time with H we asked him to move her out. Event she left(another story)
My kids adored their Dad, d& him very close Now they will have no contact Dad sent new adress thats it- D ph him couple of times but thats it.
MY inlaws DID betray us all. they cud have seen Son w/out OW!! H does not visit her fam. Her owm M is disgusted with her-knows her history she has her G/son living with her! she is a G/ma .My own Kids wrote to inlaws to say how hurt they where about them all lunching etc- no replies just these things happen!!I was told I was in no position to say who they see! Only G/ parent my kids have.so u see I strongly feel they should have been there for my kids I never asked or expected them to have no contact with Son but did expect them not to meet OW. Call themselves Christians pray for us- sent cards saying we are in their thoughts YET did nothing to help us- strangers in Vill did far more.
All the yrs of our M I was the one who kept in touch/wrote cards sent gifts hosted get togethers etc reminded H to ph. suddenly nothing, All my MIL has said (never mentioned that her S is in an adulterous rel, was that my H has never said an unkind word about me & that he loves his kids!! funny sort of love.
He told me all our yrs tog where mostly happy ( so why cud he not go to Coucelling?) He got a new job, red sports car, joined a gym and put a W**** on his arm.
Now he does nothing saw a sol, after I got one- offered me mainten, pension as I have only ever worked part time- still do but wants house sold- yet is unwilling to take any resp for it being sold WHY, once again this is long trying to c/understand yr point of veiw.
Did u where u happy with yr OW why destroy yr marriage if u then gave her up. Did yr kids know her, how did they forgive u< sorry if this is too personal, so many Q in my head. N
[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

I don't mind answering if it helps you, that is one of the reasons I post (as well of course many posts trying to figure out my own stuff). I didn't say much about me cause I wanted to just write about you, and regardless of circumstances share the dissolution of a long-term marriage with you, so thought might be helpful in some way. I don't know if you have read many of my things, I view human relations much different than many, and rely on a lot of rational/logical/analytical tools to find my way, by far most people are more emotional than I (and leads to philosophical conflict often, and rather disparaging comments re my person..oh well), I just tell you that so you have some idea where I am coming from, you could also search my posts if you are interested. I do not think marriage is the be all end all of defining who we are, I think it is a living paradigm that only works if it is a safe,nurturing,healthy,joyous place....if it is not that I think it healthier to put a little space between two people, and not try to maintain (or force either one) the intimate behaviour and expectations of the marital bond....better to seperate a little bit, so those expectations are removed, and be the close, special freinds ex=spouses can be by virtue of shared history, caring, and co-parents. This outcome seems to be thrown out the window as people become very aggressive, demanding, and hurtful in the seperation process....it seems people cannot accept somone does not want to remain in the marital state, but does not hate them, will not mistreat them, and wants to be supportive....frankly I have no idea why...and I know couples who have recognized they just can't be married, but are very good, nurturing friends, so I know it is possible.... many times one becomes aware a spouse has warn a mask, and in fact is a very undesireable person, so certainly one would want nothing to do with them, because they are damaging to ones well-being....there are many sociopathic people in this world, and many end up married to them, and just overlook it, but I digress, on to your questions.....btw, from your description, I am nothing like your H, and have little sympathy for him, I think he has mistreated you badly, and continues to do so...but since I know neither of you, it is hard to really comment on who did what or why.<p>naej...Thanks for your imput afew questions for u if you don,t mind. Firstly did u leave for OW?<p>snl..No, we have had marital difficulties pre-dating our marriage, and just continued on. We are both good decent people who have our own baggage, and that baggage is stressful to each of us. The affair happened because we were in the marital state of withdrawal, had nothing to do with each other (except dutiful things, and tried to at least be respectful, but no emotional connections other than basic caring)...I did not realize (I do now) that meant I was emotionally open to bonding with another woman...I made innocent freinds with a nice person, and something clicked...she too was in a similar 30 year, emotionally empty marriage)....We broke the rules and acted on it, faced the realization we had to deal with our own lives, separated and focused on our marriages, and the problems therein, until they are resolved one way or another.<p>naej...how did yr kids reacct to that? my D begged her D to give OW up- they all knew her and her sordid rep( had lots of affairs barmaid in village made no secret that she fancied my H but I regarded it as ajoke in fact H and I laughed about it. H drank in pub- OW also dinner lady at sch I work at. had decency to resign last day of term.<p>snl...She lives 2000 miles away, We had a platonic relationship for 8 months, then saw each other for a week, went through a roller coaster time for several months afterwards (and w found out shortly after we met that this friendship had become romantic...she knew I had made this on-line friend, I tried to include her early on, but she was not interested, and left me to my own devices...but again, we had little to do with each other, I did my stuff she did hers). The kids do not know her, although they met her son briefly...they have no real opinion about all this, they know mom and dad have been unhappy for years, and that our family has had a lot of internal strife because of it....they see we have made an effort to deal with this, and pretty much leave it up to us, they are not choosing sides. I do not know why your H took up with this apparently not very um..... questionable woman. That he did is very interesting in an academic sense, there are reasons for everything naej, nothing "just" happens...if you could figure it out, you would then know who your H really is. It is possible he and the ow do fit, are peas in a pod in some psychological way, it is also possible he is rescuing her, the poor mistreated, misunderstood town whore and he is the white knight....but a white knight without much sense, so a very flawed white knight, and an unfortunate marital choice for you....or he may have rescued you too, and somewhere in the marital dynamic he concluded you were now saved and he sallied forth to save another damsel, perhaps that is why he said you were boring....maybe he would come back if you could make him see you need to be rescued...anyways I don't know, just making guess to show you this is all about human psychology, not you being a bad person, or your H evil...this can all be figured out if one understands well enough...the question is, do you necessarily want that sort of H, do you want him to always see you as needing rescue (if that were true, or whatever reasons are true)... One does not have to be married, your life will go on, in a different, and quite possibly much better and more interesting way, if you do not let yourself get stuck in depression, and bitterness. You have your history, cannot be taken away....you have your kids, they cannot be taken away...whether your H walks the D down the aisle is only as important as she makes it....makes no actual difference in real life, she has her life, she can live it for herself, or be upset others are not playing the role she assigned them...such is life, it is what we make of it, it always is. One of my core beliefs is whatever does not kill you makes you stronger and better... what has happened to your family is not destructive, it is a growth opportunit to a future as yet unknow, but one that will be better....if you let it be.<p>naej...At first Dad said he had given her up to Daughter but just 1 of many lies incl b/trip that he told us all about Hol with OW). He was livin at home but worked away all wk- only when he knew A was being talked about in V did he tell me( OW made sure village knew)as we cudnt cope with seeing OW leave vill to go spend time with H we asked him to move her out. Event she left(another story).<p>snl...Lies are part of the deal in A, simply how humans function, no point in dwelling on it, or losing sleep over it. It was the part I hated most, as I am a very truthful person, and value honesty above all else. But in human interactions when you are doing something you know others will interfere with...you lie, it is a tool of self-determination....if I knew no one would interfere I would not have lied about anything...but I knew others would interfere in my right to make my own choices. Some would say I lied so to avoid consequences (such as wife leaveing etc.)...I am not a cakeman, I would have been ok with her leaveing, but that is not what would happen, instead she would have inteferred in my developing relationship with the ow. That was unacceptable.<p>naej...My kids adored their Dad, d& him very close Now they will have no contact Dad sent new adress thats it- D ph him couple of times but thats it.<p>snl...Again, I do not know your H, but he seems to not have a very well-developed sense of self-esteem. If he loves the kids, and was a good dad (one has to really ask, was he a good dad, or did he use the kids to make himself feel good?)...then avoiding them now is cause he does not want to have to deal with the anger, and criticism...if he was a man he would face the music with them, and you, and deal with it....then if you wanted to cut him out of your lives, an ultimatum type thing, that would be on you...but he is not playing fair, he is trying to be in control it seems, and avoid discomfort...out of site, out of mind. I feel bad for you all, just adds insult to injury....but he clearly has poor interpersonal coping skills, and little sense of responsibility.... He may even have convinced himself it is better to stay away since he is so evil etc., and is doing the best for you all....this is an obvious self-serving rationalization..but is a common one for those with personality disorders...he is clearly messed up naej....but if you want to deal with him, or then kids, you may have to let the anger go, and make it safe for him to do so....can you do that? Do you want to do that?<p>naej...MY inlaws DID betray us all. they cud have seen Son w/out OW!! H does not visit her fam. Her owm M is disgusted with her-knows her history she has her G/son living with her! she is a G/ma .My own Kids wrote to inlaws to say how hurt they where about them all lunching etc- no replies just these things happen!!I was told I was in no position to say who they see! Only G/ parent my kids have.so u see I strongly feel they should have been there for my kids I never asked or expected them to have no contact with Son but did expect them not to meet OW. <p>snl...I know this hurts, and if they were just fair weather friends (the kind where you do all the work) maybe best to just let them go, is your call. I only made the suggestion you should not really blame them for their actions. It would be nice if they exerted pressure on son to not be with this ow...but I am philosophically opposed to that kind of pressure...IMO no one should interfere in this most personal of choices, who to have as your intimate partner.... people need to be completely free to choose, not coerced in any way, it is the only way I feel safe...had my w had the affair, I would have told her parents to do whatever they want re om, but not to exert pressure on my behalf....I would want my w totally free to do whatever she wants, and if it is not me, so be it.<p>naej...Call themselves Christians pray for us- sent cards saying we are in their thoughts YET did nothing to help us- strangers in Vill did far more.<p>snl...On the other hand, I think it proper they support you if they want, they have no obligation to trade you in just cause their son did....It is too bad they did not...and if in fact they chose sides, then I guess you need to do what you need to do...find new friends.<p>naej...All my MIL has said (never mentioned that her S is in an adulterous rel, was that my H has never said an unkind word about me & that he loves his kids!! funny sort of love.<p>snl...Well that is something. He must realize at least this is his choice...but even if so, you deserve better treatment from him, especially if he thinks well of you, and loves kids...a funny kind of love indeed.<p>naej....Now he does nothing saw a sol, after I got one- offered me mainten, pension as I have only ever worked part time- still do but wants house sold- yet is unwilling to take any resp for it being sold WHY, once again this is long trying to c/understand yr point of veiw.<p>snl...I feel very strongly about this, especially a man leaveing a long-term relationship with a sahm. Supporting you for life (assuming you don't make his life h*** in so doing I guess), if needed...helping you recover your emotional balance, and so forth is just plain human decency. But alas many do not....if that requires you get most, or even all, of the marital assets, then you get em all, no argument from me. That is the price one pays for their role in the marital crisis of infidelity, even if the marriage was already in trouble anyways...it is some sort of cosmic fairplay in my reckoning. Do not feel you have to be "fair"...he left you, so take care of yourself as aggressively as neceessary....tell him is not vindictive, but since he is not there to finish out the life bargain made when you gave him children, and stayed home to raise them, that he provide for you, then you have to look out for yourself, and hope he understands that.<p>naej...Did u where u happy with yr OW why destroy yr marriage if u then gave her up. <p>snl...Sigh...the questions that can never really be answered naej.... I have come to understand one cannot gaurantee how human beings feel about each other in the mystery of the close interpersonal relationship of the marital bond...I just know it either works or it doesn't...and one cannot maintain it as a duty, is obscene to do so, and violates basic human psychological well-being.... and one should not maintain the legal contract if the emotional bond is not there in the right way....is just plain unhealthy to both parties....you end it, work through the grief, and both will be much healthier in the long run....if one cannot do that, the marriage was a dependentcy, and simply proves it never really existed, was just two people using each other to get needs met. I am not destroying anything, one cannot destroy a marriage, one can only recognize the truth re the bond, and act on that.....marriage is not a thing, it is simply the legal reflection of the psychological connection of two human beings...and there are standards to measure that by...most marriages do not meet the standards, and only exist as dependent accomodations of some kind...and that is enough for many, and they are legal marriages, but they are not the emotional bond of oneflesh IMO....oftentimes the people do not even really know who the other is behind the mask...like your H.....people gaurd themselves (are not radically honest) and a host of other stuff that means there is no real emotional marriage, hence there is nothing to destroy. People do not have to be married, nor do they have to stay married, and it is curious how angry and aggressive we get about this, and trying to keep people in a marriage...it is almost like the marriage is more important than the well-being of the people in it....if someone wants to leave a marriage, by definition there is no bond, or they would not want to go....that is just life, and the chance you take when you marry someone. If the marriage ends it will only be because that is the healthiest outcome, no other reason, it will fail because it should fail. I think this is the proper outcome fairly often, the problem is one should learn from the experience, and too often one does not do the work first, so does not learn, and repeats their poor choice, or missed an opportunity to fix it....this is not true in my case....I was done, if I wanted to run I would have done so a year ago....instead I saw the need to understand what happened before making any final decisions. I also don't view marriage as life or death (it obviously is not, my wife was a total stranger before we met, so obviously we can live without each other)...marriage/divorce is simply a boundary, one of intimatecy, of vulnerability....and if it isn't working in a healthy way, you move away from each other a little, to the other side of the boundary, and relive the stress and expectations of marital intimacy, and should get along much better, but if one wants to hate, blame, abandon (bs or ws) that is their choice...but it sure reveals the nature of the marriage in the first place methinks...was not much of a bond of mutual love and respect that's for sure.<p>naej...Did yr kids know her, <p>snl..NO<p>naej...how did they forgive u< sorry if this is too personal, so many Q in my head. N<p>snl...It is not their place to forgive me, no one, not even our kids, has any status to dictate who we give ourselves too, who we give our mind, and our bodies too. No one can decide that for another, not even your spouse, it is a free gift, given everyday, and when it can no longer be freely given, the marital bond no longer exists, and probably never did, was just an illusion, being in-love, with being in-love....no one dealt with the reality. The only forgiveness needed is for w to forgive me for betraying her expectation of exclusivity to my emotional/physical self...and that is only needed for her sake....likewise I need to forgive myself for hurting her...but I know my intent, and while some (not many though) have affairs to actually hurt/punish/gain power over a spouse....most are not for that purpose..... my life took me to a place of conflict between her needs, and my needs... I had to choose, and I did for a variety of reasons, I knew there would be a reckoning, and I was willing to pay the price, and I have done so....If I could do my life over, I would. I would have divorced or reconcilled with wife before this event....unfortuneately I aws ignorant of several important things about me and marriage, and the affair corrected that ignorance, it was an expensive life lesson, but that is the way life works oftimes.....and if it doesn't kill you, you grow and move on (that applies to bs and ws)...that is all you can do, none of us can rewrite the past.<p>Hope this helps some more...I can't really give you much from your H view, cause I suspect we are very different people...but maybe the thoughts on how this all comes about, and how to go forward are helpful....rejection is awful naej, and even though we all know it is really in our heads, we still give others power over us in this regard...this is an awful blow to you, your self-esteem, your emotional well-being....but it is not about you...your H did what he did, it is his stuff....use this to improve yourself as you see fit, increase your understanding of human behaviour, and go forth into the future with your head high, God has not abandoned you, He has plans, just make sure your eyes are open so you don't miss the path....Good luck.<p>and yes, I am dysfunctionally optimisitic, is not a matter of thinking a glass is half full or half empty....if there is even a drop of water in that glass, all will be well.<p>[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Sad_N-Lonely.
WOW That is some reply and one that I will need to read and re-read many times! Thanks so much for all yr time and effort. I can see that we differ greatly in that I am a very emotional person. "Cancerian"! and veiw marriage in a very different way to u. Plus I disagree with comments re kids- after all they did not choose to come into this world and I beleive A Dad is for always, and kids should expect them to be just that- for always We give our children our values and beliefs and they have every right to expect
us to live up to them.
My H and I grew up tog, therefor I cannot rem a time when he was not in my life, and to me He was my life, my kids are an extension of that life , that bond, that love our commitment to our marriage. Anyway as I said alot to read and take on board-
(have to say yr anaylityical? approach to emotional affairs and discussions would probably have me reaching for yr throat if we were in the same room! (in an exasparated sort of way) no offence- I do see yr point of veiw but if you are so detached how do you FEEL all the wonderful emotions and sharings that go with marriage and to have been married for so long without "being
part of that other person you vowed to love....even becoming almost one at times" That I found difficult to comprehend. many thanks.
thanks to all of you for your help- feeling better today- now got to beg forgiveness from my kids for being angry with them, managed to have words with them all yesterday! entirely my fault and for no other reason than they care! I know makes no sense but praphs you will u/stand.
Estes did get email- will reply (praphs u can b my MIL? acoss the pond.
Hope u are ok Redhat- was on meds for nearly yr-at time felt they didn't help, but not so sure now. Have one major fault really major! I am a very PROUD person and will cut off my nose to spite.... etc. So very hard for me to reach out for help- found MB a blessing cos I am anon..mous.
I do definately need to DO more-waste so much of my time- thkin, what ifs, might be's. Could do so much more. Lonliness is a killer for me. The more down I get the more I issolate myself ( appearances to keep up! reputation for being in control, capable,together, but all a front realize I was those things becos of being a part of a marriage, B4 u all rush to yell at me- self esteem lectures etc, know it all but can,t help way I am. slowly makin changes! Now go to yoga, and doing a few other things, entertaining a little again, theatre/cinema with girlfreind. Hard when everyone thks of u as double act- and found old friends (both had.) find it hard to react to u as a single- others seem to thk u are on the look out for H no2! dispite still having H no1. albeit in lala land.
The one thing I have now acknowledged is that when the BAD times come I have never sunk as low as in the beg, so I can say "yes today stinks I will stay in bed/phone off, cry all day BUT 2mrw I will get up and make another attempt at rejoining the human race.
My love and thks to so many of you.Naej.xAlso to SNL my kids thought WE wre v happily married and had very happy up-bringin with no undercurrents therefor shell shocked by what happened may put dff slant on thgs- just hought towards end Dad was goin thr MLC. U r right bout why he doesn,t contact thks its best for us all to have nothing to do with him, and I don,t thk he can cope with the rejection of him. OW is D for a long time-and eH says she always wanted to b better than she was, go up in world! H, says she told him bout her past!but she is not like that now! Pas me the bucket!Will get bk to u re remarks about anger if thats ok?

you sound like you have a good attitude naej, and will be all right, one of the hardest life lessons is to give up pride (guess that is why is one of the 7 deadly sins huh)...reach out, people like to help, so in a funny way by being needy you are doing your part to let others give to you...make any sense [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ? Yeah, my throat has been squished a few times, but it takes all kinds methinks, and I am way over to the analytical side, I got feelings too though, so I know...but I think the difference is in coping, I cope analytically, shut down emotions, others need much more emotion, so when you get us together you got fireworks, we say get over it, not end of world, new opportunities...and you say, I am hurting, I had expectations, I was comfortable, I have a right to feel bad, and rejected...we are both right....and I get angry too, w knows how to drill through my analysis, and get me going, and I then call her names, and say mean stuff....and I hate that...but I do apologize, cause my analytical self will not let me blame her, is my mouth, I control it.<p>Maybe you could (when you feel able to deal with the emotions, anger etc.) tell your H he really needs to reconnect with the family, that if he has to leave the marriage you will deal with it, but do not want to be enemies, and he needs to be an important part of his kids lives...tell him it would be nice if he explained himself some, and no one will argue or say anything and will make it safe for him to do so...see if kids are up to it too....if you can get him reengaged naej, who knows what might happen, but you have to do so honestly, and with no expectations, or hidden agenda....also the ow will resist this, so don't give her any ammunition if he does come around...make any sense? In the meantime work on yourself.....I can only offer this most basic advice, anger will fix nothing, do whatever you have to, to get past the anger....and leave whatever is to be up to God (that is how you unload the pressure), be accepting of whereever life is to take you at this point....and remember this, the futrure is yet unwritten, everyday is a new day, new opportunity, learn from this place in your life, about you, your kids, they can learn too....this is far from over naej.