<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now I KNOW it probably is not the physical that is troubling her, but that is how she chooses to complain, so that is what I respond to (when I respond, mostly I keep my mouth shut, but lately she has been doing this in earshot of the kids and I am about to toss her through a wall, which I do not want to do), so instead I am moving to another house for the time being, maybe that will help reduce the hostilities <hr></blockquote><p>I've been following you and Thinkers posts probably since you came here. I've never seen you so upset. Are you OK??

SNL,<p>I know you posted originally for a different reason. Now, I've been sucked up into this.<p>Please put it in jarhead and explain it to me what you feel about:<p>1. The emotional act of sex
2. The physical act of sex
3. The changes brought home emotionally
4. The changes brought home physically
5. Why a person is less if the physical aspect is very important to them and they focus on the how and then the why
6. Why the person is better if they detach from the physical and focus on the why emotionally not the how physically<p>I wasn't attacking per say. Your not a punching bag here... I just don't understand, apparently.

Dear SNL
I have read a lot of posts from both you and your wife...and they are all just sooo sad and full of pain?? Both of you...<p>Take this post...of course people know that she and you both take what the other one says out of context...we all know that. It is exactly what people do to hurt one another...<p>What is obvious is that you two continue on and on in this place of pain...the lines are drawn in the sand..and no one moves...<p>Thinker is lashing out in anger and pain some things she says are outrageous...but she is screaming for attention from you...and negative is better than none...and withholding and withdrawing is just as non-productive and hurting as confronting....<p>And you are hurt to...but appear to stonewall or cover it up in deep thoughts and musings...which you are entitled to..but neither of you is willing to give an inch to the other...I picture you home so sad some times...<p>I think thinker has been painfully clear in some of her posts about what she wants...go read her responses...and if you can't or won't give to her why stay??? I am not challenging you but asking why hurt yourself and her sooo much more...<p>Look at this post just because you believe that if thinker were to have sex with someone else that it wouldn't bother you...doesn't mean it doesn't bother her....she is your wife..she is telling you to validate her feelings REGARDLESS of how you feel...and you over and over again will not....husband and wives validate each other..even if they don't agree with the emotional response...that's what married people do for eachother... <p>And even if you choose to seperate the sex act and because you believe the problem comes way before that..then do that SNL..deal with the why's then...since you do validate their being THE issue...<p>I don't believe you need to defend yourself or can thinker in the sense we can all see that both of you are so entangled in this web of conflict...<p>I know for a fact I could make my spouse sound nuttier than a fruit cake using actual things he has said..Or I have said in the past...<p>Peace to your home SNL...peace to you and thinker...
ARK

SnL, you stirred the pot while I was gone!!! I ran out of time before I could get back to you. I need to go soon today too. Got errands. <p>I think I understand what you are trying to say now. Yet, I think everyone already knows what you are trying to say. Everyone is made very similarly. But emotionally we are different and vulnerable. Many of us have very similar values. But, just because the gas pump and entrance to the tank is made the same, doesn't mean people are. We are made to be compatible. But, exclusive. If we were just compatible physically, and the emotional part is unrelated, then why get married? If you don't care about your wife enough to be faithful to her, then you shouldn't be married. What you are saying, sounds like to me, that if your wife went away on a business trip, you should be able to hire a substitute and that would be okay, as long as you don't get emotionally involved with the sub. Not so. You do without until your wife gets back. You reserve yourself for her. Physically, emotionally. Only God can seperate the emotional from the spiritual, the joints from the marrow. Not you and not anyone else. Get off your high horse and face the music, cowboy. Your argument don't fly, because you agree with every truth brought against it and still hang on to it. Let it go, cause it's wrong. God says it's wrong, you agree with God, I say it's wrong, and everyone responding to you here says it's wrong. Your argument is whittled to a stump, and it's no longer worth holding on to.<p>I have a couple of edits. Insert where applicable. <p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Guys often get hung up on the fact there wife was sexual with another man, and don't even much care about the reasons it happened, just that it did....this is essentially a property mentality, my spouse is MINE and so forth, but they don't much care about how much she was touched before marriage, so what is the problem....<hr></blockquote><p>Talk of a "property mentality" sounds to me like falling for femicrap, which is deliberately contrived to discount men's legitimate needs and feelings.<p>We ignore biology at our peril. I'm astonished that nobody in this thread has really put front and center the fact that it's women who have babies. Is this too obvious to mention, or what? Among other things, a marriage is a contract that makes available to a man, in return for services rendered, the crucial capability to reproduce himself. This is something he might not get any other way. At least, not so that he can be sure that any offspring born is his own. And he can only be sure of that if his wife is faithful to him.<p>We all have to die some day. Biologically, our children are the only chance of immortality we're ever going to get. If a man's wife conspires with another man to be unfaithful to her husband, there's a chance that the husband is going to be swindled into wasting years of his valuable labor and other resources feeding and raising the offspring of some competitor, not his own. This loss of potential immortality is close to murder in a way. No wonder men are disconcerted by the risk or suggestion of their wives being unfaithful.<p>I realize individuals differ widely, that there are "social" influences on all this behavior, that some individuals may choose to adopt children, or not have any; that some men actually get excited to see their wives being sexual with another man, that sometimes pregnancy isn't an issue, while other things like STDs are, and so on. Humans are infinitely variable. But we still can't get away from underlying biological instincts, which will always color our feelings and our behavior. We can't expect men to stop getting upset any time soon about the fear of their wives straying, or pretend the effects can be ignored. Even in situations where the instinct is meaningless, it's still there.<p>Women never in practice have to worry about whether a child is theirs or not. Mater semper certes est. We can never say the same about the father. Not before DNA testing anyway, and even then it's too late. Biologically however, women must still concern themselves with whether they're going to get support to help raise their offspring, who are otherwise at risk for survival. So a woman does have to worry about a man being "faithful" in the sense of not being seduced into abandoning her. A man's "emotional affair" is something to guard against. It's natural for almost anyone, man or woman, to worry about infidelity; but it does seem there are some women who, unlike men, don't worry as much about their partner's infidelity as long as it's "only sexual," and even boast about what a "big stud" their man is. Reproductively they may have far less to lose by it.<p>Sure, there are STDs, and all kinds of emotional and social concerns. Humans are complicated all right. Still, if a partner is unfaithful, there may well be an instinct to recoil from that person, on the grounds that they're "not reliable" as a reproductive partner, and one's personal resources might be better reinvested in a person who is. Those biological instincts are always there underneath, especially when it comes to reproduction.

Couldn't make it through the whole thread, so if someone else has already, well then, good for them.<p>
SNL, don't be such an A$$. It's about the BETRAYAL, not necessarily the sex.<p>This isn't a very nice thing to say, but it's really how I feel right now. SNL, I truly hope that you're betrayed in the depth that you've hurt your wife. Only then will you have ANY FREAKING CLUE what people are trying to hammer into your thick skull!<p>End of flame-

I agree with your analysis eddy, that is the reason for male reactions.....BUT I am not saying that it makes no sense....my only point is it is only biology, if you can't get past your instictual response, that is a personal problem for the man, he has to deal with it. But his unfaithful wife is the same person physically after an affair as she was before....so the notion of tainted goods is untenable, it has no reality, and only exists in someones mind....it is illogical. We are "told" here (and elsewhere) that love is a decision, and not to listen to illogical emotions (the I am not "in-love" with you thing)....ok, fair enough...then should be no problem just "decideing" your w (or h) is not tainted goods, and forget it...right? One cannot pick and choose, if love and relationships are only about decisions, than that applies to all of it, including decideing not to love (and being unconcerned about your spouse reaction, cause they just decide the same).....right? If one does not agree with this, then one cannot use decideing to love as an argument for staying in a marriage.

kevco, if you were not so focused on flaming, and read the posts, you would have observed all (including me) are well aware of the emotional issues of an affair...the narrow point here, is that the sex is just biology, and the person unchanged....they are not tainted goods in a physical sense, so berateing them thusly is nonsensical....

h4f, hmm, you seem to have gotten completely off track with my position, we must be having some kind of a communication failure [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>h4f... We are made to be compatible. But, exclusive. If we were just compatible physically, and the emotional part is unrelated, then why get married? <p>snl...yeah, no problem here.<p>h4f...If you don't care about your wife enough to be faithful to her, then you shouldn't be married. <p>snl...whoa, you think I promote unfaithfullness? Why?<p>h4f...What you are saying, sounds like to me, that if your wife went away on a business trip, you should be able to hire a substitute and that would be okay, as long as you don't get emotionally involved with the sub.<p>snl....Flabbergasted look....You THINK I said THAT?<p>h4f...You reserve yourself for her. <p>snl...absdolutely.<p>h4f...Get off your high horse and face the music, cowboy. <p>snl....Lots of music around here, mostly classical cacophony.... and I face it, beleive me, in fact my face is pretty much gone, body cast soon to follow.<p>h4f...Your argument don't fly, because you agree with every truth brought against it and still hang on to it. <p>snl...I think you are seeing some truth I am unaware of [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>h4f...Let it go, cause it's wrong. God says it's wrong, you agree with God, I say it's wrong, and everyone responding to you here says it's wrong. Your argument is whittled to a stump, and it's no longer worth holding on to.<p>snl...Just for you, whatever it is I am holding on to, consider it gone. Infidelity is wrong, no argument here.

try to get rest of you later...I think the point I originally posted for has been made, and quickly lost in the morphing of another interest, and that has been fully aired (not that there was much to it anyways), of minor usefullness...no need for anyone else to be repetitive, but if you have a truly different contribution, go for it, otherwise just let er die plz.

Sure it's illogical, SnL, and much of the way our bodies and our minds work is "illogical" anyway--at least in the sense that we can't just "will ourselves" to do certain things. Not directly anyway. We can't will ourselves to "feel something." If somebody's feeling sad, we can't just tell them to "feel happy"--or ourselves either. We can't will ourselves to "believe something." We can't just tell someone "Believe the sky is green" when it's actually blue. We can't even will ourselves to have an erection--at least, not in the same voluntary manner that we can raise and lower our arm.<p>But we can certainly choose to do something, or to look at something, or to think about something, or to get someone else to do something, that will (usually) cause us to have an erection. And if we can't will ourselves to "feel happy," we can often decide to think about something that makes us feel happier, or to search for something that gives us hope, or to engage in some activity that takes our mind off whatever we're feeling sad about and lifts our mood. Our thoughts influence our feelings. Our actions influence our feelings. Other people's actions influence our feelings, and we can often get their cooperation in doing that. And if we can't "believe the sky is green," if we stare at pictures of a green sky long enough and often enough, or maybe tint the tops of our windows green, even a green sky will start looking more natural after a while.<p>What we can't do directly we can often do indirectly. If we go to bed at midnight, maybe we can't wake up at four in the morning, however much we want to. We can't just "decide" to wake up when we're in a state of deep sleep. That's about biology too. But we can decide to set a loud alarm clock before we go to sleep. Or we can ask someone else who will be awake to wake us up at 4:00. And with practice we can train ourselves to wake up regularly around 4:00, even if we used to wake up at 7:00.<p>So if somebody says "love is a decision," it's true in a way, but it's really a kind of shorthand. We can decide to do "loving" things. But we can only "decide" to feel in love in the same roundabout sense that we might "decide" to have an erection, or to wake up at four in the morning--to whatever extent any of these is possible. That doesn't mean they're impossible either, if we go about it the right way. I prefer to say "love is something we make."

Could someone please make something clear for me? Did SNL have an affair? I thought he had, and yet all he does on this and other threads is make these lame excuses. Has he taken responsibility and tried to work on the marriage. I know if I was hearing all this crap about an affair I would be long gone. I see no remorse for hurting your spouse. I do not understand why this marriage is continuing. You are not interested in a healthy relationship!

SnL, I wrote a six-page Word document for you. But, as I was washing dishes, I thought that it may not be the right response. I think you need to wrestle with God on this issue. I believe the Bible is crystal clear, and you allow intellectual word games muddy the water of truth. That is my opinion. I also think that Satan may hold you captive there. I would like to suggest a book. I've been recommending it all over the place. "Wild At Heart" by John Eldredge. It's intellectual. Although, he relies heavily on movies, I think he's onto something. If you read it, let me know what you think. I am going to pray for you and thinker. Perhaps you have dealt with the issues. But, have you dealt on her terms? It doesn't seem like it. You know, you are the offending party. It seems like you should apologize for hurting her. Don't withhold a little bit, because you think there is no consequence in it. Even if you were right, it would still be better for you to apologize for putting her at risk physically and saying you know she was hurt in that way, and you are sorry for hurting her there. Now, if she chooses not to forgive, that is her choice, but you have nothing to defend in this area. And, it may be your defense that keeps her from forgiving. I don't know. Does that help. I know what I told her seemed to bash you, and yeah, it did. I was trying to validate her feelings for wanting to leave. That is still her choice, and I do believe like so many others that your position on the physical aspect of an affair is wrong. I've given you scripture. There may be other ways God chooses to reveal it to you. But, what I have given you doesn't mince words. It's in black and white. Accept it or reject it; it's up to you. <p>Take care, SnL. I hope soon you are Happy_and_Satisfied, whatever happens.<p>Prayers,<p>H4F

Hmmmm, so this whole biology thing...is this part of the sex education for your daughters?
T

uhhhhhhhhh. Please correct me if I am wrong. But............<p>"SNL, don't be such an A$$. It's about the BETRAYAL, not necessarily the sex."<p>THAT is what he said in the first post on this thread. That the SEX is incidental compared to the emotional betrayal. How can this go so WRONG??? <p>Everyone seems to be preaching to the choir. <p>PLEASE let me know what it is that I am not understanding here. I am serious. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

h4f, I have apologized to her, many times, and I am sorry, she knows it cause I never say anything I don't mean, she is angry cause I am not remorseful or guilty in the abject sense a ws sometimes is...I never will be, those behaviours do not compute, they are nonsensical...and if I (and I have tried just to do it for her sake) tell her I am remorseful etc, she blows it off and says you don't really mean it...and she is right. (BTW I posted a longish post about this issue on resilents thread on another board about being freinds or something with ex). <p>Re the relgious stuff, I have wrestled with it a great deal, and am content with how I have come to understand the issue...won't start another debate here but will mention a couple things....one is we have to each interpret God's word and his plan for ourselves, certainly referring to the Bible as an authority...much of what I thought and read about these issues I have come to understand is the personal agenda of various writers...God has no objection to divorce per se...but He provides a lot of guidance on what male/female bonding is, and how it looks like...and that if it is not like that, you are not married, you are cohabitating...we cannot impose our will on God by simply going down to the courthouse and getting a marriage license or taking a vow...that does not make you oneflesh. If in our freewill we violate God's plan for us (and most do re marriage because of ignorance and youthful lust) there are consequences, and one is marital disharmony, and lack of bonding. <p>aecond when well-meaning people give spiritual advice to do God's will, they are not usually being honest, they usually mean restoring the particular relationship you are in, they are pre-selecting the outcome and trying to manipulate with religion....God's will may be for the marriage to end, He may have other plans for both parties, and being receptive to God's will includes that outcome too, otherwise we are just "using" God. I have given all this to God long ago, and as much as any of us can, am trying to see His will for me..... actually gave me a lot of peace, felt like a boulder had been lifted off my back as I wrestled to try and "fix" everything and everybody involved...w, ow, me, kids, ow family etc.... I let the ow go emotionally and focused on finding out what is real in my marriage, and let the future be in God's hands. What is wrong is trying to maintain two intimate relationships, or trying to trade one person for another, or trying to keep one (w or ow) on the shelf, or trying to pull someone from a marriage (something neither ow or I ever did at all, we just wanted to be freinds and supportive of each other)... we did none of those things. The diversion of focus and emotional resources indeed impacted two marriages, and that is as it should be IMO, the marriages were both essentially dead and had been for years...now they are both being looked at, and resolution will be achieved one way or another, that is not a bad thing, and would not have happened without a serious crisis.....people blame affairs for ending marriages, that is blame shifting, marriages end cause they are not working, no one can end another persons marriage, we have free will, and live in a free country, a marriage ends cause one (of both) no longer want to maintain an intimate relationship.....period.

SNL said "people blame affairs for ending marriages, that is blame shifting, marriages end cause they are not working, no one can end another persons marriage, we have free will, and live in a free country, a marriage ends cause one (of both) no longer want to maintain an intimate relationship.....period."<p>For all of your BIOLOGY mumbo-jumbo, how can you say MARRIAGES END CAUSE THEY ARE NOT WORKING and not realize what an idiotic statement that is. How does a marriage fail 2 people? No honey, 1 or both people FAIL the marriage...PERIOD. You yourself are BLAME SHIFTING...then u go on to say, "1 or both no longer want to maintain an intimate relationship".....gee, most WS including you weren't taking any steps to leave the marriage or make it better, until the OP comes along. For months we have been given your biology insight as to why cheating and walking away from a marriage is a healthy way of life, so we should all just move on for the sake of BIOLOGY. And yet for months you get the same reply or should I say question WHY ARE YOU HEAR? You will never get the answer that you so desperately want to hear. What pisses me off about you is that you give other's the opinion that if it is an abusive relationship then get out, if you are being mentally raked over the coals then leave, but you never seem to understand or look in the mirror and see that YOU YOURSELF are emotionally abusing your wife.

tt4g...I am not abusing anyone, I meet none of the tests for abuse, if my mere existence, or need to understand myself is intolerable that is a fit issue, not an abuse issue....if my temperament is not one to give the emotional support my w needs that is not abuse either, that is also a fit issue. The mere fact that I do not want to continue in an intimate relationship with thinker seems to constitute abuse in her mind, and many of yours....if I cannot freely choose how to live my life...what am I? Property?<p>btw..I do not know what all that rant about biology was, I don't have any of the positions you referenced, maybe you have me confused with someone else....the biology reference is explained in the first post on this thead, I woul appreciate it if you would review that....My essential position on marriage is that the marriage is unimportant, and maintaining it as the focus is not healthy....what should be the focus is the mental/emotional/psychological health of the two people, and the marriage will take care of itself, or end, depending on what is best for them....not sacrificing themselves to maintain the marital picture.<p>Yes I made the same vows everyone else did, but no one wants anyone to stay in a marriage just out of duty, so the vows don't really apply to anyone....and none of us can promise feelings...so what do you do? Radical honesty requires me to be forthright re my feelings about this intimate relationship, and no spouse wants to "make" a spouse remain married to them....marriages end when one partner can no longer hold up their end, that means does not want to be in it too (among many other reasons that could apply, such as all the flavors of abuse, neglect, personality disorders etc.). The problem seems to be many people just cannot accept the notion of a marriage ending without their being someone/something to blame...they refuse to accept the notion people often just do not fit well enough to be each others safe,healthy,nurturing place...it is that simple.<p>In my case this was true before the affair (was not a safe,healthy,nurturing place) and is still true, the affair has nothing to do with it...if anything it led to an intense look at the marital issues (such as MB, etc.) something that we may have never done, and simply divorced instead.... <p>I know now part of the reason I upset some is that one school of thought is a marriage should never end unless some acceptable level of abuse/neglect is present, I do not beleive that...I think a marriage should end when it is not a safe,healthy,nurturing place, and that each of us decides for ourselves what that means....just like we do with everything else in MB...your spouse decides what is lovebusting behaviour not you....right? Same principle....\\<p>btw...I have no idea where you got the references to biology as my arguments re marriage, perhaps you have me mixed up with someone else... where that came from is explained in the first post of this thread. As for my position on marriage, it is that marriage is not a thing, and is not important in itself, and you do not try to save or fix a marriage...what is important is the mental/emotional/psychological well-being of the two people, and that is where the focus should be, on whether they are safe.healthy.nurturing,joyous place for each other, and if not marriage may not be the best living cirumstance for them...I object to the notion of changing people to make them fit the marriage, with no concern re whether these changes are healthy for them, just assuming the marriage will be what they need....is nonsensical... It is about meeting needs, but it is also about wanting to meet needs (and wanting someone to meet your needs)...as well as ones capacity to do that...and that is not addressed enough. The assumption is anyone can do this (meet needs)...but that is not true...how many here would want snl meeting their needs, even if he did a great job? Likewise many people who post here I would not let meet my needs, I know they cannot do it the way I want, no matter how hard they try, or motivated they are....is this mean someone is defective..no, it just means they do not fit well....and if in ignorance of youth, that was overlooked, and we married, we would have the same problem now...so what do you do about it.... just accept it? That IMO is part of the MB problem, it holds out the promise that if you just do it, your marriage will be terrific, yet we know we don't want just anyone meeting our needs...so how can that be? If it is true all you who chastise me should make a great couple with me, long as we meet the laundary list of needs, but I suspect many of you would say no way Jose...and if we were allready married (before you really got to know me)...what then?<p>[ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>