FROM A POST BY GENEVIEVEM
I must admit that the thought of calling him did cross my mind, not bcos i missed him or bcos i wanted to talk with him, more bcos i was just used to calling him. Well, i didnt and i am proud to say that......when the thought crossed my mind, i thought of my H alone in town waiting and worrying about me being alone and i called my H to say hey. Today i had about an hour at the office and i didnt even have the urge to call OM. i could feel that my H was worried and insecure about me calling OM but i truly and honestly didnt. <p>ANOTHER GENEVIEVEM QUOTE:
s, its been easy to call OM but i have no reason to anymore. From some of your advice, i know now that if the thought of OM creeps into my mind, all i can see is my H and his eyes filled with tears and pain and i can also see his smile which is something i have not seen in a while.<p>A PARAPHRASE FROM ONE OF MY POSTS:
I have heard that my wife is contacting OM from her office, and that he maybe using another persons phone to contact her.<p>A PARAPHRASE FROM MY WW LATER THREADS:
I know my husband has posted that he thinks I am in touch with OM but I AM NOT. How do I show him that I am being honest now, that I could never do that to him agan.<p>Ladies and Gentleman, friends and onlookers,
The last three posts I quoted were AFTER she had been in contact with him. I just came from the PI's office wherein I heard the conversations and I am sick to my stomach - in fact I actually vomitted while I was downtown at a Starbucks. Made a fool out of myself.<p>When she found out I was taping her conversations she came up with this story about wanting to end it HER way, so she initiated contact to do this. However it is BULL****, she was coverring her tracks to say that. It is so obvious from the tone of these conversations that she was starting something up again - getting this poor sap to fall all over again. I actually feel bad for him right now. Saying things like "I miss you alot" and "I don't laugh anymore like I did with you" it's all so pathetic I have to vomit again - excuse me. <p>Oh and let's say I give her the benefit of the doubt, which I never will again; she said lately that her motivation was to break his heart, to come out on top and make him feel like ****. OK, if that is the case how was she supposed to break his heart from just phone conversations? If she is saying this than she obviously had planned to meet him - and likely already has. My PI says it is highly likely she has met him and more than once.<p>At any rate, to make things worse, judging by the dates on the calls, and the durations, my wife has spent a grand total of 8 days without contacting him, after promising a month ago no contact. She continues to give him more time than me. <p>I am through here, it is often said that a decision shouldn't be made out of anger - well I am not angry, I am freaking devastated. She has betrayed me in the worst possible way - yet again - lying to everyone including all of you. This is who I should love? This is who I should say I can trust? If someone can help out here I would greatly appreciate it because this woman is playing with my mind and breaking my heart every damned day I am alive. I am so confused and hurt now - this is worse than DDay.<p>She has also written a post here recently to "come clean" I guess, after I confronted her of course. So much for radical honesty - how bout radical dishonesty; anyway, I am bumping hers up too for attention - I never read her posts until after I found this out, unless it was accidental lurking. But now I can tell you all I have read from her lips were lies meant to throw me off her track and get me to believe something about her that is not true - that she is worth trust. I swear I could die right now.

I know that what you're going through right now is horrible, and you are not alone.<p>This is probably bad timing on my part to say, but your feelings of devastation will pass. But it will be more like a marathon race instead of a sprint to your goal. Pace yourself. Be kind to yourself. Take care of you. You didn't do anything to deserve any of this, even your W said so in her posts. Your W admits that she has some serious issues with dishonesty that need addressing.<p>There are always two sides of every story and I appreciate your willingness to share your side of this one. I don't know what to say to make you feel better, but a lot of BS's see their doctors and get anti-depressants to get over the humps.<p>Maybe you should make an appointment today. Concentrate on YOU.

Bintheredunthat:
But it will be more like a marathon race instead of a sprint to your goal. <p>But what r my goals now? My goals three days ago were to stay in this wonderful recovery we started, to move ahead together with slow and deliberate actions and enthusiasm. Now I don't have a goal!! I don't want to feel better for myself - jeez I have come to hate myself for being such a sucker for her.<p>I can't understand what else I can do now, i mean I have tried and tried and she keeps playing me like an idiot, she keeps stringing everyone along for her own whims and selfish desires for whatever.<p>I have never let anyone see my pain, she is the only person ever to see me in agony. But in being radically honsest, I have openly showed her the enormous agony I can feel, I haven't tried to hide anything from her. This has done nothing to her, has not reached any part of her heart. She keeps saying "what's the use, u'll just leave anyhow" - like I'm not worth any effort for her. This is hell god help me please<p>She hides everything from me, and even now - after all and I say I have to leave - she is ignorant, screams, threatening suicide and threatening not to come home from work. I am in agony and she still twists the knife.<p>How can I be motivated to work on myself when I am laying here bleeding - it feels just like that - like I can't stop the flow of blood and the person I have begged to help opens the wound further instead of dressing it.<p>I am so lost

VeryHurt,<p>I know that what I am going to say is contrary to what everyone here will say, but the fact is that whether you want to remain in this marriage is your choice and only your's. I can understand wanting to save marriages, but in your case, I have to wonder if it is worth saving. In any event, you are the one that must live with whatever version of marriage you end up with even if you put your effort into it.<p>How do you save a marriage (a partnership of two) when the one with the impetus to change isn't and is spending more time thinking up new lies than working on the marriage?<p>VeryHurt, only you can decide what is best for you. Clearly, your W has decided what is best for her.<p>Good luck.

I know that you are very upset right now, but please don't make the mistake of thinking that you have the only WS who has done something like this. <p>You tried to trust her and it blew up in your face. You have set some boundries for recovery and one of those is no contact, you found contact and now you know that you are not in recovery. Where you go from here is your decision. But remember you have always had the right to end this marriage from the beginning and you didn't. Now is not the time to throw in the towel. Now is the time to sit down and think through why you tried in the first place and see if any of those reasons still exist for you.<p>You came here for a reason. You might say that it was to let all of us know what she is really up to, but I think it might be more. For your own sake, please look deep inside and make sure you want to walk away before you make any moves.<p>Prayers are going out for you.
Sinking

I know how you feel; one lie after another........but your wife does sound repentant. if she does want to try, REALLY try, can you try also? The pain does fade, and you CAN make it.<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky

I have some additional theories about marriage resolution that are not usually viewed as such. That being this fixation on keeping the marriage together and working hand in hand to a restoration... people and marriages are varied, across a whole spectrum, that would imply one technique does not fit all either. In the case of serious dysfunctional marriages regardless of reason, I think divorce is actually a tool. People react to their circumstances, and I think (quite often) the nature of the interpersonal difficulties is such they literally cannot be together...they continually trigger each other, and overwhelm any possibility of change and recovery. The very fact they are married (and the expectations that come with it) is a trigger for negative interactions. However, if they divorce, and remove the stress of those marital expectations, they literally role back the clock to a time BEFORE the crap started. They can then continue to do restoration work within the context of a dating relationship (and they should stop sex alltogether)....but they KNOW now the nature of the person they are dating, and the dating is with the intent of marriage (just not casual) they can do exactly the same stuff they were trying to do married (not LB, communicate better, identify meet EN's etc.) but without the pressure of marriage. If your w wants to pursue the om, no problem, you just decide whether you want to "date" while going on...and if you happen to talk to some other women, again no conflict....it just seems this is a good way to clear the air some, and see what people really want. Too often people hang on to marital relationships cause leaveing them triggers possessiveness, jealousy, fear, and lots of other poor reasons to maintain that legal status.<p>I really don't understand the aversion to divorce, makes no sense to me, is only a piece of paper that promotes certain expectations. People are "married" or "divorced" by virtue of their hearts, committments, and behaviour....not a piece of paper.....plenty of married people are actually "divorced" and simpply rooming together at best..... and being hurtful/unhealthy to each other in a myriad of ways....likewise many divorced people have much better relationships with their ex than they did married, and often remarry as well.....and had they not done this, but "hung on" to the marriage, it may never have cleared up their issues, and remained in an unhealthy marriage for a lifetime.<p>I never realized any of this until my own difficulties, I lived my married life in the married fog, that the marriage was important itself, the picture had to be preserved at all costs, and to heck with being happy, it was a DUTY, you just did it, and that would make it all right...turns out human psychology and marital dynamics are much more complex, and oftentimes the worst thing you can do is stay married while trying to resolve your life. Your w needs consequences, that is how people function, it may well be she needs to lose her marital status to be able to properly evaluate herself, and you need to lose the marital status, so you can look at her without going ballistic over her admited problems.....you cannot fix her, she has to do it herself, and more often than not, people cannot/willnot change while still recieveing benefits (such as your remaining her safe marital place, and making deposits in her LB).<p>I don't think you can lose love, if people are in-love their marital status won't change it, if not it will, and maybe it should. You also cannot lose something you never had.....many people never had love and healthy marriage, they just thought they did, until real life crashes in, so if the marriage ends, and is not restored, that is what it was supposed to do....and it makes no sense to feel ones life is over, it never existed in the first place...you would think people would be gratified to realize that, yet they often aren't...that really puzzles me.

I'm sorry some people don't get it about trying to cheat this way. It's not just a lie; it's an insult to the intelligence as well to act as if they won't be found out. In the meantime, this oldie from the Alan Parsons Project seems singularly apt for the situation:<p>
Don't think sorry's easily said.
Don't try turning tables instead.
You've taken lots of chances before,
but I ain't gonna give any more; don't ask me!
That's how it goes,
'cause part of me knows what you're thinkin'.<p>Don't say words you're gonna regret.
Don't let the fire rush to your head.
I've heard the accusation before,
and I ain't gonna take any more, believe me!
The sun in your eyes
made some of the lies worth believing.<p>I am the Eye in the Sky,
looking at you.
I can read your mind.
I am the maker of rules,
dealing with fools.
I can cheat you blind.
And I don't need to see any more
To know that I can read your mind,
I can read your mind.<p>Don't leave false illusions behind.
Don't cry, 'cause I ain't changing my mind.
So find another fool like before,
'cause I ain't gonna live anymore believing
some of the lies
while all of the signs are deceiving <p>I am the Eye in the Sky,
looking at you.
I can read your mind.
I am the maker of rules,
dealing with fools.
I can cheat you blind.
And I don't need to see any more
To know that I can read your mind,
I can read your mind...

SNL,<p>You REALLY should not be here..............if you don't like the philosophies, stop coming here. We have said this to many an unrepentant spouse in the past........you are stirring the pot. Go away.

veryhurtHarley I'm sorry you're in so much pain. If I were in your position I would wait until the anger and disbelief subside to make any decisions. I totally agree with SNL that not all marriages can or should be saved but only you can decide what you want to do. Right now all of your emotions are at the surface. Take some time to calm down and think things through. You're in my prayers.

She met him too, in town on his birthday. Just found out not long ago. PI told me today but I didn't believe it til she admitted it.<p>What else is there now? I fear for my sanity. Can't someone make her see the agony? Someone here said she sounds sincere sure, but she IS NOT. She lies, misdirects, and then does whatever she wants. I really feel like she has used this board and the councellor as a way to direct the spotlight off her ****ing around. <p>I am a rug now, a peon, a reason to hide. I feel like a nobody, like I have been used and thrown away. I lost my temper not long ago, and now I am spent, feel crazy, like this isn't real.<p>I know I am wallowing in it now, but I am the only one here to feel anything. Thankyou all for your replies, I fear for my sanity. Please help

nina, there is no "right" size fits all, divorce is only a tool.... do you disagree with that? Why? It is not permanent, changes nothing re feelings, and can easily be undone....it is a tool, a good one for difficult interpersonal problems, it is essentially a plan b. There is some sort of phobia (by some) re the "piece" of paper, the focus becomes the piece of paper, and not the mental health of the people...that makes no sense, divorce reduces the stress associated with marital expectations, and gives a breather to everyone, that would seem to be a good thing.<p>Now if the real agenda for not using divorce is because you want to use those expectations to try and keep your spouse committed...that is coercion, and a poor basis for marriage...as well as breaks the cardinal rule of love, you cannot love anything you are afraid to lose, because you will act in manipulative ways to keep it... one of the reasons w plan a didn't have much affect is I knew it was contrived, I could feel it, it was done to try and persuade me to stay in the marriage...it did not address any of my very real issues re the nature of our relationship, and any attempt to discuss them (or my feelings) was met with extreme hostility, not very conducive to emotional honesty (my greatest need)...my w essentially refuses to accept a marriage can end, and figures I made a promise and must keep it forever...as long as she feels like this we cannot resolve anything, she cannot have that gaurantee...no one can, it skews the process.<p>btw nina, many (bs and ws) describe the old marriage as dead, no one wants it... so why not validate that...divorce, date each other and remarry after 6 months, year...if both find they like the "new" people each have become.... and if they don't, or the changes don't work, or someone else came along....isn't that for the best?<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Harley....<p>
Plan B is your friend.<p>If you are concerned with your sanity, protect it.

I wsa in your shoes last May. I found out about the A in March and thought that contact had ended about a week later. I found out in May that the contact was still happening. <p>I can not tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I did in my situation and how it has turned out so far. I was talking to Steve H. (still am) and he told me that I needed to go to Plan B to protect myself from not only what WH was doing to me but also what I was doing to myself and what was left of the marriage at that time. He asked me if I still loved my WH and wanted to save the marriage. My answer was yes. He told me that I was the greatest threat to my marriage being restored. Well talk about a slap in the face. I was the only one who was trying to save it and I was the biggest threat. <p>At the time I did not want to admit it, but I needed that slap in the face. I went to Plan B, I took care of myself and I started to move on with my life. Guess what I learned along the way! I still loved my WH and I still wanted to save my marriage. If I had not gone to Plan B when I did I would not have the chance that I am having right now with my WH. Sure we are not in recovery, but we are a whole lot closer than we were even three months ago and I am strong enough to handle what I am going through now. There is no way I could have done a good Plan A while I was so emotional and WH was continuing to not tell the truth. <p>Go to Plan B, give yourself some time to heal and then ask yourself what you want.

Nina too, for once I see snl's point. I have heard of countless divorces in which the partners are actually friendly afterward. Check out Myownme's divorce. I hate divorce too. Still, I don't know how I would react if I had been through what many of you have and are going through. <p>Harley, your wife does seem sincere from her messages. Just from being an outsider...have you tried grasping what she's telling you with a sober mind (not related to drinking)? I know that my H said something the other day and I totally blew up before he finished. When he finished, it wasn't what I thought he was trying to say. You have more than I did. I didn't really need a PI. But if I did, I wouldn't take his account as gospel. Maybe you and Genevieve can sit down with those tapes and she can explain the reasoning. If you don't buy it, then do what you feel is right. If you do buy it, then perhaps you can give her another chance. Of course, I am not there to see what is exactly going on. It just seems like you really love her. Have you read the story of Hosea from the Bible? His wife Gomer was a prostitute when he met and married her. She never changed. But, he loved her anyway. I think this story was used as an example of God's undying love for us. I think you have that for Genevieve. That being said, God had His limits too. He issued punishment. He was a jealous God, not allowing His children to worship any other god. The situation is very similar. She may beg and plead for you not to leave. Don't let her manipulate you into staying. Take the truth, all of it, and make your decision based on that. <p>I told Gen that she should drop everything and quit her job like you asked her to. Is that what you want her to do? What is going on there? Why do you think she doesn't just do that? Is debt that big a problem? Do you think she feels secure in Singapore? It would be difficult for me to leave my home country, though I would if my H was going. It seems like she hasn't cut her apron strings from her local life. She must do that and cleave to you. If you can get your M to the point where you want her to go with you, that may be the thing she needs. A little fright for her to cling to you. I don't know, just thinking. I'd better get off, smoke is rising off the top of my head.

AMENDMENT:<p>I only agree with part of snl's first paragraph. The second part is garbage. Why make the committment in the first place if your going to throw it in the trash as soon as your feelings get hurt. Plus, I don't think SNL knows what love really is. It is allowing the other person to fail and sticking by them anyway. Love is patient and kind. It keeps no record of wrongs. (This kind of contradicts Harley principles doesn't it?) It is not proud. It doesn't seek for itself. "Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perserveres. Love never fails." 1 Cor 13:4-8a. SNL, did you know the Bible says, "But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife." (1 Cor. 7:2-4) <p>SNL, I think your wife wrote in to say you had performed some kind of "biological experiment" with another woman? Was that you, or did I just blunder? If it wasn't you, this still applies to your statements. If it was you, when you get to Heaven (if you're a Christian, speaking with relation to my point of view), you'll have a lot of explaining to do.

from hoping4future<p>I told Gen that she should drop everything and quit her job like you asked her to. Is that what you want her to do? What is going on there? Why do you think she doesn't just do that? Is debt that big a problem? Do you think she feels secure in Singapore? It would be difficult for me to leave my home country, though I would if my H was going. It seems like she hasn't cut her apron strings from her local life. She must do that and cleave to you. If you can get your M to the point where you want her to go with you, that may be the thing she needs. A little fright for her to cling to you. I don't know, just thinking. I'd better get off, smoke is rising off the top of my head.<p>H4F,<p>Put the fire out. You are asking great questions;
I don't drink when it comes to situations like this, believe that. WS and I drink as a recreational activity - and maybe if I hurt I medicate myself a bit - but when the real deal comes down I am always stone cold sober.<p>And our debt is not a HUGE problem, but it would be rough going for a few months before I was working again. I am (was) ready to face that.<p>As far as I know she hates Singapore and can't wait to get out. The place is very oppresive for locals without a doubt. But then how do I know that isn't a lie too? She definitely hasn't cut the apron strings on this "local" life - if u mean OM and it makes me sick. She even talked about us with OM, she talked about me. She betrayed me so much in these phone calls and now having found out she met OM for his birthday I am already onto plan Z. As for playing the tapes with her - first off I couldn't even listen to the entire tape - I had to have him stop. Secondly if I ever heard her tone of voice with him, his puppy dog crap, I would likely have a heart attack on the spot. So I can rule that out 4 sure.<p>I don't believe in plan B for those of u telling me. Plan B for me is - for me, not us. I leave her and I will never think of her in any light condusive to a reunion - absolutely not. If I even started to I would immediately beat my head against a wall, cuz that is just NOT RIGHT in my book. Perhaps that's why I have been clinging so hard to the hope she would see how much I love her now and get with the damned proagram. I guess it's too foggy 4 her and u know what - whatever. She can have her little bull**** man - I will have a life without her. I will never agree with the principle that once you leave, you let them "have their way" and wish them well - pining away waiting. Nope that is not me and never will be. To hell with that. I will move on and show her exactly the same amount of respect she has shown me with the lies and betrayal of the past month - and that is a big fat ZERO. Maybe that is anger, but then again, anger is a great motivator. By the looks of things at this point, my life would be better without her lies.<p>However; she just finished breaking down hard - harder than ever - and says she can now see my pain for the first time (?) but none of this really matters anymore does it? She has lied so much I can't picture her being honest. I just can't trust her for **** and so no matter how I try to rationalize "one more try" (and believe me I have been) my conscience is telling me to get the hell away.<p>I don't want this woman anymore if she can lie to me like this, in my face, up close - and I will never know that she is being honest unless I sacrifice my whole life to monitorring her like she is a child. The small hope I had of trusting her again was actually growing because of our great time together lately - but it has been squashed by this news.<p>H4F yes I wanted her to leave her job because it seemed like the only way I can guarantee peace of mind that she would not speaking with OM was for me to be with her all the time. A part of me didn't pursue that demand to much because I had some trust she would do the right thing - especially since our recovery looked so promising. She has since proven my suspiscions right and shot down my optimism. <p>So let's face it, I can't always be with her and eventually she will do this again because it is her nature to be a liar - it is instinctive for her to lie and find dramas to play out.<p>I'm sorry for being so dark and sarcastic, but I think I am beginning to build a defence against her - and I find that it is comforting abit.

No arguement here. I sure can't tell you to stay, especially if you don't want to. You have no binding reason to stay in my book, and in the Bible. Gen told me you were spiritual, but not a Christian? I can think of no reason you should have to stay. You will possibly be hurt again, and if you are uncomfortable with Harley's principles, then what other recourse do you have? I can see that you love her, but that you are also hurt very much. If you go, you will get no judgement from me. If you stay, MB-ers and I will try to help however we can. Let us know what you decide, and perhaps you can share your experience with others once you cool off. We would love to have you. Also, whatever you decide, other of Harley's principles might help you if you choose to date others. I wouldn't recommend it so soon though. That way you don't bring so much baggage in. Take care of yourself first.<p>I hope I have helped. I hope MB has helped. I hope you have a rewarding life. And as often as I remember, I will lift you both up in prayer.

SNL,<p>I took exception to your comments because this man WANTS his marriage, he does NOT want a divorce.....neither does his wife. So, we should be giving them advice on how to do that, NOT come in with the "Oh, well, this isn't working...." frame of mind. This IS a marriage BUILDING site after all.<p>I do not intend to get into a slinging match in someone else's thread regarding this.<p>Sorry Harley.....<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky