K. First of hello to everyone and a great big thanx for all the advise and help you have given me and my WW over the last few days. I have been missing in action trying to do an assessment on life and hell and death and taxes, e.t.c...<p>I have to say that I am still hurt and still trying to deal with the issues responsibly and not lose it. I also have to say I was supposed to leave her on Thursday night when my ticket was reserved but I passed up the opportunity and made sure WW went to therapy.
Therapy was good for her I think - not knowing if she was honest to the therapist or not - she did tell him that she had lied in the previous session.<p>I admit that I have hated her for the last few days, actually hate is inappropriate, but I feel like a lot of love I had is gone - that there is little left. However today something happened that has shown me some hope. She phoned OM and told him to get over it and that it was over. She said all the right things and it looks now as if she didn't tip him off that I was with her. She even asked him to email me and give me an apology for his part in what has happened. Whether the little **** does or not will prove to me if he's a man or mouse. <p>She didn't let on to him that I knew about the latest contact so as to deflect any thoughts he may have that I was there coaching her or anything. And I really wasn't coaching. I can say it took all my strength not to rip the phone from her and tell him "I am coming 4 u right now" cuz she asked where he was and I knew I could get to him right then. Oooh I felt like running to the train and getting there. I didn't. I just shook, felt my stomach turn, and listened. <p>What she said did actually give me relief that she means what she says about it being over - and so I suppose I need to bear down and give it another chance. Right or wrong anyone? Did she do that for her or me, that is the question. I hope for her actually, even though I feel some confidence in her now (any confidence is more than I had)<p>I also should admit to you all that I have felt very strongly about leaving her cold and letting her have him and her duality - but not just to protect myself - also to allow her a stress free life because after this last batch of BS I knew any future recovery would be marred by grief and pain. <p>Now here's the thing. I heard some of her conversations with him on her days of still contacting him, and one thing that keeps ringing in my ears is "I have more fun with you (OM) than I did with him (ME)". I remember her saying that to me as well. This has now sparked a trigger in me that says no matter how much fun we may have, she is just pretending. Can anyone help me with this? I would love some info, perhaps a few inspirational words on how to deflate the power of a trigger this monstrous. I feel like I can't go out with her anymore, that I am being compared with some 23 year old idiot. I'm 34 BTW and yes, it hurts my ego that she sought out a younger man. <p>Most other triggers had left or lost there dibilitating power over me when our recovery started looking promising - but now along with the new ones, the old ones have jumped back in my head and hit harder than they ever did.<p>My big question is what can I do to stop thinking everything she says is either a lie or a misdirection? Can I do anything else to be sure of her intentions? I know she wants the M to work, but I am still not sure it is within her power to do the right thing. Her lies are ingrained in her DNA it seems.<p>BTW her councellor suggested she stop taking Prozac for now. I wonder how good an idea this is. I mean it didn't stop her from doing stupid $%^% before, so I guess it doesn't matter that much. <p>Anyway, anyone that can continue to help me by helping her would be an angel in my eyes, and if I ever get rich I would buy you a Ferrari :-) She needs to be questioned, prodded a bit, and overall just given attention so she doesn't feel so alone in this. <p>Again, thank you. I have been reading her threads lately too, and thank all of you for responding to her. Selket if you are reading this, you have explained to me things she could not. I appreciate that and ask if you could contact her more. Seems like you are in tune with her problem. <p>Hoping4future, thank you for helping her over the past month. Your guidance is helping her I feel. I hope your life is on track.

dear harley- im so sorry for what your going through. i have been away and dont know the full story, ill look it up now. i just wanted you to know someone is out here listening to you. big hugs to you

Hi Harley ~<p>Whether or not you get over the triggers and suspicion of lies by your wife is really in the hands of your wife. Her actions and practice of radical honesty is the only solution. <p>And until then, you SHOULDN'T believe her. I know that it hurts like hell and you WANT to be in a marriage with a woman who is honest and faithful, but the truth of the matter is that you are not.<p>I didn't believe your wife when she first started posting here, which is why I took her to task for "hoping" that she wouldn't lie again. Although she claimed that word was a mistake - I've lived with a liar and I know better. So I wasn't surprised when the truth came out.<p>I don't think she means it yet. People don't usually change until the pain of staying-the-same is greater than the pain of change. She probably is genuinely distressed that you might leave her. It hurts. But is the pain great enough that she will truely seek to change? No one can answer that but her, and we won't know if it is until there is a history of consistent radical honesty and actions of responsibility and remorse from her.<p>And you can't let yourself get caught up in trying to force her to change. Your wife is sick and caught up in an addiction. That makes you officially a co-dependent. One of the things that co-dependents do is try to force their partner into changing: into counseling, therapy, rehab, etc.<p>And the result is not what we expected. The addict may get better for awhile...only to relapse. Why? The addict didn't make a decision to change - they were harrassed into it, and often just go along so the co-dependent will "shut up" or so the co-dependent won't leave them (addicts LIKE the enabling behavior of the co-dependent, in fact all that caretaking gives them rationalization to continue!) And in the mean time, the co-dependent has put so much time and energy into "fixing" their partner...that they have seriously neglected themselves.<p>It's all in your wife's hands now. Your triggers will eventually fade (2-5 years) IF she takes the actions necessary to get help for herself and to change her life. She will also have to get very honest with you about her needs (I'll bet Ms. Compulsive Liar hasn't even been honest with her needs - my H wasn't) so that you can meet them, and she'll need to learn yours. IF she is truely remorseful, you'll know eventually.<p>Recovery at the early stages is sheer hell. You need to simply focus on taking care of yourself, that's it. And by all means, keep checking and snooping on your wife. You shouldn't be trusting anything she says until you have a history of verifiable truth from her.

Okay, my H wants an Avalanche, 4-wheel drive, leather interior. I would like a Lincoln Navigator, I wonder if they come in sea-green.<p>All kidding aside...Bramble Rose has given you better advice than I can. It took me almost year to get over my H's near EA. I suspected him of lying to cover his butt, and I don't recall him lying to me like that before. I was still difficult to get over, because he did embellish a lot. That's another issue. It will take time, and consistent effort on her part. <p>The only thing I can suggest (sorry, Bramble didn't get through the whole thing, if you already said this) is to plan A her so that she is not as easily tempted to fail you again. I think you seem like a wonderful man, to stick by her like this. Try to get fun ideas. Have you ever been roller-blading? We just got new skates. I don't like mine yet, but my H is okay on them. That may be something fun you can do. Also, here they have rock climbing gyms. We intend to do that sometime soon. Umm...concerts, candlelight dinner at a fancy restaurant or at home, looking at the stars, aided or un. Maybe this will help get you started for plan A.<p>Keep up the good work Harley. I am amazed at you staying. I thought you were out of here. But, here you are.<p>Hoping

woke feeling it all hard - nightmares are kickin my @££. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>bumping for attention

Now here's the thing. I heard some of her conversations with him on her days of still contacting him, and one thing that keeps ringing in my ears is "I have more fun with you (OM) than I did with him (ME)". I remember her saying that to me as well. This has now sparked a trigger in me that says no matter how much fun we may have, she is just pretending. Can anyone help me with this? I would love some info, perhaps a few inspirational words on how to deflate the power of a trigger this monstrous. I feel like I can't go out with her anymore, that I am being compared with some 23 year old idiot. I'm 34 BTW and yes, it hurts my ego that she sought out a younger man. <p>Harley, this is going to sound very cruel..but the fact of the matter is AT THE TIMEshe probably did have more fun...I know my OS did when he was in the throes of his A. He had a partner that was anticipating his every need, bending over backward to keep his love, and in short..being the persfect woman. I on the other hand, was slogging through life and could care less if he was having fun...or myself for that matter. Figured our love would see us through the hard times.<p>When we started recovery he was still pretty foggy..he missed someone hanging on to his every word, he missed the woman that had become his friend as well as lover. Instead had me..doing my best to meet his needs, but the underlying anxiety was always there....it does wear off..that sense of faking it, the feeling that you're not as "fun" as the OP..but it takes time and effort.<p>Continue to do the best you can with meeting her needs right now...IT WILL NOT BE EASY, but it will be worth it.<p>Like you, the OP was younger..much younger than I and is a remarkably beautiful woman...guys fall off their stools in the bars when she walks by. I'm not a dog, but that was hard for me to handle...still is if I'm having a down day. The crux of the matter is that we all get older..we need something more than the physical to sustain us. <p>Most women, while appreciating physique, are really more attracted to a man who listens to her, is affectionate without always trying to get her to bed, is considerate..does the little things without asking...this is where you can start with her. Again, don't be disheartened if she seems oblivious...withdrawal and fog are fairly thick at first...but consistancy breaks through this.<p>At first is is normal to be suspicious about everything. Talking honestly and openly WITH ABSOLUTELY NO LOVE BUSTERS is crucial right now. As you listen to some of the things she says, you will be livid and ready to kill something..learn to let that go in favor of deeper understanding and intimacy. Detach and pretend you're a third party if that helps..but listen..you'll learn a lot. And as this progresses and you are both able to trust each other with your deepest thoughts..the suspicions will lift. Again, it takes time, so buckle down for a long haul.<p>It's also very normal to have days of absolute hatred...I know I did. I could hardly stand to know he was even in the other room...that's your cue to get out and do something for yourself..for me it was a walk or a swim, manicure or pedicure, good book..anything that relaxed me. I also learned how to take those 15 long, deep, slow breaths...it all helps.<p>I also should admit to you all that I have felt very strongly about leaving her cold and letting her have him and her duality - but not just to protect myself - also to allow her a stress free life because after this last batch of BS I knew any future recovery would be marred by grief and pain. <p>Gosh I wish I had a dollar for everytime I felt like this...I'd be buying that car for myself right now and an extra one for you! The truth again...recovery IS MARRED BY GRIEF AND PAIN. It is the hardest thing I have ever gone thru.. worse than the deaths of my parents...because it's more than just about the marriage..it is about you. It is about you facing all of your worst fears..that you're not young enough, attractive enough, smart enough..anything enough and the A seemed to prove that..now it's up to you to disprove that..not only to her, but to yourself...
So, after all this babbling...what is your plan? That's something that will help you..sort of laying it all out and deciding some directions.
T

Hey Twyla, thanx for the post. You all have been everything to me lately, in the absense of the friends I have (all are now telling me to get out - that I don't need to go through this and that I have many options) You guys understand what true love means.<p>If you want to call what I am doing a plan, I can say this; I plan to avoid triggers and to not let them drag me down into a pit where I wallow in the grief - feeling sorry for myself.<p>I am also taking things one day at a time with my pain. My big hardship comes when I wake up though, because I have nightmares always - bad nightmares. I think that before I can shake off the old ghosts that they still have power while I am not completely conscious. It sux to B me every morning. <p>I used to wake beside my wife and feel a fundamental happiness somewhere - some kind of quiet confidence that I am with the one who loves me. Sometimes I would get up before her and just lay there watching her sleep. I loved her so much then. If I tried that now I would become angry and resentful and so that sux. Now I wake up and always ask the question how many times did she wake up with him? Seems now like everything I used to think about why I loved her has become reasons to avoid the thoughts.<p>I sometimes feel overwhelmed lately, like I see the future and cringe at the future pain I will feel when by leaving her I could alleviate alot of it - if only by just not seeing her face.<p>My plan is also to observe her morphing out of this mess to become the w she was once for me. I hope that is possible. I can't plan A anymore however, plan Aing left me feeling like a doormat that's been thrown in a garbage bin when I found out about this last contact with OM. I think the biggest plan A I am doing now is remaining here to see once and for all if she is becoming an honest person and capable of the respect I so wish to give back to her.<p>U r right about this being the worst thing in the world; my father died when I was 15 and my mother a few years ago from cancer. My mother died in my arms after cancer ravaged her body and left her bruised and unable to breathe.<p>The difference between that and this pain and suffering is that Mom wasn't leaving me on purpose, she didn't choose to show me that hell, and when she died it was over - wheras this suffering is ongoing, a continual process of reliving things. There was a relief for me that Mom finally passed, because I knew at least the pain she felt was over for her and she could rest. Here and now there is no relief, no waking up with at least the thought that "well, it's finally over and no more can be done"<p>I hope you all continue to support my W in this, because u guys are helping. God willing we can get through this.

Harley~<p>I keep having recurring nightmares that my husband is cheating on me. Go figure, I'm the one who cheated. But, you couldn't tell me the dreams aren't real because they felt as if they were happening right before me....in real life. I don't know what to tell you to do about that....if you find a cure, please let me know. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> but I feel like a lot of love I had is gone - that there is little left.<hr></blockquote><p>Of course you feel this way!!! Who wouldn't after what you have been through? I think this is your psyche trying to protect your heart (understandably). Things seem hopeless (or nearly hopeless) and I know the road that is looming in front of you seems endless. Harley, you are grieving.....allow yourself....at this point, I would say to maintain your hope...Genevieve is trying.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Whether the little **** does or not will prove to me if he's a man or mouse. <hr></blockquote><p>At the risk of p*ssing some people off I'm going to say this...."I think we both know what this person is, and it sure ain't a man!" [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Harely, don't hinge anything on whether or not he apologizes. Chances are, he won't. He's how much younger than you?????? You are the Big Dawg and I'm sure he's sitting in the corner somewhere licking his wounds. Afterall, he's been rejected and he's been rejected for YOU! Not likely he will swallow crow, he'll just move on. (Of course, I could be wrong and he may suprise you with an apology.....don't expect it, though...afterall, he's been slinking for how long now????).<p>I've gotta hand it to you....you showed alot more restraint that I think I would have been able to show. Kudos for you! Now you are better than him because you didn't let him get to you....right....right?!?! Okay, so I know I'm wrong, but the point is....he doesn't know how you feel right now. I wonder if indifference in a situation like this hurts more than rejection? I know you are angry with him, and personally I think you would be justified in confronting him....but, would that be conducive to your goals with your wife? Put your energy where it's needed.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>and so I suppose I need to bear down and give it another chance. Right or wrong anyone? <hr></blockquote><p>Neither right nor wrong. You don't need to do this. Harley, the question is....do you want to? Take all of this crap (adultery) out of this situation and think of it as an addiction (say drugs). If you saw your wife floundering BUT trying in her own way to make something better of herself and kick the habit, would you feel you needed to stay and help her or would you want to stay and help her? There is a big difference. DO NOT, I repeat....DO NOT NOT NOT stay because you feel obligated to stay. That will only breed resentment.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I would love some info, perhaps a few inspirational words on how to deflate the power of a trigger this monstrous. I feel like I can't go out with her anymore, that I am being compared with some 23 year old idiot.<hr></blockquote><p>Okay, I'll give it a go.......I think you are comparing yourself to a 23 year-old-wet-behind the-ears-kid. Harley, he's a kid playing what he thought was a man's game. He was too stupid to see it. Sorry, that's just how I see it. I wouldn't give too much creedence to your wife saying she had more fun with him.......it was a fantasy and aren't fantasies always fun? They didn't have the daily life and stresses that the two of you had. Heck, no marriage is fun all of the time. You will drive yourself crazy trying to compete with a fantasy. So, the two of you need to make a list of fun things and do those with each other. DIFFERENT fun things than what they did. Do your own fun stuff together and make it all the more special because it is shared between ONLY the two of you. Another thing...she wasn't really giving you an opportunity or letting you in on the fact that you needed to go an extra "fun" mile, now was she?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My big question is what can I do to stop thinking everything she says is either a lie or a misdirection? Can I do anything else to be sure of her intentions? <hr></blockquote><p>There isn't one darn thing you can do. It's sad, but that is the way it is. This is where your wife has to step up to the plate and put her actions where her mouth is. She has to PROVE herself to you. You have no reason to trust her and you (nor she) is in a position to allow for any leeway in this. Down to the amount of money she spent on a pack of chewing gum....she has to be honest. No if's, and's or but's about it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I know she wants the M to work, but I am still not sure it is within her power to do the right thing. <hr></blockquote><p>Oh, YES it IS in her power. Don't UNDERESTIMATE this! It is in her power just as much as it's in your power and just as much as it's in anybody's power. The question is....does she have the WILL???? You will know the answer to this by her actions. She will know the answer to this when her will to do the right thing overides her desire to do the easy thing and she follows through with what is right.<p>Yes, I will be in contact with Genevieve. BTW- Tan leather interior, CD changer and AC....but I will settle for a Volkswagen Beetle. I'm short so it fits me right nicely. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>hugs and frienship to you and G,<p>sel<p>P.S. How do you pronounce Genevieve? Gwen-i-veeve? Jen-i-veeve?

Thank you Selket,<p>U pronounce her name jen- a - veve (at least I do). I appreciate you being in touch with her, and I have to say u r very in touch with this problem we have. I read your threads previous and I am so sorry you have had such a past of pain. I feel for u. I also had abuse issues in my family, nothing sexual but definitely physical and emotional. My family was very dysfunctional and my Dad was an alchoholic who turned into the antichrist when he drank. I've been beat down many times in my life. In fact I was actually hit UP a flight of stairs once. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Neither right nor wrong. You don't need to do this. Harley, the question is....do you want to? Take all of this crap (adultery) out of this situation and think of it as an addiction (say drugs). If you saw your wife floundering BUT trying in her own way to make something better of herself and kick the habit, would you feel you needed to stay and help her or would you want to stay and help her? There is a big difference. DO NOT, I repeat....DO NOT NOT NOT stay because you feel obligated to stay. That will only breed resentment. <hr></blockquote><p>I am not staying out of an obligation I feel, that is for sure. If anything I feel obligated more to leave and get on with my life. It is completely out of love for her that I stay. However I can say this; sometimes I want to stay, but most times I don't want. I stay out of hope, out of the memory of us when our relationship was true. I really have had many instances lately of wanting nothing more than run away, dissapear and leave her to her designs. As well I have a hard time equating what she has done to an addicts behaviour. My brother is the textbook definition of addict, drugs, alchohol, he has liver disease now from his self abuse. With him it was physiological, whereas Gen has had no physical cravings due to a chemical imbalance. She had free will while most addicts do not have that luxury. She chose to contact OM knowing full well that it would hurt me to the core of my person, and she deserves to own the responsibility of it, not blame it away on addiction. I say that because many times my brother has admitted to "slipping" just because it was easy to do once you're deemed an "Addict".<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> There isn't one darn thing you can do. It's sad, but that is the way it is. This is where your wife has to step up to the plate and put her actions where her mouth is. She has to PROVE herself to you. You have no reason to trust her and you (nor she) is in a position to allow for any leeway in this. Down to the amount of money she spent on a pack of chewing gum....she has to be honest. No if's, and's or but's about it. <hr></blockquote><p>U r right about that. So how, let's say, if she goes to work where she has access to outside communication and the ability to sneak a meeting, can I have some assurance of her not doing that - (without blowing 700.00 on a PI again that is.) Also, I think Genevieve is having trouble understanding what radical honesty means - in that sometimes she seems confused as to how to be open and honest - with everything. Maybe if I can impose on your kindness Selket you could show her some examples of radical honesty - as in some examples in your own life you have used to be honest to a fault. This would help her I am sure.<p>Also yeah I want to confront him in the worst way, but in my life I have had many fights and always was the first to resort to violence. This is true of me in situations that make my current one look like a picnic in the park. I have been in martial arts all of my younger life and know very well how to hurt someone. I could write a book on it. Here and now I know if I even see him on the street I will likely tear his arm off and beat him to death with it - and because I am in a country where I am not a permanent resident it would be bad for me. So although I am proud to have left him alone and allowed him to continue breathing without the assistance of machines - I know a sighting would be a very bad thing for everyone. Young or not, he played in the big leagues and he should see what can happen up here where the real men live.<p>As 4 an OM apology, well I think that would do alot to difuse my anger towards him. Him showing remorse and making the effort to communicate to me would let me shelve the rage and try understanding it all abit more - but no I don't really expect him to. A man who gets involved with another man's woman is not a man, he is a *****, a pathetic peice of sewage that feeds off others life cuz they have no skills to get their own.<p>I hope all is well Selket, and please continue to be relentless for us, I am calling Volkswagon now, what color do you want?<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>harley

BTW BrambleRose I never mentioned that your post was well recieved and I remember how you questioned her on her misuse of the word HOPE in context of being honest. I questioned her on that as well.<p>BR, I have followed your posts alot and I can't say enough about how your blunt and no holds barred approach is more than refreshing. Sometimes it has a surgical accuracy to cut through all the BS. I admire you tons for this.<p>I know I have been asking alot lately from people here at MB, but I have to ask u as well to help me by helping Genevieve as well. Please read her posts and please share your opinions with her on what u think is honesty and what is smoke and mirrors. Once I could differentiate but now I am all beaten down, so I can't really see. I know u can. Thankyou in advance.

Harley,<p>I took a morning walk down to the bus stop to deliver something to my H he left. It felt like the world just about stood still. I guess it's that way on a Sundy a.m. No one moves. I would be going to church, but my car is down for the count. That's why the bus. (Not needing sympathy.) On the way back, facing the sun, I was reminded of something that has helped me forgive myself for my depression on some mornings, and up until now. My depression is just about over I think, but I'll say that, and I'll have a bad day--like a bad cold that just lingers. <p>Anyway, here's what I wanted to offer you...<p>Lamentations 3:22-23 "Because of the Lord's great love we are not consumed, for His compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is Your faithfulness."<p>Perhaps this will eventually help you. Maybe one morning you will wake up feeling the love, in some way, again. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] --with a tear.

hoping4future<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Good morning, Harley!<p>Sorry this is so long.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> As well I have a hard time equating what she has done to an addicts behaviour. With him it was physiological, whereas Gen has had no physical cravings due to a chemical imbalance.<hr></blockquote><p>Man, I know what you mean. I felt the same way when I was in an inpatient group with Alcoholics, Drug Addicts, Sex-n-Love Addicts, Eating Addicts, and Gambling Addicts. First of all, I couldn't understand WHY a Gambling Addict would be in treatment because there was no chemical involved. Just money and them doing what they want to do. But here this guy was, losing his wife, family, his home, everything he has worked for in his life.....all for gambling???? How silly, I thought. Harley, when it was broken down and this guy started talking, he was saying and behaving the exact same way as a drug addict acts when he wants to score....straight down to withdrawals. And, believe it or not, he did have a chemical addiction....only, these chemicals were internal, not external. He actually had an endorphin released in his brain each time he scored (jackpot) and as he was driving to 1 1/2 hours to the casino he was doing everything possible to get that score. He was looking for a rush. Same as with Compulsive Eaters. Well, just stop eating, right????<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> She had free will while most addicts do not have that luxury.<hr></blockquote> <p>Yes, Harley, Genevieve had free will......like EVERY person on this planet has....even the alcoholics and druggies. I think maybe you are having a hard time grasping that she didn't pick up a bottle or needle. You can relate to those things because you saw your father do it and you saw your brother do it. Chemical substances (drink and drugs) are tangible....sex (and the why's of it), well, that's not tangible. Harley, the only way I know to describe you not grasping this is this.......at one point in my marriage I was very unhappy (the first time I had a ONS) and I was talking to my father. His response was this "Well, E (Hubby) doesn't beat you and he gets up and goes to work every day. He's a good man". So, because he couldn't see physical signs of any abuse (verbal, control, neglect) he assumed something totally different from reality.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>she deserves to own the responsibility of it, not blame it away on addiction. I say that because many times my brother has admitted to "slipping" just because it was easy to do once you're deemed an "Addict".<hr></blockquote><p>I absolutely, totally, COMPLETELY agree with you on this!!!! Please understand, I am not giving you information in attempt to blame what Genevieve has done on an addiction. My hope is that I can offer you some insight so that you can maybe understand this from a different angle. To better equip you. H, I know I'm not the only person who has mentioned addiction to you. I really think it would benefit you to do some research on Sex-n-love addiction. Even if you don't believe in it, just do some research, maybe you can find a website or something and just see if there is anything in it that you can see in Genevieve. <p>Also, NOW YOU KNOW there is a problem with this type of addiction (or maybe you can understand it a whole lot better after research???) so it cannot be used as a scapegoat for Genevieve to get away with stuff. She won't be able to "fall back on it" in the future (immediate future, the times when she wants to revert back to old ways....now she sees a problem and knows that she has a choice to do the right thing or go back to her old ways). <p>Harley, I want to tell you that I am so very sorry this has happened to you. I wouldn't wish what you are going through on anyone. I can relate very much to your position because my husband was in this position as well.<p>Martial arts??? VERY cool!!!!! I'm thinking about taking some Kung Fu classes. I definitely want my dauther to take some sort of self defense classes.<p>Harley, the sad thing about this guy is this....he will probably never try to put himself in your shoes or even try to empathize with you UNTIL he is in the same position you are now in. It is very likely (statistically speaking) that the woman he loves will cheat on him....or even he may have to be in the position to hold his daughter while she cries because her husband cheated on her. One just doesn't do something like this and get to live the rest of one's life in bliss.(I am not saying that because someone's spouse cheats on them they did something to deserve it....Lord, I'm not saying that at all.)<p>Don't hurt him, Harley, he's doing a right fine job of that himself. I know you want immediate gratification (beating the crap outta him, seeing him squirm, receiving mouth to mouth)....but, I have a very strong feeling that
this guy is digging his own grave. You are the BIG DAWG, so just raise your hackles and bare your teeth....that is all that's needed. Hang in there, you are stronger than you think you are. You are Da Man!<p>sel<p>[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: selket ]</p>

Another bad day, actually a horrible one. Maybe this is a vent, I dunno.<p>She went to work today. Can't blame her for that - she has people to see, things to fax, works piled up over the last while, yadayadayada. It sux 2 b me though, because last night I realized something from the dates I received about her phonecalls from the PI.<p>She was calling him her first day back from vacation - the vacation that was to be the beginning of our recovery. Heartless b**tch!!!! Sorry. Anyway, in the first place I so wish she could grab a clue and let me know things like this before I figure them out on my own. Says she didn't remember this fact. OK, so she forgets that our big statement - our metaphor vacation that said "together we would get over this" meant NOTHING to her only 24 hours later. Well anyway, it sux 2 b me. Not to mention it was a damned waste of money when we really have none to waste.<p>So now she's at work again, I have the pi watching again and I am going broke. Gotta come up with another 700.00 now. It's times like these when I can't think of 1 good reason to stay. She hasn't spent one minute apart from me being honest or caring about my feelings and I know she likely isn't now. It's just so sh**ty to know that. I remember back then during our vacation even that I told her I would hire a pi to do a polygraph interview to find out if she was seeing or talking to him - even that didn't stop her! The very next day she was on the phone with him.<p>I don't really have a question. I am just sick of this pain. I am sick of discovering things like this on my own, when everyone including her therapist says she is suppose to step up to bat now and take her swings. It is "her responsibility" to repair this damage by radical honesty, by disclosing to me details like "I was talking to him the day I got back to work." And on top of that where r these "extraordinary measures" that will guarantee my peace of mind? She is back at the grind, back in the work life that she herself admitted was a place where she felt she could do anything and it wouldn't matter. <p>Last night she said "I'm sorry but he is gone from my life, that chapter is closed and I want to forget" So how can she understand my pain and help me if she can forget the whole thing. Jeez I dunno. This is getting to be a right pain in the a@£.<p>Selket - thanx 4 the reply and yes I am sure of the similarities between addicts and her behaviour. The thing for me is that before this there was no need for the drama, she had no reason to lie and she didn't. There was none of this - if I didn't like something she wouldn't do it, and visaversa. We respected each other then. Now it's like she was posessed by the devil or something. I never had one clue that this is the person she is; I fell in love with someone else. When I left for Japan I knew my W, I came home to a complete stranger, a hurtful and heartless one.<p>Yes if she was reaching for the bottle I would help, and yes if she was hitting needles I would be by her side through the worst days - but this is other men! This is not some object or substance, it is not a substance that makes her lie, it's her getting an endorphin rush from the act of perverting the love she pledged to me!! If she is truly a sex and love addict than I can guarantee you I am not strong enough to face that with her - because I have had enough crap already. This type of behaviour is prone to slips and falling off the bandwagon (so to speak) Well I can't have one more slip or I will lose my sanity. She slips again and it is over for real. Hell I'm not even sure it's not over already. <p>So while you may be right about this addict style life of hers I sincerely hope it doesn't boil down to that. I am truly afraid of that possibility.

I just wanted to jump in and say that I know exactly how you feel, but after all I've gone through I'm forcd to agree with the addiction analogy. Of course, I also add in a bit of religion because I think that - just like with the 12 step program to get addicts to deal with their addiction - I thinkg that God has alot to do with this too. <p>If someone can't handle the temptation, then God can always step in and help them handle it, but it's up to the person to turn to a higher power.<p>There is always a battle of goos and evil going on. Society has made it socially acceptable to have affairs - it's all in the movies, t.v., books etc. People get numb to the whole idea and let it slide. Consequences are few and far between.<p>It's not right. It's not fair. But it is happening. <p>As far as I can tell, Marriage Builders has identified this type of behavior and seeks to provide us with the skills? to deal with what is happening. There are no cut and dry solutions beause everyone is different and everyone has free will. However, the MB principles are probably our best shot and actively doing something to change our situations. <p>We know what will happen id we do nothing. The spouse leaves. But by working MB there is at least a chance that things may be different. Even if that difference is a change in ourselves. <p>I know that early on in the process it's not much consolation, but while we are doing Plan A or whatever, we are growing and changing and time is healing us, if not our spouses too.<p>In the end, if our spouses do leave, we can either be totally incapacited by their actions and not be worth anything to anyone, or we can arise from this better and stonger people. <p>I have to believe that God will not abandon those who are faithful to Him. And sometimes He lets difficult things happen in our lives for growth and change. You may want to read Secrets of the Vine. But in the end, those who are faithful, He'll see through the dark times and give us wonderful glorious lives.<p>I know it would be easier if we could just fast forward to the good times, but that's not life. <p>Just take it day by day, and see how you do. There will be ups and downs. Maybe next time you are in an Up you can write yourself a note reminding yourself why you are trying to save your marriage and then you can read it during a low time.<p>Try to stay strong. K

Is she making $700 during the time that you have hired the PI? If I was you, I'd do the snooping myself. Do people cover for her? You should know by now who that is. Why not suprise her at the office. I told her to invite you to lunch if that's possible. Plus, I asked her if you could show up unannounced. (Just thought you should know that if she doesn't act surprised.) I know that everything a PI does is not simple to do, and may not be duplicated, but it doesn't make financial sense to spend $700 for her to bring home $650. Or if she makes $1000, to bring home just $300. It'd be better for her to stay home. Don't you agree? Or am I way off on this?<p>Hoping

To hoping4future,<p>I hope you are well. One day - if God spares us and G and I can work this out we would love to meet you!!! Take u to lunch or something. (I have a lottery ticket too, so if I win look for that Ferrari!!!)<p>Yes it definitely makes more sense in all ways for her to be home rather than work because yes she is not making enough money to warrant this expenditure. <p>The thing a PI can do that I cannot is listen in at the office and watch her to and from work. I have been getting maybe one hour sleep a night so me taking her to work is almost impossible. I have been thinking about installing a web cam in her office, but the legality of that is in question. PI's know how to bask in the grey area of law here, whereas me on my own could get in trouble. <p>She has obligations to this company and her boss - which I argued that shouldn't mean more than us. But in the end I do see her point. It just sux that we have to deal like this - when all I want is the time to trust again and not be made a fool of anymore. Finding out anything else now would be the dagger that kills me - and so I am trying anything to make sure that doesn't happen. <p>Today was another bad day - but ended up good. Just an update. She said finish at 1 and 1 ended up 2. I didn't think that would hit me as it never has before, but now everything is so different. I feel like I hang on every word - waiting for some other thing to poke and stab at me. Jeez it is hard!!! Feels like I'm on point now in some war where I have to be sharp as hell and can't let up one minute or I'll be shot or blown up.<p>To any WS out there reading this I have to say please stop putting your S through this. I couldn't fathom putting anyone - even my enemies - even HIM through this. It is pure agony some days.<p>Anyway, thank you all again for supporting us in this. Any help you all can offer my W please feel free - I need help healing, but she needs help knowing when to dress the wounds and tighten the stitches.<p>harley<p>PS
for Selket:
Kung Fu is great for the kids, but I would suggest Aikido as it is a great tool for building confidence and has many real world applications. Some Kung Fu schools are over-glorified and some SIFU (instructors) in the states have overstated their credentials. And BTW in MHO that is true for any martial art - always check the credentials. <p>Karate, Aikido, Judo, any art like this is a tremendous boost to a young child and well worth the money. I am glad you consider this.
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Harley,<p>Still praying. I don't need a vehicle (ask me again in about a year, that's how long we keep the clunkers we have usually [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] And that's how long it has taken me to really forgive my H on a deep level). But, I think it would be nice to meet the two of you also. Thank you for the sentiments.<p>Keep hanging in there. I think you are doing well. I know it hurts. My situation hurt and there was only one night of flirting, no touching, no exchanging words of mutual feelings and very few feelings in fact. It was more of a temptation than anything. But, because he wanted to make me angry cuz he was angry, he lied. But, that's nothing what you have been through and are facing. I know I don't know the pain you are in. But I do understand how it can hurt as much as you describe.<p>Take care Harley.<p>Hoping