Major LB'ing this morning. Wife and I have had a fantasic week since our last counselling session until today. Last night, my wife was 'happy' that I was playing a video game so that she could have 'her' time to relax, watch TV, etc. I said to her, if you want me tonight, let me know because I'm more than willing! Well, bed time for her came, she gave me a kiss while I was playing my game and went to bed. I assumed she was tired. Well, she wasn't 'that' tired because she ended up pleasuring herself before turning in. Now... I don't normally have a problem with that but my self-esteem is crap since the affair 2 months ago, I wonder if she thinks of OM while she does it, and I feel betrayed when I'm 'available' and she chooses her battery operated lover over me. So this morning, I was angry with her. I was upset and hurt and let her know it. I said to her that I was upset because she didn't come to me even though I was, and let her know, totally available for her. I told her that I felt betrayed and that as far as I was concerned she could have just called up OM and been with him because I would have felt just as hurt. I told her I expected a good explanation from her why she would choose 'it' over me last night. Her reply (eventually after being 'insulted' that I was not giving her 'privacy' and her 'space') was that she needed to 'know herself' and that she didn't want the 'effort'/'work' of being emotionally engaged in sex with me.<p>Why is it that she needs this 'her time' with her toy when I am available?? I told her many times that if all she wanted was for me to give her WHATEVER it is that she wanted with no expectations for anything more that I'd be more than willing... but she says that this is something I can't do for her. That she needs to find what pleasures her by herself and that it has 'nothing' to do with me.<p>I feel rejected and betrayed. It feels to me like it did when she went to OM to fill in whatever EN's/PN's she was missing from me but rather than him, she was using 'it'. I'm sure that I'm making a bigger deal out of this than it is, but I can't help how I'm feeling. I think it's just so soon since her affair that it bothers me so much.<p>The other thing is that I had a porn addiction for a # of yrs and that it hurt her so badly when I would look at it. I have since acknowledged it as a problem and stopped doing it. Now, she is the one doing something that makes me feel the same way as she did and she can't 'understand'. I have asked her if she things of OM/me/both when she does it... she says she thinks of NO ONE but rather just of the act itself and how it makes her feel physically....<p>Well, needless to say, she feels that me telling her that she should have just called OM if she wanted a thrill from something other than me was 'throwing the affair in her face' and was a major LB coming from me. I guess she's right, but that is how I felt.<p>What do I do? We have counselling tonight and I want to discuss how I feel about it. Hopefully she will get a better understanding. Maybe after talking about it calmly she will see how it makes me feel and I will better understand 'why' she needs this 'her time'.<p>Ladies, please tell me what it is that is so important to a woman to have this 'her time'... And why she would choose it over being with me?

Here goes...I only did it once to try to induce labor. I cannot imagine it being more pleasurable than being with my H. Her doing this, IMO, is paramount to pornography. It is a lust of sorts and you should tell her that. I'm sorry for you in this. Pornography is hurtful, and this is the same thing. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Now... I don't normally have a problem with that <p>but things have changed...very understandable. So this is something you two are going to have to discuss further. Without LBing. But, if it was never a problem in the marriage before, I can see how "hurting" you never entered her mind.<p>The other thing is that I had a porn addiction for a # of yrs and that it hurt her so badly when I would look at it. I have since acknowledged it as a problem and stopped doing it. Now, she is the one doing something that makes me feel the same way as she did and she can't 'understand'. I have asked her if she things of OM/me/both when she does it... she says she thinks of NO ONE but rather just of the act itself and how it makes her feel physically....<p>She is probably telling you the truth here..women aren't as visual as men when it comes to self gratification....anyway, that's hardly the point and won't do much to solve the problem.<p>Again...the only thing that needs to be brought up is your feelings and hers...and both treated respectfully and a little POJA too. Equating it back to the A....nope..just treat it for what it is. An issue between the two of you.
T

Well, you know, I think just saying "if you want me tonight let me know...." and then going back to your game is rather disappointing. I know that I would be a bit let down and maybe I'd go do the same thing that your wife did. Perhaps letting her know by your ACTIONS that you are available and willing is what she needs..Stop the game. Tell her how beautiful and sexy she is...kiss her...etc etc etc
I'm not coming down on you at all here, but I know I would have not liked that approach from my own H.

Well, I am going to assume (I know that is a bad thing to do) that maybe you and your wife have talked about the issues of sex, and that maybe you have come to a mutual decision that you will not outright 'pursue' her in the sexual way for not knowing what her reaction might be. Maybe you have always talked and let her know you were "available" to her if she so desired. So, my response is going to be based on that assumption.<p>I can certainly understand your point of view, that she chose her BOB (Battery Operated Boyfriend) over you. I can understand the frustration that could cause you. I can't really say that I can speak from experience in the BOB dept. Really any sexual pleasure I get is from my H. I do know that we may play around with the toys 'together' and that any pleasure I get from that does not compare to that of a real human. So, all I am saying here is that, no, I don't understand her need to play alone instead of with a willing partner, unless she just felt that maybe she couldn't put her "all" into it with you. I don't know the situation really, so maybe there have been times that she thought she wanted you and then maybe it didn't work out??? This of course is just one way you may consider looking at it. I don't know if anything I say helps you at all. I do know that there are times that I am more willing to participate in sex than my H and then I just let it go, although a very frustrating feeling (to not have someone want to be with you at that moment) it's only due to his desire being less than mine due to his anti-depressants, at least I know he isn't playing alone. <p>I will ask this though, how are you in the romance department? Do you ever just stop by the Hallmark store and pick up a "thinking of you" or a "love you" card and just surprise her with it? Do you ever just stop by the flower shop and just pick up even just a single red rose and surprise her with that little gesture? How about just saying that you would like to take her out for dinner, relieving her of having to cook? I know that at my house, the simplest little gesture of a card or a single flower or just a handwritten little expression of him letting me know he thought about me that day (without it being a precursor to sex) makes me feel so special. These little gestures can't hurt, can they? Maybe on this board those ideas are taboo, maybe they are veiwed as a LB, like not being patient with the WS, or like trying too hard to sway the WS in your favor. I don't know. Women like to know they were thought of, or that they were important. Good Luck.

I have given my wife a lot of 'attention'. This past week I have:<p>Wednesday - Rough day, had counselling session. Went home afterwards, watched a bit of TV together, went to bed and slept. No lovemaking.<p>Thursday - Spent time with her in the evening watching shows with her then making love.<p>Friday - We took the kids out for dinner and she went grocery shopping while I stayed with kids as they played in the 'play area' at McDonalds. I then went to my friends for the evening afterwards which I had planned to do all week (she pleasured herself that night).<p>Saturday - I went shopping with her for a few hours then in the afternoon I played a video game for an hour, then that evening we argued about what she did the night before, how it made me/her feel, made up... and made love.<p>Sunday - Cleaned house all day 'together'. Spent the evening watching a movie together, went to bed, made love.<p>Monday - 'I' got a babysitter, arranged for us to go to a movie - I did all the planning, movie times, etc.. Got home, made love.<p>Tuesday - Took kids to Karate, my wife went to gym. Got home late, my wife and I made dinner, helped kids with homework, made lunches for next day, etc. When choirs were done... what happened
next is in the original post above.<p>As you can see, I have been 'trying' to spend time with my wife. So much so that I think she needed time to herself. We have also had sex 4 out of 7 nights. So I think the 'sexual fulfillment' was there. It was good sex for her as far as I know. She has told me it was very nice every night. I was attentive and appreciative. I bought us tickets yesterday for a hockey game next week and told her this.<p>I do what I can to meet her 'EN's'. I tell her I love her often, I give her kisses (which I did last night on multiple occassions).<p>With all the sex she's been getting, I didn't think she was interested last night. So I gave her space. If she wanted to spend time with me I figured she would let me know. So I don't feel I was not 'there for her' in order for her to want to be intimate with me later. She DIDN'T want me to be around her. She wanted her space. She wanted her toy and not me last night. That's the bottom line. Although she did say to me that 'it doesn't mean I'm not attracted to you or interested in being with you, just not last night'.<p>I know that she feels that if I say 'I'm available' but then not be 'with her all evening' that I'm 'not' interested... but I was just giving her space that she has told me she needs. Little did I know that the space alone she 'needs' included BOB.<p>I can't help feeling upset about it. She sees it as 'me' having a problem. That I should be 'fine' with this. Well I'm not... and she has done nothing yet to understand me.<p>I believe it's an issue for both of us. I believe that I'm having an issue about this that is blow out of proportion because of my insecurities lately. I think there is a problem with her as well because she doesn't understand that my problem with it causes a 'problem' with us and her unwillingness to take into account my feelings regarding it hurts me greatly. All she has to do is 'hold off' on these things for a bit until we have a chance to 'work things out' regarding the issue. A chance to come to a mutually agreeable decision that takes into account both are feelings and not just hers.<p>Hopefully that will happen at counselling tonight.

Hi SJustinen,<p>Here is a link to an old thread that may help you. There are some books mentioned in the below linked thread that may be of help.<p>Click Here<p>Jo<p>[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

The issue is not that she has difficulties acheiving an O when engaged in intimacy with me. I am very capable of helping her achieve an O or multiple O's. The issue is that she does this when she doesn't want the pressure of performing for me, of feeling like 'I' need something, of being mentally/emotionally willing to be intimate with me. She wants to be by herself. She is tired, but still wants to feel good before going to sleep. She doesn't want to include 'me' in the equation. What I don't think she understands, is that I'm totally open to doing it for her. To helping her feel good with no 'intentions' of anything more. I didn't need 'sex' last night, I didn't need 'love' or 'intimacy' or an 'emotional connection'. I just needed to be the 'one' that gave her the amount of pleasure she wanted... and then let her have a good night sleep.<p>She doesn't even wish to 'share' using the toy in our lovemaking at all. It's 'her' thing, her personal, private thing. I think she is embarrased about it. Feels it's dirty or something and that is why she is so secretive of it and won't allow me to share it with her either by using it as a sexual aid in our lovemaking or by me even 'knowing' that she uses it. When I have used it with her in the past, she has stated that I didn't use it right, I wasn't gentle enough with it. I am VERY willing to learn how to use it properly but she won't even let me try. Whenever I mention it she gets very defensive. She wants to keep a 'separate' private life from me and is very resistant to 'opening' up her feelings, thoughts, and desires to me. I know I have hurt her in the past and that her rebuilding a 'comfort level' in the future towards her intimate private thoughts being revealed to me is difficult... but I go through so much pain revealing all of me to her when she is so unwilling to 'let me in'.<p>I just don't want my wife to find pleasure outside of 'us' again. At all.

Dear sjustinen,<p>I don't think I misunderstood your initial post and truly didn't mean to add to your frustration. <p>If you take a look at the link I posted you'll see that there are some recommended books the members on that thread are referencing that can help with intimacy challenges in a marriage.<p>IMVHO, your wife's choosing to fly solo with her toy is a symptom, not the root cause. Perhaps the books referenced could give you better insight as to the "whys". At least I hope they can.<p>Best of luck and God Bless.<p>Jo

Be careful to avoid the pitfall of assuming that you're meeting your wife's needs. Just because you may think you are doesn't mean that you are to her.

I can't help but respond to your post. I agree with Alberta 100%. What I hear you saying is when you are "there" with her, she wanted you. But on the night that you made your statement of "I'm available", doesn't tell me much more that you only were making yourself available for something you were interested in. TV and sex. And don't get me wrong... what you did all week sounded incredible. It does sound like, that night you were interested to be attentive to her for that specific reason. Everyone hears lots about the big nasty word "masturbation" in society. And what I have learned, is that masturbation is normal. It does not make you a freak. It does not mean that you do not want the love of another human being. Masturbation is what she says. It is about getting to know her self, her body, how to feel all those feelings by herself. I don't think that your wife did it to hurt you in anyway. But if you would have got off the couch, shut the TV off and climbed into bed with her, the desire she had to touch herself may have been shared by both of you. Who know? You can't say what if. Please go easy on yourself and your wife. If she did not want you, you would not have seen any action from her AT ALL. Even if you did all those nice things. Try to explore this with her. Perhaps she will let you watch sometime, and you do the same with her...that is, if you masterbate. You would be surprised on how close this can bring two people. Just my opinion.

I think that is the heart of the problem. It's not something we 'share'. I am more than willing yet she is not.<p>That makes it a problem. She only does this alone. She is not willing to share it with me on occassion at all. I don't mind her doing it - when I'm not available or the odd time when it's 'just for her' - as long as she is also WILLING to share this 'personal journey' with me on occassion. I hate being 'separated' from her in this way... just like her affair - she is thinking about 'her' and not 'us'. I need to feel like I am 'providing' what she needs. Like I can be a part of that. I know she needs time for her, but she should also be willing to find a way to include me 'now and then'.<p>What is the difference between her having a PA (only) with another man as compared to her doing this by herself without letting me be a part of it if I'm willing?

You obviously find out somehow that she has done this.... I don't know how. Maybe she tells you. When you talk to her about what she has done, this is what you could say....smiling big.... "Hon, that's great!" "Isn't it an incredible feeling?" "I am so happy that you can please yourself" (Do you know how many woman CAN'T?)<p>This subject/act IS the hardest hardest hardest.. (you get the point...) act to share with someone. Even when the person isyour spouse.<p>... changing the subject for a minute.... I would be tempted to start a posting with this...'WHO HERE HAS SHARED MASTURBATION WITH THEIR SPOUSE?"<p>Your kind words are going to make her KNOW that you truly do have an honest interest in getting to know HER... and even that part about her. And that you accept it. Don't let the frequency of how often she does it be a focal point. Let it be the window that opens up the forum for you to LET HER know that it is OK. Have you ever thought about telling her how it feels for you? And how good it makes you feel? And I am sure that if it does feel good for you, and you share that with her, you are giving her a gift without saying anything a word... with a big smile...... "That's OK". I think she may have enough nerve to tell you what she has done, but still feels some resistance from you as to when she does it and how often. You cannot chose that for her.<p>And for comparing it to the OM. It is what I said before. She is getting to know herself. She is NOT wanting the OM. I am the WS, and I can totally appreciate what your wife is doing. Let her discover herself... that is one reason why we get lost..... losing touch with who we are. This may be pushing it for you, but maybe you could go out shopping for her. On your own, and buy her a new friend (BOB). That will send a signal to her that you approve, so only do it IF you approve. But then you can say... X days down the road.....with a smile..."So...." <p>Be soft, be gentle.... and good luck.

I think BMWM has stuff pretty good.<p>Here I am for the 2nd time today getting graphic, and I apologize.<p>Ok, I know that this is something that is a bad thing to bring up, and I don't want to start trouble where there is enough already.<p>In the beginning years of our marriage he couldn't get me there. I told him he did, because not only did he think I did, but he needed me to tell him he could.<p>This doesn't mean your wife isn't enjoying the sexual time you share, or that something is wrong with you in any way, but maybe she truly isn't getting there, and just felt like taking care of it herself quickly.<p>I had Bob around so if I didn't get there through no fault of his, I just wasn't really good at knowing what to do to get there, I could finish the job and nobodys feelings got hurt.<p>Just like guys, women sometimes do it to get a little stress off their minds and get to sleep.<p>It could be that she is trying to explore what it takes to get her there, and then she can use that information for more mutually pleasurable experiences with you.<p>Sometimes I would do it just because the whole having sex with him thing got to be a project. Not that I am cold or anything, but sometimes it just was a huge effort. If I can do it in 97 seconds and fall right asleep, why should I go downstairs and get you, make sure all your sexual needs are met so I can get a quick little O, then there is the wet spot, the sweat, the gooey mess, you know, all the things that go along with having sex with another person.<p>I guess what I am trying to say is that from my point of view I hope you don't put much more effort into worrying about this.<p>When we were married I would do it, we aren't married and I do it, people do it all the time. Yes, there is a time when you do it too much, but that is not what I am talking about here.<p>If we could take an honest poll of women - I mean truly honest - I'm betting that you would be quite suprized at how many of us enjoy bob by ourselves once in a while, and how often that once in a while truly is.<p>Being totally honest and giving you WAY too much information, I had bob about 2 times a month when we were married. Since he moved out (Nov 16) I brought bob out of the closet 2 maybe 3 times.<p>Relax. Everyone can call me a perv now, but I bet that I am about normal. Totally normal.<p>At least I hope so.<p>Elizabeth

LOL<p>... JusttheWife, you are not alone. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

[img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Okay, you know that this is a trigger for me. I tried to stay away, but there are some things that are bothering me about this. I guess that these things would be more directed at the WW's than the BW's. All in all it comes down to being the same.<p>Other than the recent true revelation, that my W and the OM are still F*******, as he so nicely screamed it into the receiver as I was on the telephone with my wife last Friday night trying to find out when she and I were going to meet between cities.<p>I learned that they are using 'hot sauce' the 'wet' substance that gets hot when you blow on it. I've seen a BOB at her house also, as well as a jar of jelly always nearby, for the baby, right?. Mind you, that we have used lots of things before, but new things and their use while they are with the OM, would be quite disturbing for me. <p>Back to sjustinen. SO was this an activity that his W took part in with the OM? What and how do you handle activities of your WS in the bedroom that the OM and her practiced? What about those triggers that come home and we don't know but suspect? By all means, I'm not in recovery, or even having SF with my W 4 times a week, but in the future, for reference?<p>If my WW came home to recovery and she wanted SF 'this way' or 'that way' using 'this item here and that sauce there', how are we, BH, suppose to handle that when meeting their needs for SF. If we don't meet those needs, as big of triggers that they are, then BOB comes along, as would porn if the roles were reversed, IMO.<p>Shouldn't the 'sex' between husband and wife in recovery be in its simplist form? I would think that lingerie, toys, and potions would be triggers. At least until we know that the WS is out of withdrawal... what do you think?

I understand you explanation .. but if my H said "if you want me tonight let me know...." and went back to watching TV, it would be a huge turn off. I don’t care if we’d spent hours together and had sex twice daily. I, and most women, want to be romanced and seduced. <p>You gave us a great list of things you did during the week. Said that you met her EN’s. Have you asked her if you meet her EN’s? Have you and she done the EN questionnaire?<p>What I see in your posts is that you are very angry at you wife. <p>You got angry at her for what she did while you were at your friends house. How does that harm you in any way? If you can find a place to come from that is not angry, she will be more receptive to you.<p>You may want to check out the book Divorce Busting. It augments MB very well. One of the central themes of DB is if it’s not working stop doing it. Try something else. They have a lot of approach suggestions. This might help you.<p>And yes… you were throwing the affair in her face. Be kinder, more gentle.

Well, my wife and I had a good discussion last night. We made some compromises and worked out 'issues' at the heart of the matter. Turns out that my problem with what she was doing was strictly due to my 'insecurities' and need for appreciation and felt that I wasn't appreciated if she used BoB. After a long talk, I realized that was not the case. She said that she has felt so sexually isolated over the years doing what 'I wanted'. She said she O's with me everytime, but that she wants to discover other ways for her to feel good. She is on a self-discovery that will only make sexual relations between us better. After my calmly raising my concerns/feelings about it and her truly listening to me - and then me doing the same for her, we were able to come to an agreement that is mutually acceptable for both of us. She will not 'hide' it from me, but rather will be open an honest about 'using it' and will pay extra attention to my need for affection/appreciation in other ways to compensate for my insecurities right now. I will not bother her about it anymore or 'pry' into her private time. She also said that once she is more 'comfortable' letting me into her 'private life' (trust) that we may end up one day being able to share the experience. I didn't realize that she felt afraid of sharing her private thoughts/feelings with me for fear that I may use them against her in an arguement.<p>Our counselling session went really well. We are working on communication and have been successfully using the 'timeout' approach for the last week when the discussions get heated. After the session last night we discussed a number of 'outstanding' issues that we BOTH had and through effective communication we able to come to many agreements that we are both very happy with. It feels really good.<p>Now it's time to heal. For her, and for me. I need to work on rebuilding my trust with her and giving her a life back (not 'locking' her up in the house). I am going to work on forgiveness for her for the affair and try now to truly put it behind us and move on. She is going to do the same with the pain that I have caused her in the past. We are both going to work on 'being nice' to each other when talking about difficult issues and focus on a mutually agreed upon compromise for any issues that we're having. I think the best way to achieve this is slowly and paying extra attention not to 'repeat' the problems that we are working on. We don't need any more problems.<p>My wife's biggest issue is her space. She wants to be 'two individuals' that are married. She wants 'her' life and for me to have 'my' life. Two separate lives that are together to pick each other up if one falls.<p>I have a difficult time with that, but it sounds like it could be nice for both of us. Working on ourselves while being together to help. She needs to rediscover herself and I need to rediscover myself. Then we can focus on rediscovering 'us'.<p>It was a good night, and the future is exciting, albiet scarey.<p>My WW gave me a card a few weeks ago that really represents us well. It's two kids, a boy and a girl about 5-8yrs old sitting on a beach looking out at the ocean. My wife wrote in it "This is us, with the pain of the world behind us and an ocean of uncertainty ahead.. And us sitting on the beach ready to jump in."<p>That's how I feel. We are ready now to jump in, it's time to swim our hearts out or drown. Personally, I hope we both help each other across.

Well, sounds like you hit a very good cross roads. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

sjustinen,<p>I see you all worked through this, but I'm going to share my perspective anyway because I don't think any of the previous postings covered it completely. If this had happened in my home, the statement "if you want me tonight, let me know" itself could have prompted my solo bedroom scene. I would have "listened" to your actions and concluded that you were NOT willing because you didn't haul your a$$ to bed to be with me. And I might have done it to affirm my desirability to myself since my H wasn't conveying that to me.<p>I also think that there might be a performance anxiety thing going on as well. Sometimes men are so into MAKING their W have an orgasm that it can come across as a selfish thing to the W; masquerading as pleasuring her when he's really pleasuring himself by proving to himself his sexual prowess. Sometimes it's hard to enjoy what's happening when you feel pressured to get to the goal line.<p>My H is the only man I've been able to pleasure myself in front of, and here's how we got there:<p>When we were making love and he was pleasuring me, he would look directly into my eyes, especially when I was orgasming, and tell me how beautiful I was when that was happening. He would ask me to look into his eyes when it was happening. I became more and more comfortable watching him watch me when I was aroused and when I was climaxing.<p>He told me how much it would turn him on to watch me and early on would gently put my hand there with his over it to help me get more comfortable with sharing it with him. He would always tell me specifically how it was turning him on and making him feel when I would touch myself.<p>His open and obvious excitement and verbal affirmation of how beautiful I looked to him the more turned on I got and the more I was able to lose my inhibitions and expose myself that way.<p>His attitude was always one of encouragement and validation, so I felt secure opening up that part of myself to him. He was never demanding about it. It was like he knew how much in the inner sanctum he was and was kind of reverent about it.<p>Very intimate. SF has always been our strong suit together. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Any time my H hears about a solo time of mine, he talks about how much it turns him on to think of it and how he wished he had been there to watch. He DOESN'T say, "Why didn't you wait for me?" He acknowledges my sexuality and how much it arouses him, which of course arouses me. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>H2Y,<p>You may want to forge through the accessory or component thing even if it is a trigger. I could tell that some of the stuff going on sexually with my H was remnants of his R with the OW, but the way I dealt with it was to introduce and concentrate on some new stuff of my own.<p>I started doing things I'd thought about, but never had the courage to try. I became the leader and led him to where I was instead of focusing on where he was. I introduced things neither one of us had ever done with anyone before. This helped forge a new unique sexual path that no other partners had ever been on.<p>It may be easier for a BW to do this than a BH because of the aggression aspect of it (at least the way I did it). Being a man, you may need to tread more carefully, but I'd start with taking whatever you think she did with the OM and turn it up a notch. If it was hot lotions, get hotter ones and more flavors and use them on more places. If she used a BOB with OM, I'd get a more DELUXE model with TRIPLE stimulation, or the remote-control panties or whatever the latest thing is.<p>And once you've made your footprints deeper and wider than any OM may have left, start walking in a new direction for both of you. Look into each other's eyes when you climax. If you haven't done a lot of talking during sex, start doing it. Try things each of you were afraid to try in the past. Explore. Experiment. Enjoy. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]