ill try to be brief. we went to st. petes beach for 4 days. weather was wonderfull and i loved the beaches.<p>now for the update:<p>sunday nite- i found out that my wh purposely kept something from me that he didnt think was a big deal and i found out. needless to say i was upset. we didnt talk all nite. got up at 2 in the morning to catch plane.<p>monday-after no talking on flight we get to the hotel. check in and have a beautiful suite. the place is amazing. we get changed and go to lunch. still no talking. so i decide to ask if he understood whi i was so upset. he honestly didnt understand that i could be mad at him for keeping this from me. i tried to explain i didnt care what it was-it was the fact that he purposely kept something from me. he made a conscious choice. he got mad and quiet and the conversation was over. we then went to the beach and after a little while of him ignoring me i asked about it again. he just said that we seem to look at things differently. i wanted to say-yeah, like our wedding vows! but i didnt. i then realized that he is not getting any of this and will probably never put me and my feelings first. i walk away and go down the beach about 1/2 mile and sit and cry for 1 1/2 hours. i realize while im sitting there that i dont deserve this and should not settle. he does not want to chang-he wants his needs met but will not meet mine. i come to the decision that im done. i gotta tell you it was like someone took that 1000 lb. weight off of me. i for the first time in a long time was truelly o.k. i went back knowing i will be fine and when we get home i will ask him to leave. i felt great. calm for the first time. i also decided i was done with all this so just enjoy, and thats what i did. we had a wonderfull dinner and evening.<p>tues.- wh goes deep sea fishing so i have the whole day to myself. i sit on beach drinking colada's and reading my book. i didnt think about all this once. felt incredible!
he comes back and joins me on beach for a while and we go to a beach bbq party for dinner. it was great-dinner, dancing, general partying. had a wonderfull time- untill he ask's me to go for a walk. we go sit and he ask's me whats wrong. i told him nothing im having a wonderfull time. (i was) he then brings up the lie conversation again and says he wishes things were the way they were before sunday-him having me jump through hoops to meet his needs. he talkes about how happy we were. i couldnt believe it-happy? my heart is destroyed, i will never be the same or trust anyone, i have post traumatic stress and am on anti-d's and he thought i was happy. plus having none of my needs met. i calmly ask why did you think i was happy? what would make you think that? he looks me right in the eyes and says-"WELL I CHOSE YOU, DIDNT I ? i wanted to vomit. who the heck is this ego maniac im married to? needless to say i lost it big time. everything came out. i wanted to kill him. <p>so we eventually go back to room and he lies down on bed. well im not done, i start again, calmly, to let him know what i need and why is it so difficult to think of me? he goes on to say he doesnt understand any of this and honestly thought we were ok. kept saying" i must just be stupid." well hes not a stupid man, not by a long shot. i told him i would be willing to try again, only if things would be different. i asked him point blank what he would do different? he only said that we would discuss it when we got home.<p>wed- went to yankee, rangers game and had a ball. i know i will be ok with or without him so im gonna have fun. met a bunch of players got autographs and all that. that nite we had a dinner with don mattingly. he is a cutie. i had a great time. went to bed<p>thurs. we leave tonight so we spent the day on the beach again, coladas and all. great day. get ready and come home. he is tired and cranky when we get home so we go to bed.<p>well its friday and i cant wait to see how long it takes him to approach this now. im guessing never. the upside is i know i will be ok. i really feel fine with it. he is either gonna try or not- i cant make him. i can only control the way i deal with it. so lets see. i am printing a few things from here to give him a clue-like how does a ws take responsibilty, and rebuilding trust. should i give them to him or just let him do his own work on this?

Applause! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I think you handled things great. As for printing things for him, this is my thought. Let him know about the site, if he doesn't already, and offer him some reading material that you think might help shed some light on things from your perspective. Leave it to him to take them and read them. This way you aren't open to "offending" him or anything. Also mention that it might help him understand many different insights that would be productive to rebuilding if he actually visited the board and maybe read some others. This way, it's up to him. You have done so much, and I have to say he is being selfish and should own his part now. I say this a a WS. It's not easy nor is it any fun to own our part and feel your pain, but it must be done. I'll tell you what though, I for one believe it is well worth it.<p>Good luck to you. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

dear tutter- thanks for the reply. i just printed the 16 pages on responsibility. if he wants a clue ill give it to him. i no longer feel i can be the only one in recovery. if he is this egotistical and selfish- then he is a free man. it up to him know. i think the best of all this is how strong i truelly am. thanks

any other thoughts out there?

Hi nikko I'd like to give you an opinion but I don't know your history. Can you point me to your story?

I think this may be a good place for you to be. I went through the same thing back in January when I finally asked my H if he was going to help me recover from his A or not. When he started giving me more fog and excuses and accusations, I asked him to move out. He refused. I told him I'd have no problem filing and getting a court order for him to vacate.<p>I told him I was not going to continue as we had, that I would only get on the road to marital recovery if he was right there with me, or I'd take the road of separation and personal recovery and work on getting over him.<p>But I was definitely getting on one road or the other because I had made up my mind that I was not going to continue hemorrhaging from my broken heart, that my primary goal is to heal and that I will do whatever it takes to do that. The only choice he had in it was whether my heart healed with him in it or him outside of it. I personally did not care anymore.<p>Well, he chose recovery rather than separation, and he did pretty well with some unprecedented changes for a few days, but he has backslidden on some things. He has remained consistent with the respect issue so far, but he still is not dealing with the A.<p>I attempted the first week after my attempted Plan B to get him involved in the A processing and healing stuff, but it soon became clear that he was still in major denial and not in any position to help me, so I just stopped and the A hasn't been brought up since by either one of us.<p>I would leave all the MB stuff alone for now unless your H asks.<p>I feel like my H is making a choice every day that he doesn't deal with his A. I told him I am going to pursue my personal recovery regardless, but each day that he chooses not to engage me in a dialog about his A and all the unanswered questions and discrepancies about the A and contact after D-day and all that, is a day my heart heals with him on the outside. Each time he reveals his lack of insight about his betrayal is another stitch in sewing my heart back up with him on the outside.<p>Anyway, I've found that the more I detach, the better I feel. I haven't cried in quite a while now, maybe 3 weeks or more. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] The only thing I struggle with is whether I should remind him that nothing's changed for me since January in that I'm still waiting for what I need. But this is a theme of our M that I've covered many times before, that no amount of meeting my other needs will make up for the lack of meeting the most important one, that right now being the A stuff.<p>So, if you just keep going about your own business and enjoying life as best you can, you will start feeling better no matter what your H does or doesn't do.

dear tiny- i have no idea how to do that so here is a brief-very brief history. we obviously became emotionally detached over the years.no needs being met either way. my oldest son is from previous marriage. wh and he have never bonded. wh never truelly put in the time. i asked for counseling numerous times-no avail. we have a child together. there is 6 yrs between both boys. he is a totally different person to our youngest son. anyway-in sept.or oct. of 2001 he started an ea with a co-worker. in nov. it went pa. lots of lies and all the rest. he told me in an arguement on dec. 9th. he took her to co. x-mas party the nite before. they spent the nite. supposedly that was the last time. i found out in jan. that they were still in contact-talking. after all they were friends first. gotta love that one! anyway all you know what broke loose and it all ended in jan. supposedly. his boss-one of our best friends had the women moved to another location. he now has no day to day contact with her at work. this is the general gist of it all. you can probably guess all the BS in the middle. problem is husband is emotionally retarded-counselours words not min- he stopped counseling and thinks because all HIS needs are being met all is well. boy did he get a surprise on vacation. if you have questions please ask ill try to fill in any holes.<p>conquerer- thanks for the reply. i just couldnt keep my mouth shut any longer. especially after the I CHOSE YOU COMMENT. I REALLY WANTED TO SLAP HIM. i guess i dont know how lucky i am to have all this. anyway i do feel at peace and good about where i am. thanks

Yeah, that "I chose you" is kind of along the lines of "I married you, didn't I?" He chose me back when we got married, too, so all that means to me is that he chose me to do this horrendous thing to. What is he choosing me for this time?<p>The latest one I've heard along those lines is "Well, I'm trying!" Trying to pretend like it never happened and hoping I'll forget about it?<p>Oh well, when you lose it like that, you just regroup and decide what to do next. Probably a good idea to apologize for anything said or done that was inappropriate and an LB, but I think it is okay to share your feelings, like "When I heard that, I just wanted to slap you I was so angry about it."

conqueror- doesnt it kill you, the stuff they say. i really didnt love bust-i just calmly let him know that he needs to step up. im done rowing this boat alone. it amazes me how he runs a big business and can be this...i want to say dumb, but that wouldnt be nice...oblivious. thats a good word, ill go with that. well i always in my mind had a deadline-he is fast approaching it.<p>its amazing the peace i finally feal-even my friends notice a difference. only one knows the story.<p>i love the im trying too, he is also trying to forget. its amazing.<p>im glad i have you to talk to tonight-thanks.

Nikko,<p>Sounds like you have reached the acceptance stage. Feels different?!?!? I hear ya......been the same for some crazy reason they think that just because they 'chose us', that is the end of their responsbility. Hm.........still in the fog?!?!? <p>My reaction when I was told that (verbatim by the way - must be out of the WS manual) was the same as yours. Can't say I was impressed in the least and somehow that confused them. H thought I would be over joyed. I was more overjoyed when I told him to go and be happy with himself. <p>Go figure. The point is that you have reached the point where you can feel good about yourself regardless of where he is or will be. That is a big step. <p>Welcome back. <p>L.

hi orchid- glad your on tonigh too. it is a wonderfull feeling. since that moment i feel so free. i also love that it happened on a beautiful beach with the sun and the waves, and the smells and all the beautifull things around me. i havent really thought the thoughts since then. im sure i will still have flashes, but its so different. i hope he does get a clue, but if not, we will be fine. (and i had a wonderful vacation in the process.) how are you doing??

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by nikko:
<strong> it amazes me how he runs a big business and can be this...i want to say dumb, but that wouldnt be nice...oblivious. thats a good word, ill go with that. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I call it purposeful feigned ignorance. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] But it takes me 3 words to describe it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>What I finally started doing was quoting his own words back to him--the things he used to say in response to our out-of-control adolescents when they were using the same tactic.<p>I've also referred to it as the Barbarino syndrome. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (In honor of the Vinnie Barbarino character played by John Travolta on Welcome Back, Kotter. Whenever he'd get caught doing something or be asked to explain something, he'd become instantly ignorant, expostulating, "Wha?" "Wher?") Anybody else remember that?<p>[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Conqueror:
<strong>
I've also referred to it as the Barbarino syndrome. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (In honor of the Vinnie Barbarino character played by John Travolta on Welcome Back, Kotter. Whenever he'd get caught doing something or be asked to explain something, he'd become instantly ignorant, expostulating, "Wha?" "Wher?") Anybody else remember that?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OMG......yes, I certainly do recall Vinnie! That is a great comparison...LOL! I get that "deer in the headlights" look from my hubby. It's sad to say that when women bash men, one of the most frequent statements is that they never grow up. Seems to me that this barb is based on something concrete. It's brutally honest.

hey conqueror- unfortunately i am old enough to remeber that well. it is so true. mine however doesnt go into that mode-i think he really is this clueless-which scares the heck out of me!!!!
anyway he called at 6 pm to tell me he is stuck at work,doesnt know when he'll be home, will call me. normally this would totally tick me off- i can honestly say i dont care, more peace for me. i guess i just expect it-being away for 4 days-he has a lot to catch up on. i just love that this doesnt panick me anymore. i will go on with my nite with or without him.

bump

Dearest Nikko:<p>Hey! I got the, "You should be happy cause you WON!" speech. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Must be a popular chapter featured in the "Neanderthal Husband Handbook".<p>After two years of Recovery, I'm really starting to realize that MEN (in general) REALLY AND TRULY JUST DON'T GET IT!<p>I'm starting to realize that I really do need to give my *lughead* a break. He really does see his "choosing me/marriage" as ME WINNING...he really does think that I SHOULD BE GRATEFUL.<p>And, I'm beginning to realize that, maybe (just maybe) I SHOULD BE GRATEFUL that he didn't give up on me...that he decided to give me a second chance.<p>And, now, two long years later, I'm beginning to wonder why in the world have I been so ignorant myself in so many, many ways? I am long from being "Recovered"...a truth about myself that I have just recently discovered. And, a truth that both saddens and embarrasses me to admit.<p>My H and I (just this past week) have started to read together the "Relationship Rescue" book by Dr. Phil. Towards the back of the book, there is a letter addressed to women readers. I would like to share some of what Dr. Phil writes to women, with you:<p><Dr. Phil, in talking about men>: "This caveman mentality can render us blind to your pain, your loneliness, and your needs. In short, we can be incredibly selfish. Men really do want Betty Crocker in the kitchen and a sex kitten in the bedroom. And we want it all after you get home from work, and all without any expense. We measure you against mom and expect you to put us first, but we haven't a clue how to reciprocate in ways that matter to you. Our egos are fragile, and when the world seems to turn hostile, we do our turtle routine, shut down, pull inside ourselves, and aim the brunt of our frustrations at you. We want your help, but we then criticize and nitpick at you if it is offered, especially if you are right...<p>Please do not be put off by our contradictory "foreign language." Bottom line: we want and need for you to see through our "macho mask." We need you to reach behind it, take our hands, and press them to the warmth of your heart."
---------------------<p>Dearest Nikko: If your H is receptive to being a participant in your marriage, perhaps it would be wise to take his hands and press them to the warmth of your heart. He needs you.<p>I just wish I had realized how much my H REALLY NEEDED me all those many, many months ago.<p>And, UNFORTUNATELY FOR ME, two years of attempting to better meet my H's needs (mixed with periods of detachment/withdrawal)--while admittedly NOT addressing myself and my OWN ISSUES, did NOT help me RESTORE my in-love feelings for my H. I guess I am a Harley failure...huh? I could probably debate why I think the Harley method did not personally work for me, but that would take volumes of writing...as it took me over two years to finally realize that I needed to go in a different direction. I do want to stress that my personal failures are just that: MY FAILURES...and have EVERYTHING to do with me-- and that I am not trying to *blame* anyone, other than myself, for my own personal inadequacies on *getting my marriage right*.<p>Peace to you and your H, Nikko-- may you BOTH get it *right* the first time around! Hugs, ~Marie

I like dr phil life strategies, and I read rr, but threw it away, is a lot of psychobabble and predictable advice. If all men (or even most men) were as dr phil describes, than all women would have to do is gently take the lost little boy by the hand and love em into a healthy, nurturing, safe marital relationship....were it so simple....unfortunately men are nothing like dr phil described, and his advice in that quote nonsensical....the trouble is, it gives false hope to frantic women looking for answers and/or encourages them to waste additional emotional/time resources on a partner who will never meet their needs. (and ditto for men married to dysfunctional women)...people are selfish, manipulative, and messed up psychologically in large numbers....if one is in a marriage that is not safe,nurturing,healthy and joyous, and a reasonable amount of effort doesn't substantially alter that reality....one must decide to live with it as an accomodation, or leave....not retreat into wishful thinking all is really well, just their mate a little misguided.

thanks for the additional input-i think we all have our limits as to what we can endure, i may have reached mine. i love him, but i cannot fix him. it is now sunday morning and i am still waiting for us to talk. when he came home last nite,he just sat and watched tv. no real conversation. i waited an hour and went to bed. we'll see about today. hopefully.

Dearest Nikko:<p>I'm not suggesting that you attempt to *fix* your H-- I'm suggesting that you get yourself *right*. IMHO, if you're waiting around for him to come to you, or for him to *wake up* and act like you think he should act, you may be waiting a long, long time.<p>Dr. Phil advises taking action for yourself-- NOT waiting around for your H to make up his mind. In fact, Dr. Phil (on the Oprah show) last week asked a BS (whose H was fence-sitting) why in the world she would choose to allow her wayward H to "make her decisions" for her (???).<p>Anyway, Nikko, I wasn't suggesting that you could merely "love him" back home. However, I tried what you're trying now...and I don't think that detaching and/or pretending that *things are rosey with you* is the answer either.<p>Honesty-- about what you feel, about what you want-- WITH NO GAMES -- is the best way to go, IMHO.<p>BTW, I think it was good that you laid all your feelings "out on the table" for your H. He needs to be aware of what is going on inside your head and your heart. Your feelings are honest and true and you needed to be heard.<p>I DO UNDERSTAND about not wanting to have to be the one to *do anything*-- about not wanting to go on.<p>But, I also understand that I made some very poor decisions early on in my own RECOVERY and thought perhaps that I may be able to *save you* from some of the mistakes I felt I had made. <p>Again, good luck to you and your H. ~Marie

To SNL: <p>Is it just my imagination, or do you always "suck the hope" out of every reply I give to someone?<p>Honestly, what is it with you [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] ??? Sometimes, to me, you seem so pessimistic [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] !<p>As for YOUR OPINION of Dr.Phil: "unfortunately men are nothing like dr phil described, and his advice in that quote nonsensical..." THAT IS ONLY YOUR OPINION...and also a *blanket statement* which would have been received better had you phrased your opinion more like, "I am nothing like dr phil," and/or "most men I know are nothing like dr phil." Because, truth is that, SOME MEN ARE VERY MUCH LIKE DR. PHIL DESCRIBES.<p>It is my OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that MY HUSBAND IS VERY MUCH LIKE DR.PHIL DESCRIBES...and I thought that perhaps Nikko could RELATE to the information as well.<p>Which is WHY I posted it-- in the HOPE that perhaps she CAN RELATE. Then again, if she cannot relate (if her H is NOTHING like Dr. Phil describes) then I think she is wise enough to figure that out for herself, and move in a better, more applicable direction to SAVE HER MARRIAGE...or end it...whichever she decides is best for her. <p>You said: "the trouble is, it gives false hope to frantic women looking for answers and/or encourages them to waste additional emotional/time resources on a partner who will never meet their needs." and also, "...if one is in a marriage that is not safe,nurturing,healthy and joyous, and a reasonable amount of effort doesn't substantially alter that reality....one must decide to live with it as an accomodation, or leave....not retreat into wishful thinking all is really well, just their mate a little misguided."<p>Now, granted I haven't followed Nikko's entire story (don't post much any more), but from what I have read here, I do not get the feeling that her situation is HOPELESS. Nor do I believe that she has exhausted a "reasonable amount of effort" into saving her marriage. She may be tired. She may be confused. She obviously is NOT getting her needs met. But, I do not think she is HOPELESS, and I would never ask any woman to *settle* for less than their heart's desire. It just so happens that I am of the belief that her husband WILL BE ABLE TO BE THAT MAN FOR HER...maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of her life [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>Peace, ~Marie<p>--------------
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." ~Martin Luther King, Jr.<p>"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." ~Albert Einstein<p>"Never deprive someone of hope-- it may be all they have." ~Unknown<p>[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]</p>