<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Authored by Paruil to SnL regardng Marriage:<p>But for many people, they do not like what they become by it; they do not like what marriage does to them. Which really means, they do not like the powerlessness, inferiority, lack of industry, lack of competence they see reflected about themselves by way of the condition of their marriage or relationship.<p>They do not like the version of themselves that being married brings out in them. And I think that&#8217;s really the crux of the issue that you&#8217;re dealing with, SnL: You don&#8217;t like what being married has done to you, you don&#8217;t like the person you are when you are married to Thinker. That&#8217;s why you write about &#8220;fit&#8221; instead. If you fit well with another, then you&#8217;d like yourself once again, you&#8217;d be happy with yourself, you&#8217;d be more self-accepting instead of self-rejecting. <p>Your rejection of Thinker right now and your longing for your OW/MW are secondary right now to your own rejection of the person you are (or become) when you are with Thinker and the your acceptance of the person you are (or become) with your OW/MW. Until you come to terms with your self-rejection, and see whether or not you are able to come to some semblance of self-acceptance apart from who you are with and the person you become because of that (the person that that interaction brings out in you) you&#8217;ll always be shifting scenery in your life, looking for a better fit elsewhere or mistreating the person you&#8217;re with (contaminating the relationship) because you don&#8217;t like who you are when you are with that person.<hr></blockquote><p>The quote above has me thinking. I'm no intellectual giant, but after readng this I can't help but wonder if serial adulterors have this same issue with self-rejection, and because they have never contemplated the problem lys within, thus never done any true self examination or introspection, they continue on this destructive path of infidelity, thinking if they'd just meet the right person they'd eventually find happiness. And when they are dissapointed with the results of the A, they return to the scene of the crime (the Marriage).<p>I'd like to know what causes them to feel such a degree of self-rejection to the extent they'd betray their family and spouse repeatidly. <p>I'd appreciate any thoughts anyone here has to offer, especially from the spouse's (WS or BS) who have experienced serial cheating in their marriage.<p>Jo<p>[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

HI Jo,
Let me make some coffee, then I will have to respond to this one! Aloha, cl

I haven't responded to that part of the post paruil made re myself...and is a bit disconcerting to be referenced in your post about serial cheaters....having never been one...I suspect if what paruil suggested about me was true I would have cheated/left long ago.<p>As for your question here I imagine serial cheaters come in several different flavors, perhaps one being some sort of rejection syndrome....but my guess would be they are mostly narcissists....therefore they are incapable of recognizing they are betraying anything.<p>I also have a thought re returning to the scene of the crime...I think the vast majority of recoveries (whether ultimately successful or not) are about failed affairs, not choosing their spouse...and is probably why (now, anyways, not sure before I got educated) I would not attempt recovery with a ws, no reason too....they are not choosing me....and is why I am such a hardcase and villified by many here....I won't do that to thinker...if I cannot return without reservation, and with enthusiasm, not just settleing for her, but passionately choosing her above all others (and being radically honest about that) then I should set her free.... she sometimes says she doesn't have to have that, but I have to be able to give it, it is who I am....

If this concept is valid, why does it have to apply to a serial cheaters only? or for that matter, why limit this concept to adulterers? why not people who have failed relationships in general? AND, it all starts with the first one - doesn't have to be a series for the first failure.

I'd say that the theory is right. Why else would a person cheat? They have come to a place in their lives where they do not like who they are in the marriage.<p>In the case of people who start cheating early in the marriage and do this repeatedly, the cause if probably more that not only do they no like who they are in the marriage, but they also no do really like themselves. So they look for constant reinforcement that they are ok and loveable.

HI Jo,
What you are asking is so very complicated....
Yikes!
Partly it gets down to core beliefs-cultural, family cohesiveness and likely some early sexual experiences. Good vs bad, etc.
Some serial cheaters may have taken the time for introspection, but it certainly must have looked scary and they didn't stay there too long without a support system in place. I think most are rather disengaged....self-centered and have low self worth images.
The preoccupation allows them to step back from the reality-the stressors but if they can keep the family intact, when the stress of the affair becomes heavy, they can go back to family.
Serial cheaters also experience escalating and declines in behaviors. Maybe there is no affair acted on for many years....maybe the shame, guilt and regret can keep one in control for a period of time? But then the serial cheater perceives his/her needs are not being met and the cycle resurfaces.
I do feel the cycle has a great deal to do with self-worth, the ability to love oneself. They want to go back to the feelings they had at the onset of the previous affair. The feelings allow them to escape self and the reality of family.
Whew Jo........this is emotionally taxing!
More later. cl

The theory is sound IMO. But I do agree with WAT that it's probably more fitting for a lifetime of relationships, not just in marriage.<p>Here's my question to you Jo: Why are you focusing on this? Are you still looking for closure regarding your xH?<p>Don't get me wrong... I think this thread could spark some great conversations and theories... I'm just curious about where your feelings are at now.<p>Take care,
Karen

My husband could probably be classified as a serial cheater. He's told me he does it because "something is missing" from his life and maybe he'll find it with someone else. But he never does. He had a rough childhood -- divorce, alcoholism, substance abuse. He's had some very negative experiences that he has kept bottled up all his life. Until recently, I don't think he's ever really taken a good hard look at himself -- I think he's afraid what he might find. It was always easier to blame me, or his childhood, or his job for his actions.

I've been thinking about this thread...<p>Seems to me that the same things can be said about many people who do not have affairs too. The difference is perhaps in the way they choose to self medicate to handle the 'inner void'. Some use food, drug, gambling, shopping, workaholic etc etc. All sorts of 'addictions' are used in this manner.<p>I am not sure that any one can say that in a marriage the BS is always, unequally, more emotionally stable then the WS.<p>I’ve heard, and believe, that people are attracted to each other because their emotional states are equivalent. It’s just that one spouse may choose to have an affair to handle their inner turmoil, while the other may over eat, etc.<p>As the couple grows as individuals, there is the possibility that a disparity between their emotional ‘wellness’ could drive a wedge between them. Then the, WS, chooses to seek someone out who ‘fits’ at the moment, or who fills the void. <p>Some (especially WS and OP) might argue that the WS may be emotionally healthier then the BS and therefore seeks an extramarital affair to find a healthy emotional match. I do not believe this. Why? Because an emotionally healthy spouse will resolve one relationship and heal themselves before involving another in their lives. And an emotionally healthy person would never become an OP. Being an OP is resounding with lack of self-esteem and self-respect. How else could a person live in the shadows and accept only the crumbs. <p>JMHO

While I agree that serial cheaters have not confronted their own "demons", I don't think that they are out there looking for the "perfect match". Not always, anyhow. My WH will admit without reservation that none of the women he had sex with were women he would consider an LTR with. They were mostly strangers, people he had no interest in knowing as "people". He had sex with them and split. So why betray the family and spouse repeatedly? I think in some cases it's a matter of using sex to self-medicate. Whether it makes them feel better about themselves for just a little while OR confirms to them that they are not worth "real" love, OR in their mind is some sort of momentary rebellion against their spouse. I have just recently accepted the last. <p>My WH's ONS all happened at times when I was EXTREMELY vulnerable and in need of a real friend, really needed him to step up to the plate and be a "Partner". Did he, as cl suggests, feel "inadequate", perhaps resentful that he was being called upon to be an adult? He unilaterally refused to help me or even admit that I needed help. He chose these times to "medicate" himself by having the PA's. I see it as a kid throwing a tantrum. All is well while they are happily engaged in their chosen activity, but ask them to leave the store/pick up their room/do their homework and they stomp their feet and scream like kids. " I won't DO it and you can't make me, and to show you just how much you CAN'T make me, I'm going out and... just to teach you a lesson! " I'm sure that this form of rebellion is a part of some LT A's also. Escape from reality. Showing mommy/daddy that I can do whatever I want because I'm an adult now. <p>Snow

My WH is a serial cheater (he won't confess to it because they were primarily EAs and just a kiss). [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>He told his OW from last April that he was very empty and lost. When I asked him about it I had taken it to mean that the M was unfulfilling to him and he was empty. I wanted to understand why and he said it had nothing to do with me or our M - it was him - he was always empty in his life.<p>I sort of knew this from our dating days and I even read the book by Dennis Rainey (Familylife.com) Building Your Mate's Self-Esteem. I tried doing the things Dennis Rainey suggested, but never really made much leadway. My H also skimmed through the book and agreed with a lot that was written.<p>So we both recognize this, but it goes on and on...<p>My H is addicted to that new love feeling without a doubt and this has a lot to do with it.<p>It still doesn't make it easy to deal with!<p> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: Free2BMe ]</p>

Zorweb, you make an excellent point about the perceived emotional stablity of the BS. For the past 6 years I've been telling my husband he's the one with a problem. He's the one who needs counseling. He's the real reason why our marriage was a shambles.<p>Only recently have I realized that I'm just as messed up as he is, perhaps even more so. I have other outlets -- compulsive shopping, eating and other obsessive behavior. At least he has recognized in the past that he did have demons. Mine have always been invisible.

I do believe that serial cheaters are looking for someone that makes them feel - whatever it is they're trying to feel! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] In my case alone, and I hope this doesn't sound like I'm bragging because I'm not - but my husband cheated on me with a succession of women who were very homely or worked in low end minimum wage jobs and were very needy. The last one being half his age so she was just easily manipulated and she is also an immigrant so I suspect she doesn't even have her green card yet becasue she's still taking English classes. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Don't ask!!!<p>I mean, I've always had a decent career and was able to hold my own, but he would mess around with women who really needed him and clung to him. He even told me once that I don't act like I need him. Well, I married you, I'm taking care of the house and kids and YOU, what else can I do? I had his back when the going got tough, when he lost his job, I would pick up the slack. So I don't get what it was he was looking for. I know that he could tell these women just about anything and they would believe it. So I think it's about his ego, he needs them to make him feel important.<p>There is only so much you can do for another person. by virtue of being alive you should already feel important. You have a family, you have a job, people that love you. If you are suffering from such low esteem that you have to hurt the people who love you while you search for...something, then that's a personal problem.<p>Why is it that serial cheaters want to stay married? Why don't they just become single people who don't want to commit but date and have a good time? Nothing wrong with that if you're honest!

Hi everyone,<p>This thread really got me thinking, cuz my H has been a serial cheater, I found this out on D-day when he confessed to having "fallen in love" with the current OP. He has had a very poor relationship w/ his mother (sorry, to other moms out there!) who was emotionally unavailable to him and siblings and was also verbally abusive. Father was present, but not emotionally. Two of the 4 boys in his family have had substance abuse problems (my H included), one brother gay, the other has had his own infidelity issues. A pretty screwed up bunch! (Too bad I didn't know more of this before we married!)<p>He also searched out needy women who thought he was the best thing they ever had, and in most cases, they were right. What did he get out of this? A tremendous ego boost, which for a man who didn't like himself a lot, turned out to be what he was looking for. He wasn't loved as a child, so he was always looking for that love, I guess. He had an empty hole in himself that he kept trying to fill, not realizing that the only person who could fill it was himself.<p>He is now in treatment for drug and sex addiction and this has really caused him to look within himself and see what was going on all this time. Introspection is good, and he is doing it. I see a lot of changes in him, I hope it continues.<p>My H also seemed to get involved in A's when there were big stressors in our life, birth of children, unexpected pregnancy, finances. He acted out in this way to relieve his anxiety with his reality. Why didn't he leave ever? I am still looking for a good answer. He has said that he always realized that I was the best person for him, was always there for him, he didn't want to leave that "nurturing" I gave him. I have come to realize that he placed so little value on me because he felt he had so little value. And this is a person with a stellar medical career, beloved by all! Very sad. Fortunately he has realized that his A's, including this last one, were just attempts to get what he never got as a child.<p>I am thankful that he is where he needs to be getting help for his problems. He is learning to fill up that hole in himself from the inside out. <p>I am in alanon now, working on my own feelings of poor self-esteem. I have boundaries now. I see a therapist who is helping me examine my own behaviors. I accept no blame for my H's behavior, I have honestly come to see this as having nothing to do with me, these are problems that he brought to the marriage. That doesn't mean that I will accept a continuation of this behavior, because I am finally valuing myself. Carmen