lim,<p>I hope you are feeling better and your H's taking good care of you.<p>I had a meeting with my lawyer yesterday to go over the phone records. I had my W's cell and OM's home records, but not OM's cell records.
The stack was quite a bit thick and it will take me a while to go through them, but there weren't as many calls to OM as I thought there would be. However, there were a ton of calls from her cell to her work voice mail, and alot of calls from his home to her work voice mail. Her cell records went thru 2/8/02 with the last call to OM on 2/6/02. I'll have to go through it more thoroughly, but there is still contact. If nothing else, I have proof she's lying about that.<p>Interesting development though. My lawyer told me my W's lawyer said that my W doesn't want this D. That's news to me. I asked my lawyer if she was sure about that. She said that's the impression she got, but she would clarify it, so she prepared a letter to him to confirm if that is correct. So that's a strange turn, huh? I'm not getting my hopes up because it could just be a miscommunication between the lawyers or my W could just be playing the victim for her lawyer. <p>Get well soon!!!<p>sad dad

SD, may I ask how you obtained your W's cell phone records? A friend of mine is going thru something similar and is trying to obtain his W's records. Am I correct in assuming that you have to get a court order to subpoena her records?<p>And can cell phone records be used as proof of adultery?<p>Thanks!

susie,<p>I did have them subpeonaed, but if your friend's W's cellphone provider offers online billing, you may also be able to view them online. Depends on the provider.<p>No, they cannot prove adultery, but they can prove a relationship. What weight that has legally, I don't know. In my case it's something I needed to do for my own peace of mind.<p>sad dad

Hey SD- thanks for the well wishes I certainly need those! I am slowly on the mend here. My 4 yr old son has no mercy on me being sick though! I am glad to see you finally got to examine those phone records. I know I would have asked to see the same if our divorce case had gone on.I still have all of OW's phone numbers from both here and her new state she lives in.She keeps them unlisted ( of course!) but I was able to get them off the phone bills since I get the mail. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I think its a good idea too about that letter from your lawyer to clarify if this is truly what your W wants. Avoids those MESSY home scenes! It could be that she is freaking about how the A will affect her getting custody.( not that she would admit this to you of course) Do you suspect that OM is divorced by now or will soon be? You could check the county court records to find out where he is in the process-those are usually online and available to the public if you know the county website address. Do you think she has intention to marry him if she goes thru with the D? If his D is dragging along or he has changed his mind maybe that is influencing hers. Something to think about!Of course- I certainly hope you two will be able to reconcile that is ALWAYS best! Take care- LIM

sd, interesting...I am gonna throw out some stuff, this is not advice per se, just conjecture...don't know how much longer I will be here (MB) so figured I'd pass this to you now.<p>It seems pretty obvious, and has for awhile the divorce is dead far as wife is concerned, I suspect it is cause the om pulled away, and/or is in the process of dumping her (was never really sincere, as most people aren't in infidelity), probably cause you made the cost of this fantasy event too high. She has been struggling for months with whether to simply go it alone, or give in to your plan a (which has been a good one) and settle. Certain temperments do not do well with settling, feels ...well... I can't really explain it to you (is an emotional thing, not analytical), but sorta like dieing.<p>I suspect at some point she will start cooperateing with you more, figuring she will just make the best of it, and do it for the D. This will not really be fair to any of you, and she will go turtle, and bury her emotions very very deep...don't let her do that. If she is ever to resolve the issues that made her leave the marriage and choose om, now is the time, serious counselling (IC and MC) should be a condition of recovery, not just an agreement to play nice. If not done, she may very well breed resentment toward you over the years, and it will impact not only her mental health, but the marriage in many subtle ways, or take it to crisis again 20 years from now, etc. She does not want to be married to you, the om was only a sympton, she feels trapped and isolated emotionally (which is why she never talks to you)...I don't know why she doesn't trust you, whether it is her, or you, or some combination thereof, but it must be addressed.... you already know all my thoughts about fit, and that some things cannot be "decided" do with that as you will....but if your wife does not get to a place where she chooses you freely, and above all others, but only lives a picture with you, or cooperates with mutual needs meeting, she will not be in-love with you ever, you must decide whether that is important to you or not....<p>How do you tell? If I understand your w right (and I may not) she is the kind that must be set free, completely free, and then choose to pursue you, bercause she wants too, not cause she has too, or is suppose too, or is doing it for your daughter. Difficult to do with a young child, cause her needs transcend you and wifes relationship, and therein lies the danger, and why staying together for kids is a very risky relational decision.... You have had the advantage of a glimpse into the future, this would have probably happened when daughter had grown up...now you hadf a chance to look at yourself, and get a glimpse deep into your w psyche, she hasn't shown you much...but if the day comes she shows you everything inside her, then you have her....if not, well, you have to decide what you will settle for.<p>Again, this is all conjecture, just ignore it if you think it doesn't apply. Good luck<p>btw I foreget if om is m or single, if m his wife needs to know all this too (if doesn't yet) otherwise she is the real victim, at least everyone else gets to make choices, she has none, so it is a duty she be told.<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

lim,<p>As far as I know, OM is divorced. I have called his house a few times in the past and a woman only answered once, that was a long time ago. I can have my lawyer find out. Don't know that it really matters.<p>snl,<p>As usual, you gave me alot to think about, some of it way beyond my comprehension, but appreciated nonetheless. <p>"It seems pretty obvious, and has for awhile the divorce is dead far as wife is concerned"...<p>Was this a typo, did you mean "marriage" is dead? If not, what do you mean by this?<p>I'm not going to get ahead of myself. Yesterday really changed nothing, even if my lawyer was correct. There would be soooo much work to do.
We'll see what happens.<p>Thanks,
sad dad

no typo, I meant divorce was dead. I am a pattern person sd, and I do most of my understanding of folks and situations by what is not said, than by what is said..... I call it seeing between the words....don't know how to explain it, is just what I do, and works for me.<p>She had done little or nothing to further the divorce, probably custody having a lot to do with it....but also I am pretty sure she has come to realize the om is not marriage material...which is good, is a learning experience for her....now the question is will she open up to anyone and get to the bottom of who she is....your changes (I assume needed, and demonstrably permanent) have changed her perception of the marriage, she just doesn't know what to do, so she is stuck, and just goes to work, and takes care of basic stuff...the default for most people. You are the key, you have been doing a good job of balancing needed change (without asking for quid pro quo, which is essential with people like your w, and me), little LB'ing, coercion, or woe is me...so she gets a good look at who you really are. But she isn't doing her own work, seeing who she is, she tried to run away instead, if you can make it safe for her to look at herself, she might. That involves a lot of forbearance on your part, cause you have to set her free (meaning stay or leave, you will always be her friend), but still be a safe place for her.....and maybe I am all wet, she may just be a selfish nutso controller, but anyways that is what it feels like to me..<p>I think you are approaching a time of negotiation with her, where you can pull all this together, the divorce, the needs of your child, emotional space for her, different expectations from you.....she is scared sd, scared she will give in, spend another 20 years, and still not feel safe and connected to you (and maybe with good reason, you know I don't think everyone fits just cause they want too), you can't help her with that...she needs to work on it, and articulate it to herself, and work through it...all you can do is watch, and be supportive, and that is not fair to you, but it is how it works.

snl,<p>Believe it or not, I actually understood your last post. Maybe I'm not a pea-brain after all.
At this point, I'd just like to get some dialogue going. I guess it's up to me to get the ball rolling. Obviously everything that's happened the past 16 months can't be swept under the rug and will need to be addressed, but it doesn't have to be now. I'd much rather talk about how we got to the point we were at 16 months ago and deal with that. The A, OM, divorce, etc. are issues that can be addressed if and when we ever start to talk and rebuild that emotional bond. If we can't, than none of that really matters. <p>sad dad<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: sad dad ]</p>

Hi SD- I think what SNL is trying to point out is that your W may not want to be married right now OR get a divorce and is stuck between the two in her mind.My H was like this for some time- even after ending the A for the last time and going to counseling with me a few times- he just SAT there like an ant stuck in honey on a log. The counselor would ask," Do you want to participate?" and H would say he didnt know if he wanted to or not. The longer he was out of the influence of OW the more committed he was to saving our marriage.Without the WS"s desire to do the work there really is no relationship to save at that point anyhow. Of course by THAT point I had begun to emotionally detach from him and doubted alot that he even wanted me and that began a year long roller coaster of emotions for me where I would even test him to see if he intended to leave me again- ie.--running the credit card balances way up knowing he is totally frugal.I definitely expected him to say to me, "Well I"m done with you now that you ran up those bills!" I was shocked when he was mad about it but didnt threaten D. I dont necessarily agree with SNL about the part that the WS stays with the BS just out of default though. No one is holding the door shut at our house.my H tells me he loves me, wants to be with me forever etc. If my H wants to leave he already has his attorney all lined up and at this point I am more emotionally strong and I wouldnt be a total basket case like I was last year if he did. LIM

Hi SD- I think what SNL is trying to point out is that your W may not want to be married right now OR get a divorce and is stuck between the two in her mind.She rushed full steam ahead into an EA/PA that promised to solve all her problems and now has to admit to herself that it hasn't. It only makes more problems.My H was like this for some time- even after ending the A for the last time and going to counseling with me a few times- he just SAT there like an ant stuck in honey on a log. The counselor would ask," Do you want to participate?" and H would say he didnt know if he wanted to or not. The longer he was out of the influence of OW the more committed he was to saving our marriage.Without the WS"s desire to do the work there really is no relationship to save at that point anyhow. Of course by THAT point I had begun to emotionally detach from him and doubted alot that he even wanted me and that began a year long roller coaster of emotions for me where I would even test him to see if he intended to leave me again- ie.--running the credit card balances way up knowing he is totally frugal.I definitely expected him to say to me, "Well I"m done with you now that you ran up those bills!" I was shocked when he was mad about it but didnt threaten D. I dont necessarily agree with SNL about the part that the WS stays with the BS just out of default though. No one is holding the door shut at our house.my H tells me he loves me, wants to be with me forever etc. If my H wants to leave he already has his attorney all lined up and at this point I am more emotionally strong and I wouldnt be a total basket case like I was last year if he did. LIM

lim,<p>I guess I can understand that. I've got to assume my lawyer misinterpreted what my W's lawyer said until I know otherwise, but I am going to bring it up and give her the chance to talk about it. I just need to think about how I'm going to approach the subject and what I'm going to say. I'd rather her be on the fence or in limbo than aggressively pursuing the D. When I do bring it up if she insists that she wants this D, then I'll talk to her about selling the house. If she tells me she is having second thoughts, then I'll tell her we can discuss it when she's ready. I will not pressure her on this, I just want some progress one way or another.<p>sad dad

bump

Hi SD- how are you? I wanted to let you know I am going away for a wk to visit my BIL. It is my kids spring break from school. BIL owns a nice hair salon so we're all going to get free haircuts ( YAY!) and maybe I can talk him into hilighting my hair too. ( its already blonde but not as blonde as I'd like!) Hope you get thru the wk okay- I should be back on the puter next Friday and if I can I"ll check this site on BIL's puter if I get a chance. Take care- LIM

lim,<p>Have a good trip. You deserve the pampering. I'll keep you posted if anything develops. Take care!<p>sad dad