if you've been following conqueroe's thread you kinda know the story. i have a new problem now. i made out a list of all the things i was angry about, so i could hopefully start to deal with them and left it home yesterday. when i got home last nite it was gone. i eventually asked wh if he had seen my notebook and he said "I put it up ther, "son" was on the computer and i didn't want him seeing it." i know he read it or he wouldnt have wanted to move it. he hides all this from the kids, very afraid anyone will find out. so i know he read it.<p>this is what it said:
i am angy because
our vows are meaningless
i realized how selfish you are
i have no trust
i dont trust anything i use to belive in
i feel violated
i dont feel safe
i dont trust my own instincs
all the lies and deceit
you did this purposefully to hurt me-which means you did it knowingly.(his words repeatedly)
i am still emotionally isolated
i feel as if you shared your emotions with her
i still feel unimportant
i don't respect you
i am FOREVER changed.<p>he read all this, and had nothing to say. was i wrong for putting how i feel down on paper? i know i wasn't but now we are gonna tap dance around this too. i just dont know what to do anymore. i was gonna try to get back into a strong plan A again, its been a little weak lately. i feel myself distancing myself for protection. he hasnt been meeting my needs and ive been jumping through hoops. so i figured i'd try again. back around d-day i said i would give it 5 months, not realizing that 5 months was exactly our 10 yr anniv. that sucks. but i have to give it another shot, just need the encouragement to do so. what do you all think?

ya know,
I read a thing once that said women can think of multiple things at once, guys think of one thing at a time.
Give it time to sink in to him. I think you should write more in it and wait for him to read it. Pretend to hide it to peak his curiosity.
Hmm how to kill a hippo. Did you know more people have died from hippo atacks than other african animals?
Maybe a small worm or insect could infect it with a slow debilitating desease.
Yes, I believe thats the answer. Give the bug (journal) time to reach the blood system.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
L

dear sp- this is a man who is acting like life is grand. well for him i guess it is. he's having his en's met and beyond. acts as if nothing happened. my life is in total devestation and he keeps plodding along whistling a happy tune. do you really think this will sink in? if he can ignore the affair and its devastion this ought to be a breeze.

any other suggestions??

You know, it is just to easy to ignore another person's pain when you don't feel it. I have noted for years that this is true in my own R. I have a spouse that is just oblivious to all. I try to find ways to share that pain in a way that they can understand and feel. My very favorite is if someone at their work does something that makes them hurt and it is similar to something they do, show them how it is the same. They can relate to the pain.<p>Secondly, this game of using notebooks and such is just plain dishonest. If you are feeling what you wrote, then nail it to his head directly. Bring it up directly and if you get ignored, then you have your answer. Some people don't get it because they just don't want to. When that happens, you may just have to take the step of walking away to help them feel the pain.

Dearest Nikko:<p>I think journaling is a healthy way to *purge* your emotions without continually lovebusting your spouse. However, I do think that you should take more care in where you place your journal [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>If you have a need for your H to understand your feelings, and wish for him to read your journal, communicate to him WHY you are keeping a journal (ie: I feel <release, empowered, healthier, etc.> when I am able to write my feelings down) and then let him know that you are open to him reading/discussing what you've written. Or, perhaps he would be willing to journal "with you" and either respond in writing to your entry or write an entry of his own. COULD POSSIBLY BE A STARTING POINT?<p>Even if he chooses not to participate, if YOU NEED THIS to help you deal with your emotions, then CONINUE this practice for yourself. However, please realize that your H may not be ready to deal with your emotions (not because he doesn't care how you feel), but because it would require him to take a good, hard look at himself-- and perhaps he's not ready to do this for himself yet.<p>BTW, don't forget to journal the *good* that continues to be ever present. Use your journal to vent-- but also use it to keep you on track of what YOU WANT. FOCUS on what is truly important to you-- right now, at this very moment.<p>Yes, it's helpful to state the obvious: I am hurt and angry because our vows have been broken-- but don't forget to state what you're WISHING for....My HOPE is that I WILL FIND THE STRENGTH TO FORGIVE YOU. My HOPE is that we CAN REBUILD OUR FAMILY. My HOPE is that I CAN BE KIND and LOVING to YOU. My HOPE IS THAT WE CAN HOLD HANDS. <p>For every vent, attempt to address what is GOOD and RIGHT in the world-- even if the only thing that seemed right was the fact that your coffee stayed hot up until the very last drop-- even if the only good thing *right* was the fact that the cat puked up a hairball on the linoleum -vs- the carpet [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>And, remember that it's okay to have the elephant and the hippo in the room-- just don't attempt to force everyone to admit that they can *see* it too...because, for them, maybe it doesn't really exist (yet), or perhaps they *see* an entirely different animal.<p>Peace, ~Marie<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]</p>

ok first of all i wasnt playing games with this notebook. i saw on someone's thread that it helped them to write down what they were angry at so they could deal with them. i believe they put in the firplace when they were done dealing. i simply made a list on a notebook i keep by comp. to write down addresses and such-links etc.. its not a journal. i have one of those and he knows it. he can read it anytime. i dont keep secrets. this was supposed to be to try to help me heal. and believe me i know i cant make him see the elephant or hippo-they could sh!! on his head and i dont think he would notice.
im sorry i just seem to be at the end of my hope. feel very blah, cant seem to get out of it and this isnt helping.

Dear Nikko:<p>I'm confused. What do you want, or need, to hear from us?<p>YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO EXPRESS YOUR FEELINGS. <p>I did not intend-- nor do I believe that others intended-- to cause you more pain, to use the wrong words, or to make false assumptions.<p>Would you like for me to delete my message? <p>Peace, ~Marie

Nikko,<p>I was not trying to suggest that you were playing games with the notebook. Someone had suggested that you write your thoughts and leave them to be seen. I am merely saying that if you feel the things that you wrote, it is time to hit him with them as hard as you can.<p>I can sense that you are very tired from all of this and that is perfectly understandable. <p>I really believe that the best course always is to be brutally honest in a setting that doesn't allow for hedging. If he doesn't want to bring things up, bring them up yourself in a forum where he can't hide from it.<p>Make the elephant in the room un-ignorable.

im not mad at you guys-i appreciate the input. i never said i left it intentionally-i made a mistake-i do that, look at my life. on tues. i work a 15 hr. day- im a bit cranky on wed. sorry. leaving it was a mistake. i was on comp. and when i shut down i forgot to take it with me. i didnt want him to see it because if youve read any of my other threads he is emotionally retarded. thats the counselours term. real conflict avoider. i know this hurt him which wasnt my intention-it was supposed to help me. i finally do something for me and look....<p>anyway if you can tell me how to "nail it to his forehead" without love busting-please by all means do. some say confront, confront, confront! while others say just plan A away and the relationship talks will come later. im confused, thats all. its frustrating. and if i do confront and he avoids.... and i have my answer...then what?? throw his unrecoverable azz out. if thats what i wanted i would have done it on d-day. i want him to get help for himself. i want him to heal too. neither of which i can do for him, with him yes, but not for him. now he wont go to counseling because years ago he had a dui(when he was 18) had to do overnite in a rehab for getting his licsence back-the insurance company wont pay for his counseling because they are saying this is pre-existing condition. he has to get papers from old ins. co. which by the way is bankrupt and out of business-yes we had to pay all bills on our own because they screwed all the docs and hospitals-and have NO way of finding any of them because they no longer exist. so i can hear it now-they arent gonna pay so i cant go. this is why i sound cranky- not you guys.

going to take a nap now-maybe that will help-check back later.

Nikko,<p>Nailing to his forehead means be brutally honest. What is it you feel? You have written these things and now you know he has seen them. Ask him point blank, have you read this? If so, how do you justify the actions that cause my feelings?<p>Be direct, be firm. I don't necessarily like the term confront, but sometimes a good solid confrontation resolves issues that would simmer for years otherwise. <p>Clearly, you have a lot of hurt feelings. What do you want to do about that? What actions could your H do to restore the M for you? <p>Why be diplomatic with this? All I am suggesting is that you deal with your H on a very honest level.<p>Hope that helps!

dear spt_fl- i understand what you are saying but i dont think you are listening to me-he is a conflict avoider-i have had conversations before with him-the last being on vacation in fla. a week ago when i found out he purposely kept something from me-nothing big or important,didnt even have to do with us. i had asked him point blank about a situation and he told me he knew nothing, and i go to find out he knew it all. he made a conscious choice not to tell me. when we talked about it i tried to explain that his keeping anything from me is unacceptable-his response was we just look at things differently.(yeah like our wedding vows) he didnt understand that it wasnt what was kept from me-just that he chose to keep something from me. it all came out-i walked away knowing the situation wasnt gonna change, went down the beach and sat in the sand and cried for 1 1/2 hrs. realized while i was sitting there i had enough. went back and had a wonderfull vacation, didnt let this ruin it. he noticed the change in me and mentioned it a nite or two later. said i was happy before we left- i asked "why do you think i was so happy- his answer after a few min. of thinking was-I CHOSE YOU DIDNT I??? he's lucky i didnt kill him there. he doesnt get it-probably never will without prff. couns. he had emotional issues other than this. so im banging my head against the wall with conversations. he dont get it.

oh yeah-what do i want- i would love a husband who actively participated in recovery. not just lets forget it and move on. and when i say participate i mean do anything.

Nikko,
When I post somethign like this Leilana always asks me when my deadline is.. how long till I go into plan B. I dont know.. does this apply here? I think plan A is you stick inthere as long as you can before you try to go and protect yourself from further harm..<p>My wife recently realized she has to give an effort to recovery so we can stop living in uncertainty and pain. (I guess it would have been a major LB to say CRIPES WOMAN THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING) Sorry getting to my point.. she made that desicion after I made a little bit of a stand. I offered to help her move out, even move in with Om if thats what she truely wants. I told her I wasnt sure how much I had left in me and I wanted us to move on one way or another.<p>Now im not saying this is what you should do of course in the least... I did this after finding she was talking to the OM and had been lieing to me for the last 3 months.<p>
I dunno maybe he just has to realize things will NOT stay the way they are now. <p>Good luck my friend!<p>-HI

dear hangin- i have a deadline-after d-day i said 5 months. i thought i could do it that long. what i didnt realize is exactly 5 months from d-day is 10 yr. anniv. that sucks. may have to rethink that one!
i allready have made the decision that i will not stay if this doesnt change-i deserve better. this all came to me on a peaceful beach in fla. i was in tears-he was getting a tan.
i guess after the acceptance of that i did kinda change. i wasnt gonna let this or his affair ruin my vacation-wh won trip from work,this place was right out of lifestyles of the rich and famous. i started enjoying myself regardless of him. he noticed, thats what led to the second conversation about the i chose you-oh lucky me.
i think it made him nervous. after all that he said we would talk when we got home-well that hasnt happened either. so here i am. i do have a plan for myself and my kids. i have to protect them and me.
i am gonna try plan a'ing again till the deadline. if he doesnt reach out to me by then...i guess its off to plan b.
how are you guys doing-im not sure mine isnt in contact either.

nikko..
I'm sorry you did post that earlier about 5 months. thats right well you could always make it 6 months as that is what harley suggests in SAA. Not that you'd want to drag it on much longer....<p>I'm glad you enjoyed the vacation despite him. As best they may seem to try we cant let the WS's get us down. <p>As for contact.. it hard to tell what is suspicion that we have and what is a real red flag. I had some strong suspicions earlier and I posted them.. most of them were a sudden break in depression or her worrying again that I was doing too much and she didnt deserve it. (now I know why she thought she didnt.. becuase she DIDNT)Another big thing was she stoped saying I love you, when she had cleared that hurdle a little while ago.
Eventually though she tripped herself up.<p>listen carefully to him I guess. call him on things innocently and unaccusingly and you may catch him in a lie. You get so tired of doing this im sure you know..<p>Hey Nikko, you are worth a billion times that.
one day at a time I guess. I truely hope he straightens out, because you are a wonderful person and you and your children deserve much better than how he is treating you now.<p>Regarding me:
Well all that stuff I posted about happened monday... her "big change" in attitude came yesterday. Im still skeptical.
I guess we are ok I havent seen her too much since i am working late which end up being opposite shifts till friday. I think earlier on I would be out of my mind buggy because of all the time she is home alone. But I think Im more resolved in the fact I have a plan and Im moving on with or without her.<p>Your friend!
-HI<p>Hey on a side note... cooking/preparing question!
Im in a food rut as far as lunches go. I usually make lunch for us both for our workdays and I stick with either 1) leftovers 2) tunafish and rice or 3) sandwich (tunafish, eggsalad,pbj) and a bunch of snacks. Do you have anything neat that you like to make for lunches? Hot (needed to be heated) or cold ideas.

Nikko,
First, I loved your title -- Unfortunately, I am on a tight schedule & do not have the time right now to read all your replies and the like.
I want to say that I like the idea of the list.
I believe that many times people natuarally attribute a lot of these things to guy or gal issues. I am the guy and the BS. I have had all the feeling you listed & my DW (D=darling or darn) has been in deep denial of sorts -- not sure what best description is actaully, but I know she does not want to accept responsibility of what she did & she has resisted any real recovery strategies, except those that suit her needs -- "sweep it under the rug & move on" is her thing. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
But I know in my case it is extremely difficult to discuss these things without it becoming a battle & I have found that she has responded to things I have had in my briefcase, it seems more than things I have left out -- this goes back several months.
Anyway, I feel for your pain and I know it may seem like it will never end, but be patient, it's a long and bumpy road, but stay focused on you & your needs to recover -- I have found it is rare for the WS to cooperate much -- [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] -- I still don't have it figured out --perhaps a BS has always been more the giver & the WS the taker & a lack of respect (or they take us for granted!)comes form this, then, when they get busted, their seemingly dominant "self interest" motive takes over & they don't want to jump into recovery perhaps for fear that it will reinforce or magnify their guilt & they just don't want to face that!
I vent all the time about my situation, but try to understand that our WS's have a sickness of sort & we can't be responsible for their recovery, just ours.
BTW, I many times feel I have the whole Safari in the room complete with weapons, comeras and tents and we just go on our merry way! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Life in the jungle!
Somehow, IMHO, I believe you have to keep your lists away form your children though. They are feeling the brunt of this I am sure, even if you have not spoken of this to them -- they have a way of sensing things are not right. Sad, but true --
Give them some extra love and attention!
My prayers are with you!
HH

dont have much time to post right now-thanks for the replies. good to hear from you HI-i will get back to you on the luch thing. let me think about it. ill give an update later-the zebra has joined the group!

Nikko,<p>I am dealing with conflict avoidance as well. If anyone here knows how to get the spouse to get serious about the R and stop conflict avoiding, I would love to hear about it.<p>It appears to me that the only way most of these marriages get corrected is when they end. Is it just me? I see all these people trying very hard and their spouse does nothing. Only when the people give up and walk away does the spouse suddenly come alive, if then. I am beginning to think that when this comes up, you walk away.<p>Maybe I am just bummed.