For the past couple of weeks I have been reading much on this site and trying to soak up as much information as I can here. This is my first post. Here’s my story, I’m sorry it’s long, but I need some outlet…<p>Since the birth of our daughter 2 ½ years ago, my relationship with my wife of almost 7 years, has been steadily deteriorating. Although we thought we’d worked through our issues prior to having a child, it seems all that has come flooding back. Despite the fact that we were in therapy, it got to the point in mid-February that she said she thought we should try a trial separation. I could tell at this point that she was struggling with it.<p>On Feb 24 I was setting up a new computer for her new employee at her office, and looked around at her Inbox. Although I guess found what I was looking for, I was shocked to find that she had been corresponding with OM (from a city at the other end of the country) whom she’d met in Vegas in Oct when she took her staff on a perk trip. The emails were suggestive and supported the fact that the previous weekend when she had gone on a soccer tournament to a city some 100 miles away, she had traveled a further 100 miles to another city and met and over-nighted with OM, who happened to be there on business. When I immediately confronted her, she denied it, but eventually admitted they spent the night cuddling. Things in the past were starting to make sense. Last fall she changed her email password, and asked me to change our home computer so that her email wouldn’t go there – she said she was receiving a lot of viruses at work and didn’t want to sent them home. I thought this was a little suspect, but I played along.<p>After the initial confrontation she suggested we needed to separate because she needed her space. I was totally devastated. I took responsibility for my part in this, and she admitted that I was handling this amazingly (her words). She said she wasn’t going to communicate with him anymore and that she had told him that I’d found out, and that he apologized for his part. She said she missed spending time by herself and that before we were together she used to go on shopping trips alone. I thought it might do her some good to get away and relax by herself. In the next few days, I snooped in her email again and found this trip was actually a plan to get together with OM in Florida, and that more happened on, ‘soccer-weekend’ that she admitted. Again, I was gutted. She said she just didn’t want to hurt me, and that she really wanted to go. I just can’t stand the thought. She wanted me out of the house, and so I moved out to our lake cottage (2 hour daily commute and all) last week. With her soccer, yoga schedule and with our daughter, she suggested I could look after our daughter a couple of nights when her schedule would get her home late, and I could just stay at home those nights. After a friend suggested moving back in to prevent OM’s easy access to my wife I did just that. Although she admits that I am exhibiting many of the things she had wanted in me all along, she is done. She says it’s too late, and she wants me out. This past weekend she brought up going to Florida again with OM (Thursday is departure day), saying she needs to get it (him) out of her system and that it would be the best thing for us. I said I wouldn’t be able to be here for her if she did go, and now she has said she won’t go. She now says she wants me to let her go (in the sense of, ‘letting go’) and that I should get out of the house sooner rather than later. She is continuing to email and phone OM. I don’t know who she is anymore, and I don’t trust anything she says. I’ve talked to her about EN and in fact she even completed the EN questionnaire last night. I know I can meet those EN’s but she won’t give me the chance, she’s so wrapped up in her decision to move-on and is focussing on all the times, she says she’s tried in the past. The easiest thing to do is quit. I don’t want to quit on this, I think our relationship is salvageable if we let it be. But, at what point do I need to save myself from the hurting? How do I keep trying? I'm worried about separation as Dr. Harley suggests it doesn't help.<p>I haven’t even addressed my feelings on how this affects our child, but this post is long enough.<p>What should I do?<p>JI<p>[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Julio Iglasias ]</p>

I don't think you should leave your home and daughter. If she wants to disrupt the life you two have built together, that is her choice, so it should be her changing her own living arrangements if she doesn't want to live with you. I would not accommodate that request.<p>In fact, I tried to get my H to move out a couple months ago, and he refused, so that left me in the position of having to file court papers to try to obtain a court order to get him out. Fortunately, my H decided to participate in marital recovery rather than have me file the papers. But what I'm saying is that she probably cannot make you leave without a court order or evidence of domestic violence.<p>You can Plan A: No LBs and meeting her ENs that she allows you to meet. But I would stop initiating all talk about the M, the A, the OM, etc., and live your life (at least in her presence) as if you are ready to work on the M whenever she is ready, but while she's not, you'll get on with your life. Pleasant, friendly, upbeat. No clinging, pleading, bargaining, questioning, etc.<p>As far as the Florida trip, it's her life and her decision. It's up to you to decide what you will do in response to her decision. As Dr. Harley says, most affairs die within 6 months of seeing the light of day, so you can choose to ride that time out in Plan A, then go to Plan B if she still chooses not to participate in marital recovery.<p>The important thing to keep in mind is that you must not give any ultimatum you are not committed to following through on. When you said if she went, you "wouldn't be able to be here for you". What does that mean to you? And most important, what does it mean to her? What expectations have you created in her with that statement, and are you ready to follow through on it?<p>[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

You poor man - I wish I had good advice for you but all I can say is hang in there. My H came home almost 2 months ago and told me he just didnt love me and wanted out to "think" I fought it and he is still with us and in counsling. I found out about the OW about 2 weeks later. It has been the hardest thing I've ever lived through but I'm finding that the more I learn, the more I understand why people have A's and what we as loving spouses wanting to keep our families together can do. Even when my H doesnt want to hear it I remind him daily that I love him and want to make this work.

Thanks for the reply Conquerer, I appreciate your comment. I did get the impression from reading on this site, that I shouldn't leave -- I think I needed someone to confirm that. When I mentioned to her that she was the one having the EA and she should leave, she got very angry and said this type of thing was why we'll never work, as I'm not meeting her need for, 'space'. She says she doesn't want to hate me, but the way I'm acting, she says she's likely to end up that way. Perhaps the problems I've been having this week are probably from not refraining from LB's. I'm still pretty numb, but after your post I visited the Basic Concepts section again.<p>She's already talking about lawyers, etc. Although I'm committed to not adversely affecting our daughter through this, I can see this is going to be very complicated.<p>As for her trip to Florida, I'm already battling the demons, if she goes, I hate to think...<p>Thanks for the kind support rdvpmm.

JI,<p>I think she's manipulating you to get her cake and eat it too. She wants the family but isn't sure if she wants you. But the fact is, you're not ready to lay down and die like she wants you too. I like Conquoror's post. It's chock full'o what I think you should do. Pack up. Move back in. Tell her you're not giving up that easily.<p>I used this before. One time, I told my H if he wasn't going to appease me (not in those words) then he could sleep on the couch. He told me, "No, you've got the problem, you sleep on the couch." Now, you know I couldn't move him, couldn't pick him up and carry him to the couch. So either I would sleep in the bed with him, or on the couch alone. I gained respect for him then. Stand your ground. If nothing else, she will have respect for you and your devotion to your child.<p>Hoping<p>PS. welcome to MB [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hoping4future, do you think I should actually try and sleep in our bed? I had been sleeping in the spare room. Perhaps I should suggest she try the spare room if she doesn't like it?<p>JI

JI,<p>I love that. I'm sorry but I am laughing. No, I just meant that you should move back in. But, hey, if you want the bed too, go for it. It's your house too right?<p>My H's manager had this girlfriend. He owned the house before she moved in. So, anyway, they get into a fight, and she kicks him out...OF HIS OWN HOUSE!!! The guy is a slinky. I don't think you are. I mean, this is your wife and she has equal right. But this was a girlfriend. But, I don't think you should leave just cuz she wants you to. What do you think? What are you gonna do? I'm hooked on your story now. I want it to work out for you so badly. Wish I had a band-aid big enough.<p>Hoping

OK OK, I know I'm a bit of a newbie. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] My world has been unyielding lately. I think...rather...I am going to initiate Plan A. I'm going to live there, be with my daughter, try to meet whatever needs she'll let me meet, and really try to avoid LB's (right now that'll be tough though). I'll keep posting and I look forward to your thoughts. Thanks.

Julio,<p>How are you doing today? I prayed for you last night. Did you feel it? <p>I guess you are packing. Okay, I'll let you go now.<p>Hoping

I loved your story about the couch, Hoping! When my H refused to move out, even though it frustrated and angered me at the time, in hindsight I can see that it took a lot of strength for him to do that. He's more of the you-can't-fire-me-I-quit type of person in that if he suspects someone of rejecting him, he'll try to beat them to the punch.<p>For him to stand up to me and fight for the M like that when I was totally and completely rejecting him took a lot of courage facing down his own emotional demons. It showed me how much he wants this M which, even though it screwed up my plans, gave me some security knowing how committed he was to keeping the M intact.<p>Julio,<p>I agree that moving back into your own home and your own bed is the way to go, but I would refrain from any remarks about it. I would just quietly and confidently go about my normal everyday business as if I was a "normal" married person who lives in their own home and sleeps in their own bed.<p>When she challenges you, don't say anything confrontational like, "Well, if you don't like it, you can sleep somewhere else." because that will escalate things and make it difficult to avoid LBs. I think something like my H's approach is less "arguable". He said, "It's my home, and I'm going to live here." He didn't say anything about me or what I should do.<p>So, when she tries to bait you, you can just become a broken record. <p>W: What on earth are you doing?!!!!<p>Julio: This is my home, and I am going to live here.<p>W: This is why it will never work. It always has to be YOUR way.<p>J: (saying nothing while calmly unpacking and putting his things away.)<p>W: You say you want to meet my needs, but then here you are invading my space!<p>J: I hear you.<p>W: You can't do this. If you really cared about me, you'd give me the space I need.<p>J: Mm-hmm. Anything else?<p>W: I'm going to call an attorney and get you out of here.<p>J: Nevertheless, this is my home, and I will be living here.<p>W: If you continue to do this kind of thing, I'm going to end up hating you.<p>J: Regardless, I am going to live in my home.<p>W: Well, I'm going to go to Florida then because obviously you don't care about me or what I want and this M is OVER!!!<p>J: Anything else?<p>W: So you just want me to get a divorce then?<p>J: No, I do not.<p>W: Then why are you doing this to me?!<p>J: I love you. I love our daughter. And I am going to be here for my family.<p>It is impossible to argue with a person who is deflecting--"Regardless", "Nevertheless"--and sponging--"Mm-hmm.", "I hear you.", "Anything else?" "You already said that."<p>As long as you stay on your course and remain calm, quiet and confident, she will have a new reality to deal with. She can hop and dance and carry on, but eventually she'll have to settle on her own course of action and make her own choices without benefit of your cooperation in the decisions she wants to make that are not in the best interest of the family.

Hoping4future, thanks for your prayers. You know, I think last night and so far today, I think I do feel better. Last night she was all worried that I was going to be at her for checking her email, talking to her about the M, etc. and was prepared to stay in a hotel. I said that I had no intention of making her life miserable, but if she thought she needed to stay in a hotel she was welcome. She immediately picked up on new my attitude, and wondered what was up. I said that I would be treating her with love and respect. She was working on the computer most of the evening after I put our daughter to bed, and I wasn't able to post last night. I do think things went well last night though.<p>Conqueror, Wow, that's great input. The dialogue is extremely helpful. I think that conversation will probably happen very soon. The last time it happened, which was over the weekend, I wasn't quite as prepared as I will be this time.<p>I thank God for you people and this site.<p>JI

Here's a bit of an update…(this is a little detailed, but I think sometimes the details help speak volumes) Last night I got home just after 8 and just in time to put our daughter to bed. While I was at Costco earlier in the day, I picked up a case of her favorite popcorn for her. On the way into the house, I wedged a carwash ticket into the door of her car, as I know she rarely has the time to deal with washing her car. Last weekend I took some photos of my daughter and I together, and she had just picked up the film. I think the combination of these little things made an impact on her. She hugged me and gave me a couple of pecks on the cheek. Later in the evening she wanted to talk, and confessed that indeed she thought I had been correct when I said she would need to break contact with OM in order to gain proper perspective and the clarity she said she needed. She had lessened contact and what contact had continued, apparently had not been of such a, ‘personal’ (or perhaps more appropriately, intimate) nature. She said she had been thinking and wondering how she could get, ‘it’ back for me. I said it would take some effort, but that I would be there for her. She then proceeded to say that she still wanted to separate, and further, wanted to put the separation in the form of an agreement. Huh? I don’t get it. Was the rest all a ruse? Anyway, I probably allowed myself to be drawn into this conversation. When I sensed that it was going in the wrong direction I said that I had no intention of making her angry or making her cry, and said good night. Probably ½ hour later she came into the spare room where I was almost asleep, crawled into bed with me and said that maybe I just didn’t understand that she wanted to separate and that she was prepared to go see our MC so the MC could help explain. Huh? Again, I don’t get it. I don’t need a translator, and I could be wrong but I’m sure any MC probably wouldn’t want to touch this. Anyway, she stormed out of the spare room and said that she would be announcing to all her friends and family that we were done (to this point she wanted to keep it mostly between us).<p>Part our childcare schedule has me dropping off our daughter in the morning. This morning she just took the initiative to drop her off and left the house before me, which is quite unusual. As I was leaving, I noticed she had taken the keys to both her office and her car off my key ring. I’m a little bummed. I thought we were making a bit of progress.<p>What do you guys think?<p>JI

[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] Huh?<p> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] What?<p>I don't get it either. But, don't let her take your little girl. Just keep plan Aing her. You can do it. Don't let her make you move out. And I wouldn't let her take my baby. But, if there will be arguing, then do think of your DD's feelings. I think you should suggest that if she wants her (which it sounds like) and you want her, that you live in the house until she has made up her mind completely. And let her know that you will fight for your dd, gently. Also, if it is normal for her to pick her up, then I would do that. Pick up your DD from school. If she asks why you did that, say, "I thought since you took her to school, I should pick her up." That way she isn't able to use the fact that you haven't been fulfilling that duty against you.<p>Also, I was wondering what you think contributed to the A and this breakup? Maybe others and I could help more if we know the whole situation.<p>Hoping

Hoping... She has been adamant that she's not going to move out. She says she's put her heart and soul into our home. She designed it, we finished it, etc. But, it was for US it was always OUR home. I don't want this to turn into the, 'War of the Roses.'<p>What's a DD? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Here are some of the issues/history facing us...<p>When we first got together, I had just made a career change. She had been seeing a guy I was involved in business with, who was the major (I was minor) shareholder in some commercial real estate. That relationship was flawed from the onset. It was a fling while he was almost un-married. She and I worked together on projects, clicked as friends and then the light came on for us. She made sure the other thing was over. As a result, he pushed me out of the company, and I was unable to sell my portion of the shares for some time. I took on another business partner and started about building another business from scratch. It was an extremely tough slog. The detrimental effect my economic situation had on our new M was enormous. She had an already successful business, had a certain amount of economic independence, and was clearly frustrated by the fact that I was struggling to make mine work. In short, she was only emotionally supportive at the very beginning. Soon after, I think resentment started to grow. I never wanted anything from her, I guess I needed to make my business work for me and for other obvious reasons. I stuck it out for as long as I could. I finally caved and took a job with a firm which had been trying to recruit me for a long time. I felt I compromised myself for her and our relationship, and I was prepared to do that, but she doesn't acknowledge this.<p>With the new company, I began to make a significant income, which I think led to a closeness for us. We both felt like things were as good as ever, and had a child. The child added a new dimension for us. Two career people, new roles, etc. She had a big adjustment to make. I had a big adjustment to make, and it probably took me until last fall (daughter's 2 1/2) to completely make it. <p>My business venture resulted in my accumulation of significant debt, a lot of which with the success I've had since, I've been able to reduce. My biggest problem now, and this is a big worry for her is that I've got a significant income tax problem that I'm working on with the authorities. She of course thinks I'm irresponsible, and perhaps in keeping her out of my financial affairs I have been. Since the light came on for me, I've recognized these are EN's for her (openness, financial stability/responsibility). In addition, My tax debt, although significant, will be retired within a very short time.<p>And...I'm not happy in the job that I'm in, and I'm being recruited again and will probably take the job soon, which will mean another pay increase, but shouldn't that help things? <p>There's a ton of financially related issues. How I contribute to household expenses, etc. No matter how I account for everything I pay, she always thinks she is contributing more. She forgets when I cut her big lump sum cheques to ensure things are even. She forgets the huge property tax bill I pay every spring, the heating, electric, cable, internet, insurance, all of our lake cottage expenses. She says she doesn't believe those expenses are as much as the mortgage on our house that she is servicing. I'm wired differently than her, and I've told her this. She's totally wrapped up in, 'equal' financial contribution while if I paid (or in times past if I had the ability to pay) for everything without her contribution I would be just fine with it. I have just tons of examples of doing things to, 'even' the financial score to her benefit... I overpaid her by thousands for her car when I bought it from her. When I traded into a new lease, I put a significant amount down. When I allowed her to exercise the option to purchase, she received another benefit worth thousands. When I showed her the spreadsheet (which I only did at her request) she said she wasn't sure it was correct. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>This is all relevant because we built the house during the time I was trying to establish my business. She did make it happen, but, I was there everyday making sure the trades completed the correct work, and on time. Although she has been making the mortgage payments I do have equity invested as well. She conveniently forgets about all the specifics.<p>I've always thought the way we have separate finances has only served to separate us.<p>JI

JI,<p>This has been an issue for my H and I as well. I forget that he is the one doing the bills sometimes. I am a SAHM (stay-at-home-mom) and have two DD's (dear daughters) and a DS (dear son). It can get rather sticky around here since we have large debt compared to H's income. I have had to let him have the bills because it seemed like he would spend it without asking or telling me about it. Even after he stopped doing that, anything I couldn't account for, I blamed him. I would tell your W if she didn't think everything was right, that she should check it herself. Besides, marriage is not the place for financial games. It's obvious that you aren't slacking and I think that may be what she's thinking is happening, that she is carrying you financially. I don't have any words to help this, because I don't think she's being reasonable. Just as I am not always reasonable with my H re financial matters. But if that's the burden she is carrying, I think it is in your best interest to show her the truth and go through it step-by-step. Perhaps you can beat her to the punch by getting a mediator. The mediator might help her realize your contributions. And/or she could hire an accountant to see where everything falls.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Posted by JI:
I overpaid her by thousands for her car when I bought it from her. <hr></blockquote><p>Now tell me why a H would have to pay his W for her car? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I hope I have given you something to work with. I don't understand this situation from her point of view very well. I know I have been rather judgmental to my H, but we make significantly less money than you and your W (or so I would think, we can't even afford a lease on a car, partly due to debt).<p>Hoping

Hoping4future, <p>Thanks for listening. I'm in a bit of a down cycle today. This is such a rollercoaster -- it's brutal. I was thinking last night I should put together and itemized list of what I've spent, all the things I purchased, etc. to show her. Then, I wonder if it would be a positive thing to do right now. But then again, she's been deluding herself so long by talking herself into these feelings as if they were true, perhaps it need to come out. Or, should it wait? I'm really screwed up right now. I have deadlines at work. I can't concentrate. My income depends completely on discipline and motivation, and I have almost none.<p>Again, thanks for listening...<p>JI

So, here's a bit of an update...<p>She calls me on my cell on Friday and wants to go see the MC. Of course I agree. This is the first time she has to own up to her actions in front of someone impartial, which I acknowledge took guts. She proceeds to make her case for a separation (which I had thought might be the case). The MC suggests she can have her, 'space' with me in the house. I mention, and the MC agrees that in order for her to have, 'space' she should break contact with OM. She agrees to these things, and we go away with the MC suggesting we seek individual counselling, which we both agree to do. The next day, yesterday, she spends all morning at the computer composing some type of letter (I had hoped it was to OM telling him to take a hike). It turns out it was to me, telling me that we have different goals and that she is sorry she has tried to impose them on me. She says she had an epiphany when in the MC session the MC said that the way we handled our finances indicated that we were never in the same track. She still wants me to let her go, and she says she's sorry for the way things turned out. I seem to be getting drawn into conversations with her talking about the M, which I think is a LB. I read her some of the first chapter of the book, 'Relationship Rescue' by Phil McGraw. It talks about building things, and that if there's a will to make a change in the relationship there is a way. It seemed to go in one ear and out the other.<p>Later last night, I gave her a big hug, and she started to cry. Am I crazy, or is she just still all mixed up? She says she loves me, but has, 'lost it' for me, and doesn't know if she can get, 'it' back for me. Later that evening we talked again and she wanted me to wear my wedding ring (we both hadn't worn them that day -- which was very unusual) as she said we still were married. She said at least while I was still living there. She talked about wanting to have sex, but didn't want to send me mixed signals. What does this all mean? Is sex an LB at this point? I need human connection, to touch, feel. I want to be loved (I do have needs as well).<p>I am very confused about all this [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] . Does anyone have any comment or insight?<p>JI

I don't know what to say to you. I hope it works out. Keep planAing and just wait, is all I can think of.<p>Hoping

Hoping, thanks for listening over the last week. I really needed someone to vent/talk to and you were there.<p>JI