I'm just wondering if there are any BS's out there that decided to file for divorce as a last measure. If you read my "Change in the Wind" post you will know why I am asking this.<p>Divorce really scares me because I still love my wife deeply. But Steve has suggested that I prepare myself for this because of my kids. But it seems like I am giving up.<p>I guess what I am looking for is anyone that has filed and this act alone has snapped their WS out of the fog.

Afew people sugested that to me to "snap him out of it". I went to a lawyer, even started paperwork. Then something told me to STOP. I called the lawyer and had it called off. I'm so glad I did. Of course this depends on the individual situation, but I know my H and if money had started being spent on a divorce and the papers had been filed the chances of him coming back would have been considerably slimmer.

Please be careful on this. My friend gave a lawyer $3000 on retainer that she never ended up using. My H also visited a lawyer and thank God he didn't need him. Divorce quickly takes on a life of its own. You know what they say, marriage is for love, divorce is for lawyers.

Wow!<p>Two quick replies advising me AGAINST what I was starting to believe was some pretty good advice. Now I'm not so sure...<p>[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Always Hopeful ]</p>

Hi Always ~ I have some of the experience you are asking about.<p>Steve Harley recommended to me a year ago that I divorce my H. He did NOT recommend divorce as a method to "snap him out of the fog". Steve was serious, and told me that my marriage was over.<p>If Steve says you need a divorce, I'd listen very carefully. He's an extremely good judge of situations.<p>Never ever file for divorce unless you mean it. I don't mean that you have to WANT the divorce, I mean simply that you intend to carry through. Never use divorce as a method of control or manipulation.<p>In my situation, Steve suggested divorce for protection. My H was clearly still dating and spending money that we didn't have on other women. The emotional damage to me at the time was high, and my kids were in a yoyo state hoping that we were gonna get back together.<p>There is no legal separation in NJ. That was my only option. I'm glad I did, because in the end, my H did decide that he'd rather be married...BUT...the ONLY reason it worked was because I was serious, and he knew it. If he had thought I was playing games and trying to get him to "snap out of it", I'd be divorced right now.<p>I was completely and utterly ready to move on with my life. If I was instead writing to you now from the other side of divorce, I'd not be regretful about my decision.

Actually, I want to edit myself. I shouldn't have said "The only reason it worked"<p>That statement implies that I was divorcing my H with the intention of getting him to come home. I was not. The only reason that my H made a choice to be the husband I needed him to be was because he knew I was serious about divorcing him.<p>If Steve is suggesting divorce to you, I am confident that Steve is not suggesting divorce as a method to get your wife to stop what she is doing. He's taking the needs of your family seriously, and as I have always said, Plan A and the Harley plans are NOT about doormathood, and they do not belive that every marriage can be saved.<p>He's most likely telling you that it is time to start moving on with your life for the wellbeing of yourself and your children. Your wife is who she is, and isn't planning on coming around any time soon.

Have you skipped Plan B? I see that you've implemented Plan A in your signature line but nothing about cutting off contact from your W. Has this already happened? I would recommend this before filing papers. However, I would highly recommend you go learn about the law before you do anything. What are your options? Does your W have any options left since it appears she is the one that move out. You don't want to do anything that you are going to regret later because you didn't know the law. Going to an attorney and asking for legal advice is not the same as putting an attorney on a retainer.<p>HoFS

I served the D papers, but like Bramblerose, it wasn't a last measure to save my marriage, after 7 separations and finding new OW contact, I saw it as an acceptance that my marriage had been over for a long time. Having done an 18 month PLan A, I felt I had done everything I could, and my H was still walking out on me and seeking her.<p>If you begin a divorce, expect to get divorced, because it may be exactly what your WS wants, not to be the "bad guy" the one who finally called it quits. So, if you feel your marriage is truly over, you can stand being the one to really end it, serving the D papers is an option.<p>My H was shocked, I don't know why, he'd been telling me seriously for 6 months he was going to do it...he'd told the OW he was going to do it for over 2 years. My H did have a change of heart and wanted our marriage, but I wasn't so keen on the idea and we didn't reconcile for another 4 months until I had actually seen a consistant change in him.<p>Don't look at it as a last measure to save your marriage, it isn't, it is the ending.

A friend of mine did exactly that - filed for divorce in an effort to "shake" his WW out of her fog.<p>It didn't work. She had moved out, and they had contact 1-2 times a month, talked about issues and so on. He told her that if the divorce went through, that was going to be it... no looking back. He was expecting something from such a statement - probably his mistake.<p>Anyhow, the divorce did go through eventually. I think it was about 6 months or so after she moved out. Their talks stopped, obviously. It was a couple months later that she called him back, in tears, begging for another chance. He interpreted it as manipulation on her part - another mistake - it probably was her coming out of the fog. (Aparently her and OM had been fighting a lot at the time.) So he was done - no going back.<p>Now, I believe she's living with OM in TX, had his baby, but not sure if they're M or not. My friend thinks she's probably not really happy, but now that she has a baby, that'll keep her occupied for a while, as he puts it.

Always Hopeful,<p>I have filed against my WW. I have tried everything possible for the past 11 months to no avail. WW has told me that she does not want to try anymore over and over again. It's tough, but why stay with someone who does not want to be with you. Life is too short.<p>I think it was Sad Dad who said "I love my W, but not in love with her". That is the truth in my relationship with W. My love bank has dried up. It's sad, but life goes on. <p>You can do two things - Stay in the same situation and try to make it work or move on and start over.<p>Good Luck.<p>Dino

I think you should listen to the advice on the other thread and also from BrambleRose and Lor on this one. If Steve thinks you should file then there must be a pretty good reason for this. Also, I think you should expect to divorce...not to shake her out of the fog.<p>Think of your kids...they need you to protect them right now. I'm pretty confident you can gain custody of them. I'm not a lawyer, but from what I've heard the betrayed spouse usually has the odds on their side during a time like this. Also (although I hate to say this), in most states they will probably choose a heterosexual dad over a bisexual mother.<p>You've been through a lot, and it's been a long time for you. You've also put in a great effort. You should not feel like you failed.<p>Just my 2 cents...<p>-HD

Hey Always Hopeful,<p>I don't have time to read the other responses but from my own expericence, the Divorce is what saved my relationship with my FWS.<p>Long story(of course) but Plan B could not work for me. I had to see her daily because of our kids. I was LBing a lot, she was in the fog badly, we could never work on our relationship. She was being very selfish and used what was left of our marriage to take advantage of me. She used the kids and she used my love... because I still was madly in love with her and because I always did whatever the kids needed me to do no questions asked, I was always there, and she used it for her own benefits.<p>It wasn't until after the divorce, after I had custody of our children that she could no longer pull my strings. I realize I could have done more/better pre-divorce, but I was so confused/depressed that I didn't do what I should have done as far as the Marriage Builders concepts. But once everything was final, I was no longer her doormat, I didn't have to take her crap in the hopes of making her happy, I didn't have to do what she wanted me to do with the kids. They were now mine and I made all the decisions for them. I worked on me and my life with the kids, with no concern to her.<p>After the D, her OM lost interest fast. He didn't want her as a girl friend. He didn't want her all the time or at all once a new younger waitress started working "under" him. <p>We did have a false recovery at this time. See the things is, I still loved her, I still believed in a future in us. I always knew she'd want me back. But she was going through withdrawl badly and I didn't understand it enough to deal with it. I LB'ed a lot and we threw in the towel.<p>She hit rock bottom financially. She hardly ever kept the kids. And she saw me doing well financially, socially and mentally. I was moving on and doing great, I was happy and the kids were happy.<p>I always tried to be nice to her, just didn't help her out, until Christmas. I helped her buy some presents for the kids. It was at that time that she called me out of the blue one night. We talked a long time, flirted a bit, then I did the unthinkable... I asked her to come by that night. She did. <p>We saw each other everyday for the rest of December, then after New Year's weekend with my new girlfriend(longer story won't go into that [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) my FWS realized then that I can go on and be happy without her. I didn't need her.<p>Anyway, after the New Year's weekend, my FWS was doing everything in her power to convince me that she wanted me and our marriage back and that she was for real. I played hard to get, but I wanted the same thing... I always did, I always have(for the last 12 years). We are now living together(have been since Jan 03-02). We are in recovery and doing incredible.<p>Our relationship is stronger than it has been in years. We are totally in love and happy. We are still dealing with issues(triggers), but she is doing everything she can to make me feel safe and secure with her... and she's doing a great job... we are on the right path.<p>I would not look at divorce as a way to shake her out of the fog, but our relationship did not improve until the reality of me(and our children) moving on without her hit. A better Plan B could have done the same thing I guess, but it was failing bad and driving me crazy. A divorce shouldn't be a last resort to save your relationship, but it doesn't have to mean the end either.<p>Anyway, sorry about the long post, I didn't mean to ramble like this... it's a slow day at work today.<p>Good Luck!
Hope is a good thing!
JB<p>[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: kb4jb ]</p>

Dear Always Hopeful

Sorry about that - here is my story which is still in the making but for whatever it is worth I hope it helps! I filed for D two years ago after four months of finding out about A which had been going on for years. My H moved in with OW but of course we still had a lot of contact - I was an emotional mess and clung and begged etc -(I wish I had known about this site and so much more about afairs) Anyway, after seven months he came home - but he wasn't happy or remorseful - I withdrew my D papers. Just two months later I found out for sure that he was still seeing her and had not ended the A so I filed again in January, 2001. We have been separated over a year but he moved in again with the OW this past June when he realized I was going through with it this time. Since then he has totally detached from me and seems to be totally fine and moving on with his life. We had a pretrial two weeks ago and he now realizes how much he will lose. I need to end this marriage - I am so much stronger now and feel so hopeful and happy about my future - I do not have someone in my life and now I am so glad that I stuck it out and got through this without a relationship because I am so much happier with me, In a few weeks we should come to a resolution. Sometimes I do think that possibly he will come out of the fog but honestly, I am totally prepared to go through with the D. In fact I seriously feel that if he does come out of it before the D that I will not take him back - I would really need to see major changes - not only with his A which would have to end - but with him - I now know that I deserve to have my needs met too and there would be a lot of renotiating of the relationship. Do I still love him, absolutely - but have learned to love myself first - and for him as well as myself, I am not backing down because I know that no matter what my future looks wonderful with or without him. Hope this helps you - I'll keep you posted as to what happens! Carebear

BR-<p>Thanks for you input. It was exactly what I was looking for.<p>Perhaps using the words "as a last measure" was a poor choice. I don't intend to use filing as a ploy to get my wife back. I was really just looking for some success stories that could have come out of such an action. I am glad things worked out for you. <p>Steve did tell me that if I filed, I must be prepared to go all the way through with it. If I choose that route, I will be deadly serious. I've got to admit that after only two days of thinking about it, I'm heading in that direction. The way I see it, I still love my wife with all my heart. I don't love the woman she has become. She has put herself before her marriage and her family regardless of the costs.<p>I do believe, although I know I cannot count on it, that Steve is thinking that my wife will try to stop me once she realizes the consequences. There are two careers at stake here, not to mention their reputations. If you only knew what great lengths they have gone to cover things up here you would see what I mean.<p>The only way I would put a stop to this is if she unconditionally agreed to give up the OP and work on our marriage. I would be lying if I said I wasn't hoping and praying that will happen. I certainly cannot go on this way nor let my kids be effected like this.<p>The hard part is still being in Plan A and thinking about doing this. How do I talk to my wife? I've been sending her occassional cards and am always interested in how she is doing. Do I treat her any differently?<p>HofenceSitter-<p>As I said before, Steve doesn't believe Plan B would help in my case. If you followed my story long enough, you would know I made a rather feeble attempt at Plan B about a year ago. I didn't follow through with it because I believed it was detrimental to my daughters.<p>JB-<p>Don't be sorry about the long post! I can only hope my situation turns out remotely like yours...<p>Thanks again to all...<p>[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Always Hopeful ]</p>

Always Hopeful - I can give you the type of response you are looking for, but please don't do it unless you are fully prepared to follow thru without regret.<p>My d-day was 4/10/99. During that weekend, W was truly sorry and we agreed to get joint counseling. The next week, I made an appointment with a therapist. After I told her this, she decided she didn't want joint, only individual. She didn't know what she wanted.<p>I moved into an apartment for four months(5-9/99) because she wanted some time alone to "think things out" and was really having trouble moving out herself.<p>I returned to the home Labor Day weekend over her objections. I was simply sick and tired of "apartment living" and told her she could have the apartment if she wanted to be alone. During the whole time I was away, I kept indicating I wanted MC, but she kept refusing. I gave her two weeks after I moved back. Four times during my absence and once after I moved back, she agreed to therapy only to decide against it a day or two later(I honestly believe OM talked her out of it).<p>After the last reversal, I told her that I couldn't take the fence-sitting any more and I filed for divorce. I knew that I was ready. I brought the paperwork home for her to prevent the embarrasment of being "served". She went to see a lawyer two weeks after I gave her the papers. She returned from her attorney and informed me that they had responded to my petition with a request for joint counseling!!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>We decided to use her IC because that was all she would use(WRONG DECISION). But, even while we were doing the MC, we continued to fill out all the required divorce paperwork, most often, together(kinda surreal).<p>The MC didn't work because W had misled her about the state of things between her and OM. After six or so sessions, we gave up because it wasn't going anywhere.<p>After this(Nov 99), W started making loud noises about needing to be out on her own. I argued against this because it's so much harder to work on things when you are separated.<p>A couple of weeks after we told MC we were quitting(she was still W's IC), I scheduled a solo session where I set her straight about what was really going on with W and OM. I also had her talk to my IC. An aside here is that MC told my IC that OM was just an "altruistic" friend. Luckily the counselors talked before my solo session so I was able to give her evidence about how "un-altruistic" OM was.<p>Well, I didn't think she believed me, but in her session with my W three weeks later, she told W that there was no point at all trying to work on the marriage with OM in the picture. This pretty much destroyed W and she was now adamant to move out.<p>By now, we have only the property settlement agreement to complete and the divorce can be made final. I told her all along that the D was not what I wanted, but if things weren't going to change, it was what I needed.<p>The last weekend she went into one of our spare bedrooms and closed the door. I knocked and entered with her permission and found her sobbing. I asked what was wrong and she said, "sometimes, we are perfect together"...It began to dawn on me that she didn't want this divorce, but I didn't really say anything substantial.<p>She ended up signing a six-month lease on an apartment on our anniversary(7 Jan, which she completely forgot). She kept telling me and everyone else she needed to move in. I enlisted a friend of ours and we moved in enough furniture to make it comfortable for her.<p>She kept delaying moving in and starting to say, "this doesn't feel like the right thing to do, but I have to do it for me"...I tried to support her by saying if that's what you want and need, I'll help you anyway I can.<p>In addition to delaying her move out, she kept dragging her feet on completing the property settlement, so the divorce couldn't proceed. However, she continued telling me she didn't know what she wanted and wouldn't restart MC.<p>Finally in mid-May, after an argument, I told her she was moving that day. I starting gathering up the last things she would need. She spent an hour or so crying and then helped me finish up. It took both our cars to bring over the food, toiletries, etc. and we got it all unloaded. I then left her there and returned home. She called later and eventually asked if I would spend the first night with her. I didn't really think it was a good idea, but it has always been hard for me to refuse her, so I did...and the next night and the next, etc. for the first week. I had to go out of town the next week, so she came back to the house to watch our cats. After I returned it took her two weeks to move to the apt again, and again, circumstances forced her back to the house a week later...<p>All in all she spent about four weeks in that apartment and every night asked me to come over and stay the night with her. I never went unless she asked, because I wanted it to be her choice...<p>As for the divorce, now her excuse to not completing the paperwork was that she was starting to feel it was the "wrong thing to do", and she could use living in the apartment as an excuse to not have the time...<p>By now, we are getting into late summer/early fall and she is finally starting to tell me that she wants to work on the marriage. She let the apartment go after the lease was up.<p>She started indicating to me that she didn't really want the divorce to go thru. I said I would like to withdraw the petition if she did, too. I made this statement several times over a few months and almost every time got the response, "Do it if that is what you want". I would answer that that unless it was agreed to by both of us, I wanted the process to continue.<p>Finally in Oct '00 we were both mailed a notice that unless either of us responded with a dissent, the petition would be dismissed by the judge at the end of Nov due to "non-prosecution". I asked W about this and she just wanted to let it go. I kept saying that I would feel better if we proactively dismissed it, but she refused. The dismissal date came and went without our even noticing it.<p>So that's the story. Filing did make my W start to face things, but that was not my intent. I had thought that it was a possibility, but made sure I didn't count on it. I was a lucky man.<p>The really odd thing is that we were discussing Plans A&B the other day and I told her that I had refused to do "B" even though almost everyone here thought that the best thing to do. I gave her the same reason I gave here, that I felt that my implementing Plan B would cause W to think I had given up(no matter what the letter said) and she would give up also. She told me that I had it exactly right, that had I started a Plan B, she would have pushed to finalize the divorce.<p>Really weird, huh????<p>Anyway, sorry for the long narrative, but I am rather long-winded....

DeWayne,<p>Thanks for you heartfelt story.<p>My wife actually moved out almost a year ago. It was hard at the time because she took my daughters with her for the first week. Every arrangement we made, custody, sharing the car insurance bill, etc. went so smoothly. We didn't even, and haven't yet to this very day, prepare or sign any type of written separation agreement. We have done agreed to just about everything by suggesting and talking things out. there wre a few bumps, notably around the holidays. But we always were able to settle things. <p>This year she has had some severe medical problems with her ears. She's had tubes put in, only to have them fall out at least three times. There have been days where she was in tremendous pain. One of these just happened to be Valentine's Day. It was her week with the girls and I called to tell her I had some little things for her and the girls. She snapped back at me, telling me that by getting her something was "bordering on abuse". She called back about twenty minutes later and apologized. Being in my car at the time, I nearly ran off the road. My wife almost never apologizes for anything. I was actually thinking up to a couple of weeks ago that we might be making some progress.<p>This whole reversal on Steve's part started because I told him my wife had finally bought a washer and dryer for her place after being there a year. He seems to think that is showing long term plans on her part. I tried to make the point that she could always sell the washer and dryer if she moved out. But that may be wishful thinking.<p>All in all, I've received some pretty good advice here. In the end, we all have to make our own decisions...