Yeah, I've been posting a lot lately... it's been an active time, and I'm starting to tire of things... If you need to get up-to-speed, check out my other posts.<p>Right now, WW is in the process of initiating a move out. She's located a place in the city she works in. We've had a talk about dividing up stuff. She's quite serious, believing, I think, that she needs some "time alone" - yeah, whatever. How many times has that phrase been said?<p>She seems to want to minimize impacts. She knows she's going to have to tell her family, but will undoubtedly not give the real reasons. She asked me to promise not to reveal OM's name, although she realizes she can't tell me not to admit she's having an A - I'm not going to lie (or continue to enable).<p>She also seems to want to control me. When we started talking about this, I ventured out, "yeah, I might want to move too." That REALLY surprised her... "Don't you like it here?", "I just assumed you'd stay", etc. I also mentioned that I might want to be traveling a bit. She said, "I hope you aren't planning on going to Nepal - you know I want to go there too." She admitted that she hates the idea of not having some kind of control over me - the idea was somewhat surprising to her.<p>I believe she'd like to believe she could leave, test the waters of not having me, but still having me "within her control". It troubles her most when she thinks I may not be accessible to her.<p>The way I see it, so long as I'm not in strong Plan B, I'm enabling her (and OM) to "test things out", not as husband and wife.<p>The reason I bring this topic up is that SH had thought I might want a modified Plan B, last I talked to him (admittedly a while ago, before the latest developments).<p>Any reasons others can think of for me to do anything but the strongest of Plan B's?<p>My gut tells me this... let her move out, likely in the next 2 weeks. In the next 2 weeks, take on an air of cool confidence and mystery.<p>I'd help her move, be kind, and wish her well. Then fall off the face of the earth in many ways. Let her contact me, initiating nothing. After a couple of exchanges that she might initiate, send my Plan B letter to her / OM. Then there's nothing left but healing - yeah!!<p>Today, she admitted that she feels trapped between a rock and a hard place, like she's being "forced into a decision". This arises from the fact that I've finally established by boundary conditions for reconciliation: she's got to get away from OM, which means moving. And she knows about Plan B now, having read SAA. So she appreciates suddenly that she can't go on with both of us forever, that she's going to lose.<p>I think the next 2 weeks will be critical, to establish an environment where she's got to start wondering about me.

JR... what you have described is very near LRT at Divorcebusting... described in Divorce Remedy...<p>as for why shouldn't you??? I can only think of one thing... if.... you're plan A has been weak...<p>otherwise?? sounds like a plan...<p>Cali

WAT's Plan B criteria:<p>Have you identified, corrected, and demonstrated your Plan A improvements?<p>Have you REALLY demonstrated them?<p>Are you physically separated by a decision of your WS?<p>As soon as you can answer "yes" to all three questions, I believe a BS should go to Plan B.<p>Remember, Plans A and B are all about you, not about manipulating your WS.<p>When you go to Plan B you are saying to your spouse, "you decided to separate, I'm deciding to STAY separated until I determine you've met my criteria for attempting a reconciliation."<p>WAT

Yeah, when I posted this, I was feeling quite down. Still am.<p>Shared a moment of "reality" with WW. Noticed WW wasn't wearing her rings anymore, kind of set me off - haven't been "set off" before much at all, I don't think. I should have let it slide, I suppose. I asked her about it instead. She admitted she was feeling strange about wearing them. So I gave her my ring and said, "I'd love to get this back from you somday, but it's meaning right now has somehow changed for me too." (paraphrased) Of course she says, "Why are you trying to hurt me", etc.<p>After a bit of discussion, we share a moment or two of "reality". The gesture, I think, was another degree of reality for her, and it tends to bring her back, if just for a short time. After talking about her hurt, she starts saying things like, "I promise you, I'll never forgive myself for this", "I'm sorry I've wasted so much of your life", "Really as much as it hurts me to say, you'd be best off finding someone else", "I know I've been so callous to you", "I'm not a good person, J.R.", "I know I should have told you how I was feeling a long time ago", etc. Yes, foggy, but her reality.<p>She admitted openly that I've changed, that her suffering has made me better. She half-joked that maybe that's her purpose: to make others better, that maybe she'll end up marrying and divorcing OM someday to help him somehow.<p>I made a strong effort to be supportive. I curled up to her, told her that I hope she can find a different perspective for things, that she is a good person, that I value her. She promised me that if her depression doesn't get better, she will seek out meds.<p>It was an exchange were she didn't get angry, was just clearly sad. She listened to me, almost like she used to, but was so insistent that she's a horrible person, that she's destined to bear this forever.<p>I'm really feeling like this is heading in a bad direction for some reason, even though I know separation is inevitable, and is probably an essential igredient. I fear she'll go, and suddenly not being around me will take a lot of the pressure off, re-inforcing the correctness of her actions. Or that OM will just make her feel better enough to reinforce it.<p>I'm also afraid of WW's ability to blame herself so very much, that she will see anything that she "gets" out of this as being her just "reward". She doesn't know how to heal, I don't think. She doesn't want to reach out to WS who have survived and rebuilt their M. Any happy WS who married their OM out there??? I didn't think so...<p>As for Plan B, I know it's time, I just wonder about the specifics now, what tailoring is actually appropraite. I guess I need SH's advice.<p>One thing I do know, I don't think I can do 18 months of Plan B. Sorry folks. She's a stubborn person, and if she's not back in 6 months, I know it's because she's going to hold onto OM come hell or high water. Even if she's not as happy as she could be. (In her foggy eyes, it'd have to be awfully bad to match the badness of our last few years.)<p>I'm not sure how to act around her right now. If I try to be happy (for myself even), it seems insensitive. If I act sad, it doesn't leave her with the best impressions of me. If I act... it just seems like I need to be away from her as much as she needs to be away from me right now. I hate this situation, even though I am coping.<p>Well... not really a vent, just kind of a sad dump of some more sad events.<p>[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

J.R.-<p>I thought I would share some perspective from someone that is counseling with Steve H. and who has moved to an 'in-house' Plan B.<p>My Plan A efforts were recognized by my WW and she said that I was doing a good job. Steve said that my efforts were commendible and that my W acknowledged them. Unfortunately, she continues contact with OM1 and with OM3 whom she tried to initiate an A with (he turned her down?) and she is in deep EA and PA (when they can get together) with OM2. My Plan A efforts, despite what my W said about them, did little to change her attitude about continued deceit and dishonesty and the relationships with OM. Remember, the relationships with OM2 and OM3 have been on-going right through counseling with SH.<p>I have moved to the 'in-house' form of Plan B. I can not leave the house without looking like I am abandoning the kids and she refuses to leave, despite me saying that I know she is being dishonest about the continuing affairs and with other issues like money. This is a very difficult way to proceed. If I could force her out, I would. So far though, I have not told her exactly what I know and I am trying not to be heavy handed. Maybe I am still enabling her. It is very difficult to cut yourself off from your WS during the 'in-house' Plan B and to not LB. This is not exactly helping me retain what love I have left for my W.<p>Please carefully consider your any Plan B efforts. Remember that it is an effort to help retain what love deposits there is left in your Love Bank. If this is already zero or is in the 'red', it may be too late for an effective Plan B. Also, consider how difficult an 'in-house' Plan B will be. I don't know if you have the option of leaving without giving up too much but you should talk with a lawyer first about your legal options. You want to make sure you understand the law before you go to Plan B.<p>Good luck. We're praying for you and hoping you don't need to go this route.<p>HoFS

It's funny how things can change hour-to-hour in these times of crisis. This morning, WW and I were talking pretty easily again. She seems to be coming in and out of the fog more frequently and radically now that the "pressure" is on, mainly from my talk with OM.<p>I debate with myself where to draw the line. Do I back off, or continue to allow reality to seap into her life. She hates reality. Makes her want to run away. (Ironically, running away will only add to it.)<p>HoFS, hmm, yeah that sounds tough to execute... I don't think I'll have a problem with that - she IS going to leave, I'm 99.99% certain now. Deep down she doesn't want to, but I think she feels she "needs" to in order to see if she'll miss me, etc. She claims it isn't to spend time with OM (said that he'll be a bit sad not being invited over for supper or to study). She even said that she was thinking of taking some vacation time to maybe visit her sister in Italy... I'd be all for that, if I thought she'd really use it constructively.<p>My thing with Plan B right now is yes, separation as part of it is looming. But should I give that some time, with contact, giving her a chance to "get it" before going to the atomic bomb of no contact.<p>[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

Hi HofFenceSitter<p>I saw your reference to an in-house Plan B. I have allowed my WS back into the house because I feared my original Plan A wasn't done properly( not enough time spent and much LB and tears. How do you separate when you're in the same house...physically, he's set up his own apartment in the lower level for privacy to continue contact with OW...phone and cybersex....He's traveling to see her a few times a month will not discuss limiting money spent on OW or discretion while in the house for children's sake.
I'm currently in a calm down-time because he's with OW now and will return in a few days. I'm going to try a 180 degree approach...hope I'm strong enough not to LB and lose all my love for him.
Wintergal

J.R.,<p>I, too, am thinking the Last Resort Technique that I've talked about here may be a good in-between strategy for you.<p>Your description of your W right now gives me the impression she is resigned to her fate and not willing to summon up the strength or motivation to do anything else proactive. Like she's just giving up treading water and ready to just allow herself to be pulled under.<p>It may be your instincts telling you something in regard to this, and I'm getting the same impression, that there is a danger that if you go to complete no-contact, she will just take that as a sign that this is what is supposed to be, that there's no going back. And especially if she's feeling like she doesn't deserve you taking her back.<p>So maybe an in-between time of LRT (please read up on this in The Divorce Remedy if you haven't already) is what is needed to see if there's any change in your W if you're not ready to give up completely.

What a difficult place to be in. Honestly I agree with whomever originally said that it may take moving out for your W to finally see all that you bring to her life. My H and I tried many many times to reconcilliate but until I had to tough it on my own for a while I never really could have total appreciation for what all he does bring to my life. It's more than just financial stuff...because I really enjoyed gaining some control in that area (which we now have integrated into our marriage). It's the littlest things. Anyway, it did occur to me that in your situation things are a bit different than in mine. For one thing I had friends who let me know they supported me but did not agree with my actions (and it makes a difference that they are married, if I remember right your wifes closest friend is single?)...as well as the support of a board that was full of personal growth and mature information. One of my friends came within a week of divorcing so she had tons of experience in the same type of situation. She never pushed her opinions or advice on me...just made little comments here and there and allowed me to ask if I wanted to know. A major difference is that we have a child. On the one hand that probly drug things on longer than it needed to be because we constantly used our son as a reason to go places together and "play house" on the weekends...instead of breaking ties totally and kicking us BOTH off the fence. But on the other hand it also "forced" us to interact in healthy ways...and we were constantly reminded of how much enjoyment we all get from being a family. I'm not positive things would have been the same if not for our son. Not that he's the reason we are together...but very possibly the thing it took to make us re-examine things.<p>I also remember someone else from the other message board I used to frequent that reminds me of you. He loved his wife very much, but she had many problems and she just wouldn't stop running. They divorced but remained friendly. Time went by...he met someone new. She was amazing, great, wonderful. The reason he came to the message board was because although he really loved this new woman in his life, he had started having "flashbacks" of his feelings for his ex. He "counseled" on our board for a while until he regained his wits. He realized that although he would always care for her, he could not help her, could not fix her, and had emotionally outgrown her. To go back to her would require taking many steps backwards. Soon after this she wound up leaving the OM she left him for (or he left her). She begged to have another chance. She realized what all she had lost. But it was too late. Last I heard he and his new love bought a house together and got engaged.<p>Yes, I feel very much that your wife has herself convinced that she is leaving to sort things out.... Once out reality will hit like a ton of bricks and if her running tendancies hold true she will run straight to OM. They won't work out...obviously. They have nothing going for them. But as long as she feels like she's got you "waiting it out" she'll think she can test the waters and come back if things don't work out. I think you're doing a very good thing by letting her know that just may not be the case. That you may not be living there, that you may just be out enjoying life... Give her a taste of that NOW!<p>Something else you wrote struck a cord in me. That she feels like she's there to bring about change in others. I've felt that EXACT same way before. Like I had "helped" my H by boosting his self confidence and bringing about ideas of growth and change...that I knew he would put into action in his NEXT marriage...and I felt that even if OM and I didn't work out, that I had finally bumped him off the fence of bachelorhood...I boosted his self confidence and gave him a taste of what family and love was about....like somehow everyone would benefit from it. I think that's hope mixed with confusion.....like the brain is trying to validate the pain and upheaval brought to all.<p>Anyway...I do hope she starts waking up. Take care.<p>[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: hope4future ]<p>[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: hope4future ]</p>

Well JR, my input would be to let your W do all the moving out herself and wish her well. You know my H moved out several times. It was important for me to have his stuff outside the home so I put it in the garage and on the lawn. <p>The first couple of times it was hard, putting his stuff out there and him screaming at me about touching his stuff. Well I touched his stuff to dust, wash and clean things he never grumbled then. Hm........so by the 3rd and 4th time, I started to wish him well. I said I really want you to be happy (see he was babbling about his being bad was for the other's good stuff also) and if abandoning your family and friends makes you happy then who am I to stand in your way. <p>I left it at that. Funny sometimes the WS doesn't want the BS to be happy, so I babbled back and wished him happiness. It confused and frustrated that man. I let him go with those words ringing in his ears. Periodically I would remind him that his happiness was important to me. In fact I said that more than 'I love you'. Why? because the OW was saying the I love you stuff also. I was NOT going to compete with a liar. I picked a different set of words to communicate with the WS. That love word to a WS looses it's meaning and it's strength. <p>Anyway, I noticed that the confusion helped clear the fog and eventually he was able to speak in a more rational manner. <p>Any of this make sense? Well it is mighty confusing to most. <p>JMHO,
L.

Well, latest... she came home yesterday and seemed really, really nice to me, was very talkative, wanted a hug, etc. - admitted if she goes, she might want to come back in 2 weeks, etc. - more reality shining on her - she's getting stressed just thinking about leaving. Of course, I have my boundary conditions, and they haven't changed last I checked.<p>Then this morning she says that she might be late tonight, has to help check OM's English on a paper... hmm, last time she used an excuse like that she %#@! him. So I'm not too happy - but not too upset either. More like, "yeah, whatever".<p>
Conqueror,<p>Yes, I've given that some thought, and it might be the most balanced approach. It allows the lines of communication to remain open, yet send all the signals that I'm moving on - which will be very true anyhow. When we started talking about Plan B, SH seemed to imply I might want a "tailored" Plan B - and LRT might afford that. In many ways, I've implemented lots of elements of it already, with varying results. With separation, I suspect its effectiveness may improve - she would be left with far more questions than she has right now.<p>hope4future,<p>I think you're right... not having children may be a reason for her to not be drawn to me... but, she also admits love for me, too. A friend of mine who's divorced now had a similar experience - his W left to be with OM, they had no kids, talked on the phone only 1-2 a month, he filed for divorce, it became final, then she
had her "awakening" - was prepared to do ANYTHING to get back with him, but by then, he'd moved on. Kind of sad, but them's the risks...<p>Mind if I ask you a question? I seem to recall that your H had found a girlfriend later in your separation. That plus your impending divorce seemed like possible motivators for you - is that fair to say? How did those things affect you? Not that I'm saying I'd be out to find myself a girlfriend, but there have been some interesting stories (e.g. CarolKH) out there that shows how things like the "Last Resort Technique" can really be effective.<p>Orchid,<p>Oh yeah, I'm not going to enable her like that... if she wants to go, she needs to do the hard stuff. She's claimed she wants very little - possessions and $ - and that's just fine by me. I don't want to "take advantage" of her, but hey - if she thinks it'll make her "feel better" to not "take my stuff" - then who am I to NOT want to make her feel better??! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Bumping this for my question to hope4future....

Never fear, JR, yours is the only story I really follow these days. Too busy to lend much help to others at this time, but yours is so similiar in so many ways to mine. I do try to check in and I'll scroll if I don't see you in the list :-)<p>Yes...definatly...his getting a girlfriend combined with the coming of the end was the final straw for me. For about 3 months prior I had been having thoughts that divorce was NOT what I really wanted. But I continued to wait to see if HE would initiate any opinions...and he did not. We still did "family" type things and when we did I felt very happy and hopeful. I was very close at this time with my friend who had been through a similiar situation. She was proof that some people WERE able to pull it together despite the odds and others opinions. It was still my thought that even if we did divorce, that maybe we could try again....clean slate...start over. To find out that he was already in the process of replacing me hurt very very deeply. All my feelings of not being loveable or valueable were confirmed, in my mind, by that. And all my fears felt like very near realities. Sharing my son with another woman was the most horrifying thought...but I didn't like the idea of "sharing" my H either. I guess I felt like this is it...**** or get off the pot...tell him you don't want a divorce and that you know you've been an A-hole, and if he doesn't want to reconcilliate...thems the breaks...you won't die. It was hard...I was hopeful and scared to death at the same time. What if it was just panic again? What if I was just acting on emotion? I didn't want to hurt any more, I didn't want to hurt him anymore, I didn't want to confuse our son anymore. I mean...every test...every counselor...all our friends agreed we are incompatible...yet...I still loved him. So...the heck with all the rest. Compatible smatible....I think it's 90% in the thought and effort that's put in. We ARE happy, and I'm NOT unfulfilled. We DO still need work...but you tell me who DOESN'T!<p>I didn't mean to imply that because you don't have kids that she's less likely to come back....just that you don't HAVE to continue to see each other like couples with children do...and that can work both for and against you. I think you would be very smart not to break off all contact...but at the same time it's important not to enable either (which is what we did big time, we maintained a comfort zone even while divorcing). The mysterious routine is a good one. Find a new hobby...meet some new people...be vague. Her comment about wanting to come back in 2 weeks was interesting...like she's trying to make sure and keep you hoping...keep you holding on... Definatly keep those boundries strong...<p>Anyway, Glad to hear you're still hanging in there. Feel free to email if you ever have any other questions and think I might not catch them (sometimes it gets pretty busy around here). Take care!