To those who are helping Gen: Let's try to give her examples of how to stay a step ahead of Harley on what he expects during his recovery. I don't want to spell it out, because it is her effort that will make the difference, but we could give examples.<p>Gen,<p>I think you are doing well. I hope that things stay as smooth as possible during this time, until you get your "sea-legs." Are you still planning to go to Canada with H? When will that be?<p>Hoping

Great idea H4F. My two cents worth;<p>I told my W everything. I had blocked out some stuff but it wasn't memory loss just guilt avoidance. I remembered eventually but it took long hours of sitting with myself. I told my W the really painful stuff too ... things like how I would use my daddy day with my son to meet her. I told her things OW would say about me and about BS... the list goes on and on. I know this hurt her but it would have been so much worse for her to find out on her own or from a friend.<p>Instead of getting angry at her snooping I looked at it as a chance to show her I was finally doing the right thing. I gave her all my voice mail numbers at work, pager codes, email and computer passwords. I had all my work mail forwarded to home. We also traded cell phones and cars. I had to drive the Hyundai for 6 months and the cd player broke the day I started using it I guess our Lord dished out some punishment for me. <p>I did everything possible to show her I loved her. I bought her flowers and brought her gifts all the time. I sent her love letters and emails all the time. I approached my BS as a woman I was trying to win over for the first time. Almost every day I thanked her for giving me the chance to make it up to her. I took it upon myself to assume she needed to know that I truly understood how close I came to losing my family for OW and I did.<p>I approached myself differently. When I was having an affair my operating system was to lie, avoid, hide, and if neccessary tell half truthes lead her away from the real truth. everything was deception with my reward being OW and my secrets. Now my operating system is radical honesty, confronting issues, disclosure and striving to be a better husband and love. <p>Hope this helps Geneveive. BTW how have things been lately? <p>FallinD<p>BTW
Are there any other WS's out there who care to share on this subject? The more I read about Geneveive the more interested I get in individual recovery and what steps have worked and what have not.

H4F and FD, thank you for your guidance and support....u have no idea how much i need that....i mentioned to H4F that last night i did good by talking to H about OM and what he was like and who he was and certain details that i kept blocked out before. I am sure that there are other stuff that needs to be unlocked from that part of my brain and i sure am trying hard to remember what they are....guilt aviodance or psychological defense, its the same thing....i still take a while to remember certain details. But i am working on it.<p>Today was a good day at work. There wasnt much to do and i left the office when i said i would. However we have had another development since last night......for the benefit of FD and others whom i have not updated in a couple of days, last night i opened up to H a little more than i ever had and i felt good about the disclosure. Then by some strange twist of fate, i had a call from my aunt and she said that she was going to help me with my finances so that i can get out of here with H to Canada! That was a huge relief for us bcos we have been trying to figure out how i was going to get out of here for the longest time. Now the light seems a little brighter. <p>However, as it always seems to happen, just when things seem to go right, another challenge has put itself in front of us. This is what we have been planning to do....i was to leave S'pore with H, we would sort out domestics over in Vancouver, he will be back on his business trip to Spain in May and i would join him late May. From there, we will work out what to do bcos he would be travelling for the best part of the rest of this year and i would be by his side. However, he has just had news that the trip to Spain has been postponed and that his work will start in June but in S'pore instead! So i / we are now confused as to what to do bcos if i go to Van and we stay there a while, then he has to come back here and it would defeat the purpose of me leaving in the first place, esp if he has to come back here....is this all confusing for you? I told H that i could stay in Van while he came back here for work but getting a job there for me would be almost impossible.....<p>There is one option for me though...the only job that would be available for me is if i worked for his ex (who is also the mother of his only S) and his best friend's wife (who knows what has happened with the us since). I dunno what to do now bcos i will be leaving my job to go to Van and only to find out that i could stay until H eventually leaves S'pore in Sept. god, i really dont know what to do...perhaps someone has a suggestion? <p>FD, you have been very supportive and i value your opinions and suggestions. I have since given H all my voicemail codes, email passwords and cell phone codes. I have given up all to him. Its been 3 days since i have been back to the office and although i know that i have said this before, i also know that i have not had the urge or the desire to call OM at all.....i have not had any temptation whatsoever....<p>Keep posting....i am here.

bumping
[img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

i am bumping this up again for attention bcos we just had a small LBing session. It hurts me to see that H is like a time bomb. We have had a couple of good days since and today was looking to be as good until we had the news (read above thread) and now we are just being silent and LBing and i am PMSing (i have very bad PMS and get very *****y and sarcastic) which is still not a reason to be LBing but i have been like a time bomb myself. Everyone of you have been so good with your support and encouragement and u have had a calming effect on me. However with all this new developments, its boiling the blood inside. <p>I know i should not be like this bcos no matter how i see it, its always going to be my fault that all this had to happen. that we would be in a better place now if not for what i have done, that my H will be having the best vacation he can ever had if not for what i have done, that we would be back in Vancouver for a holiday if not for what i have done, that i can stay at my job while he went back home, come back here for work again and have a great time if not for what i have done.....i could go on and on. I am not wallowing in self pity here....i am just venting. I hate myself when i have PMS. Sorry.<p>H and i are trying to be calm now which is why i am here posting. If we carried on the conversation earlier, i would be here posting something different altogether. i am sorry that i am venting and blaming it on PMS. I hate when its that time of the month....i am sorry for everything thats happened that at a time like this and in my state of mind, i feel that i should be telling H to pack and leave so that he could be set free and go home to see his S and so that he can start a new life and find the true meaning of life.<p>someone out there, talk to me please....... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

dear gen- i have been following the threads. i cant really offer anything, i have all my own turmoil going on. i do commend you for what you are doing. i wish my wh would start to do SOMETHING. give your husband time. he has to process this as do you. its discussion time and poja time. you guys just need time to realize that this can be worked out TOGETHER. listen to your husband, he will let you know when its ok to talk about.<p>anyway i dont know if this helped-just know im listening. god bless and good luck

Gen,<p>I have been seeing perfectionism in some of the statements you have made.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>posted by GenevieveM:
which is still not a reason to be LBing <hr></blockquote><p>There are others I could point to. It is all very subtly perfectionism. Now, you have very little room for mistakes, granted. But you are still learning. Some of what you say isn't excuses. It's more a question of how to deal with that. You aren't necessarily supposed to know how to deal with everything. You need others and God to help you learn to deal with things. PMS shouldn't be an excuse. You should learn to deal while PMSing. But you should seek to learn, not deride. That's just how I took it. As you can tell, I'm very literal. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Love,<p>Hoping

Posted by nikko:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> i cant really offer anything, i have all my own turmoil going on. i do commend you for what you are doing. i wish my wh would start to do SOMETHING. give your husband time. he has to process this as do you. its discussion time and poja time. you guys just need time to realize that this can be worked out TOGETHER. listen to your husband, he will let you know when its ok to talk about. <hr></blockquote><p>Nikko, just knowing there i someone listening to me reminds me that i am not alone. Thank you for your advice and i am sorry that you are also going through turmoil. hang in there, we are all here for you too. i am giving my H time as he has with me but we are working this out on a time frame bcos of the nature of his job and the circumstances surrounding the A that i had. All in all, as much as i am taking steps towards healing and getting better, a new challenge crops up unexpectedly. As if Fate and Destiny got together and decided to put us through another obstacle course. I wish you well with your H.<p>
Posted by H4F:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now, you have very little room for mistakes, granted. But you are still learning. Some of what you say isn't excuses. It's more a question of how to deal with that. You aren't necessarily supposed to know how to deal with everything. You need others and God to help you learn to deal with things. PMS shouldn't be an excuse. You should learn to deal while PMSing. But you should seek to learn, not deride. <hr></blockquote><p>i am still learning H4F and i know that every day when i wake up and everytime i am breathing. yes, the question is how i deal with it. I also know that i am not necessarily supposed to know how to deal with everything but sometimes i feel that i HAVE to know. Quoting my H, i have been morally bankrupt all my life and if i can know how to do something like that, i ought to know how to do the opposite as well. I am also aware that i need the help of others to guide me and help me along bcos i have never had anyone show me whats right from wrong...perhaps i was also never paying attention. i am sorry if i kept mentioning PMSing....its not an excuse and i shall not mention that again. I was truly feeling down before and it all just came out that way. I will make an effort to not let things come out so easily anymore without consideration.<p>H and i just had another little talk and he told me that he has another appt with the PI tomorrow bcos the PI wants to see him. I know that he has nothing on me anymore, not esp about the last few days since i have been back to work. We discussed about it and we figure that there might be more in those taped conversations that H might have missed out or didnt listen to (i know he got sick and couldnt listen to anymore). I admitted that i did tell OM during a conversation with him that "i still love you" (which was information that i did not volunteer....) and that i was creating a drama with OM, letting him see that i was not having a good time with H bcos we were arguing everyday and that it was this "poor me" thing all over again.....i admitted wanting to leave that door open bcos i was not sure what was going to happen between me and H. i was never in love with OM, i know that what i was feeling felt like that but it was not love, but infatuation. The infatuation of being in my very own fantasy world with my rules. i was in control of everything in that world and i was in total control of OM....as i write this i am beginning to look into myself more and realise just how morally bankrupt i am to myself and to my H. Oh and by the way, H said that he should have an EA like i did so that he can fully understand what i have done or had to go through and i said that one EA will not suffice bcos i had EA's all my life with all my other boyfriends so one EA to will not be enough to understand something thats been there a long time.....There is so much work to be done....so much healing to be worked on, so much more that i can do.<p>We are now in a weird place bcos of this new development and if i had not done what i did, a lot of the problems that we are facing now wont exist....thank you for being there for me. I will keep u posted....tomorrow is a new day, i want it to be a good one....

Gen, I've been following your story but didn't post as you were getting excellent advice. I may have something to offer here: I am an obsessive person with strong perfectionist tendencies. So is my FWH! I've just got a book called "Too Perfect" which is amazing. I was cackling like a hyena all the way through, even when it hurt, because I recognised either myself or my H on every single page! Sometimes both of us... anyway, you might like to check that out. There is also a website. I used Google and typed in "obsessive personality" and some good stuff popped up.<p>See, I believe very firmly in the Harley principles, but I also realise that our early training and patterning, our personality types, and our baggage, may create shackles for us that make it difficult or impossible to move forward. So I'm working hard on my issues: codependency, adult child of alcoholic syndrome. I go to CoDependents Anonymous on Monday evenings and Adult Children of Alcoholics on Thursdays, see my IC every 2 weeks, and take Prozac. For the first time in longer than I can remember I can think freely, there's no pressure on my temples. For 6 weeks I have not had a migraine - since the Prozac kicked in. <p>The 12 step programmes really work. I'm still reading, reading, reading, and awaiting, in faith, the right sponsor. And my marriage is healing as I understand more and more of the dynamics that drive both me and my FWH. He benefits from my sharing of the information.

BTW, I do not believe you are "morally bankrupt." If this EA behaviour is a lifelong pattern, it's something you were taught to do. You can learn to do differently - it's a matter of retraining, just like a plumber can retrain and become a successful bank manager. It's a matter of DESIRE TO CHANGE, and the perseverance to learn to use new tools. There's plenty of help out there, much of it free. All the 12 step programmes are free.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> posted by jso
I've just got a book called "Too Perfect" which is amazing. <hr></blockquote><p>Do u have the name of the author? This books sounds great! i am sure that i could find me in there somewhere! By the way what are the 12-step programmes and where can i look that up? Can u find them on a website?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I do not believe you are "morally bankrupt." If this EA behaviour is a lifelong pattern, it's something you were taught to do. You can learn to do differently - it's a matter of retraining, It's a matter of DESIRE TO CHANGE, and the perseverance to learn to use new tools. <hr></blockquote><p>I hope that you're right about that...i have been told too many times by my H that i am and i am beginning to believe it. After all that i have done to him and the way it was all done, even before i met him, how i was before and what i used to do to myself, for myself and to others, without worry of consequence, does that not sound like being morally bankrupt? I dunno if i was "taught" anything....it could have been peer pressure, wrong choice of friends or learning from examples of others who are just as dysfunctional. I cannot point fingers at anyone bcos i was still my own person and i should not have let others influence me. But it did and that has led me to become that guly person inside. i am learning to do differently and with MBers like yourself and everyone who have been following my posts and offering such excellent advice and support, my learning process will be a good one. I do have the DESIRE TO CHANGE jso, its a desire like no other that i have ever had. everyday the desire is there stronger and stronger each day...esp now when we are having so many obstacles to overcome. Keep posting and good luck to you! You sound so confident and happy and i will check out any websites that u think might help me in any way. Thanks!

Morally bankrupt is a condition that we all have. We all have deficiencies of some sort.<p>In my quote:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> You should learn to deal while PMSing. But you should seek to learn, not deride. <hr></blockquote><p>I was just saying that you need to learn, and when you say something that may sound like an excuse, ask a question. Do not deride yourself by saying, "I know that's no excuse..." You may get some useful information using this approach, and it doesn't hold yourself accountable for something you have not learned yet. Does this make sense?

Here's a link to the book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0449908003/002-3776788-8272060<p>websites:
www.codependents.org<p>http://www.psyweb.com/Mdisord/ocpd.html<p>12 step programs
http://www.geocities.com/stanice1/<p>I didn't mean to imply that you should blame anybody else. Each of us has to accept full accountability for who we are and what we do, because we have free will. Also, while nobody actively TAUGHT you that lying and cheating are okay, you probably LEARNT it from living with and interacting with the significant people in your life. <p>However, it is much easier to dismantle something and rebuild it properly when you understand why the something doesn't work. Just like a microwave. Maybe something is loose here, perhaps a new part is needed there. And like a microwave, the labour is what takes longest and costs most!!<p>I've found that just understanding has helped me tremendously. For example, my panic attacks stopped instantly once I researched the actual physical process. So somehow I built in a biofeedback STOP! And now that I have recognised and publicly admitted (in my groups) that I am co-dependent and obsessive and I have recognised how I got to be that way, I can intelligently and effectively concentrate on getting to be different, instead of being stuck in a hazy fog of fear and ignorance. Sitting around blaming one's grandfather for this gene, or one's mother for that abusive behaviour is a way of copping out. See it, learn from the message, and take action.<p>Compulsive lying is often a defense mechanism arising from very poor self-esteem, as is stubborn insistence on doing everything YOUR way. <p>Hang in, Gen. If you can dream it, you can work out how to do it!

yet another site!<p>http://www.salon.com/sex/letters/2001/11/27/tenn_letters1/<p>Gen, I was a compulsive liar once. Don't have time for the details, but I did stop. I realised that only truth can set you free.

Posted by jso
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Compulsive lying is often a defense mechanism arising from very poor self-esteem, as is stubborn insistence on doing everything YOUR way. <hr></blockquote><p>I couldnt have expressed it better...i remember when i first started posting here under the name compulsiveliar, there were only very few people who told me that compulsive lying is a defense mechanism arising from poor self-esteem....everything u said in those lines above have brought back memories of who i used to be and how often i want things my way and how much of defense mechanism my lying had become....i am learning to deal with myself now...its not easy and i am not saying that it will be, but its not easy exorcising the part of me that was so ingrained in my system for as long as i can remember....but i am learning everyday.<p>Posted by H4F:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You may get some useful information using this approach, and it doesn't hold yourself accountable for something you have not learned yet. Does this make sense? <hr></blockquote><p>I think its beginnging to make some sense to me. Am i being naive or stupid if i ask for you to give me an example of not deriding myself? i am learning something new everyday H4F and i thank you for being there to help me. I thank all of you in fact!<p>Talk to u later...i am using the company's internet to write this and dont wanna be caught so i better go!

juststartingover.....<p>just wanted to tell you that i checked out the links to the sites but was unable to open a couple of them. Dont know what it is but it could be bcos i am using a Mac (??)....not very tech savvy so i am not sure why i couldnt open them. Oh well, i will try them again later.<p>Also, the book you recommended sounds interesting! i am definitely buying it!<p>Thanks! keep em coming!